Mapman,
My CD player is an Oppo 981HD. The amp is Outlaw 990/7500 (ATI). So my 200s are limited to 200W/ch.
The Oppo is recognized for video. I'm curious as to what a player focused on standard CDs would do. |
I lived with a set of F's for a year in the 70s. Like most others, I became "imprinted" with the stunning 3-D imaging, smooth frequency response, and wide sweet area.
There were other speakers with more brightness and detail, but at moderate volumes (70-80db) for long periods of time, to my ears, nothing compared to the F's.
I recently learned that Ohm sell their latest drivers for many of their older models. Being well aware that the new drivers are not the same design as the original F Walsh, I talked with John Strohbeen about my experience with the F's.
John never said that the new models were the same as the F's. He did say that in some ways, they were better, and that I should listen to them for myself. Not an unexpected response from the designer and owner of the company, but what was the risk to try... shipping them back if I didn't like them.
I found a set of FRS-11s on eBay for a good price and ordered the 200 Series 3 upgrade.
I perceive the "color" of the sound to be somewhat different than the original F's. I think this is the subjective part that each listener has to evaluate individually. To my ears, the results are still very pleasant.
On the first few tracks I listened to, it seemed to me like the bass was restrained. Then I listened to a well recorded track with loud and deep bass content and I felt the old Ohm punch again. I had forgotten what playback without over-emphasized mid-bass sounded like.
Since the room they are in has an irregular shape and is half-open to living space behind, the bass response varies according to listening position. As you might expect, the more enclosed parts of the listening space have louder bass. I may add a subwoofer to the open part of the listening space for better bass balance across the entire width of the listening room.
These speakers do not provide intense focus and detail. Decades ago, we used to call that a "bright" or "West Coast" sound. I always found it somewhat unrealistic and tiring after an hour. To me, the color of a live performance has always been driven by the acoustics of the room. I perceive these speakers as very realistic in comparison to live performances. As an example, I compare the sound of voices from the speakers to the sound of voices from people speaking in the room.
What I think I enjoy most is walking across the room and hearing the 3d image shift as it would for a live performance. After almost 30 years, it's a return to speakers that give the experience of "being there".
It's been almost a month, and I'm very happy with the results. |
I also had a couple of "small shop" issues. Ohm was very responsive and everything ended up fine.
I look at it as investing a little of my time in exchange for getting what I wanted at a great value.
As you read through this thread, you will notice a variety of concerns that some people have about these speakers. I find it interesting how much factors other than "how do they sound" rank for some.
If a particular design spec, a particular appearance, or a crisp sales experience are high priorities, you may want to look elsewhere. My top priority was getting the "Walsh sound" I experienced 30 years ago. I'm happy that I've been able to get very close to that. |
Mapman,
Can you describe the changes you perceived after break-in? How long did it take? I'm thinking that I should avoid tinkering such as upgrading the CD player until the sound has stabilized.
I've been thinking about a Cambridge Audio 840C.
Thanks! |
Tvad,
Sorry to hear you were disappointed.
You have to go with your own take on what is worth it. |
Mapman,
What size room are your 5's in? When you were running them full out, were you monitoring the power output of your amp, or measuring in some other way? I ask because I'm really not sure how to determine where full out really is, or if I could even stand it without ear protection or risk disturbing the neighbors. I find it uncomfortable to listen at much more than 85db for any period of time. Do you measure sound pressure? |
My 200 series 3s are in a den that is 2/3 open to a nook/kitchen to the rear. The dimension on the open side is 15.5' x 35' x 8'. The closed-in 1/3 is 12 feet deep instead of 35. It amazes me how well the Ohms handle this. The only qualitative difference I notice from the closed side of the room to the open side is the bass level.
I measure 90db 10' back from the speakers with the Outlaw 990 reading "-10db". This is quite loud (not rock concert loud) but it is near my comfort limits. I've never heard any distortion the few times I've pushed it louder.
I have no idea how to tell how much of the amplifier's 250wpc at the S3's 6 ohms I am using. |
Unsound,
Ohm no longer uses the original Walsh drivers that were installed in the F's.
The new drivers are still mounted at the top of the box and fire down into it. The sound still radiates from the sides of the inverted cone. In the new design, this is not full range, and a front-diagonal-firing tweeter covers the high-end. The boxes are ported in the new design. For what it's worth, Ohm began using this new design in the 80s.
With my face close to the new driver, I can clearly hear the sound radiating from most of the circumference of the driver, except for the very high-end.
I still hear the same old deep, wide and realistic image that at this point, fills a very strangely shaped room, and is not focused at a single small sweet spot. No tilting speakers up or down, no adjusting chair position, etc.
Whether called the Walsh sound or the Ohm sound, this is the sound I was looking for. At this point I perceive the same imaging as with the old F's, but not quite the same timbre. The room the old F's were in was much smaller, more regularly shaped and had a carpeted concrete floor while today I am on wood floor. I suspect that may be contributing significantly to the different timbre I perceive.
We'll see what happens as they break in. They definitely play a lot louder than the old F's could. You also had to be careful with the old F's because they were easy to blow up with a bit too much power. |
Could you get good response off the back of a standard driver firing down into a cabinet?
If the answer is no, then they must be using something different than a standard driver.
If the answer is yes, then they've come up with a way to get "walsh sound" from a standard driver.
Either way is just fine by me. I only care about the sound. |
Dale,
I did understand your point. I found your treatise interesting.
My goal with these speakers was to achieve a certain sound.
If my goal had been to acquire something conforming to the original engineering design, I wouldn't have bothered with the trial.
When I considered Ohm's 30-year history of offering upgrades and support and the no-risk trial, there was little downside to hearing how the new and different design compared to the originals.
In spite of the obvious design differences between the current Walsh drivers and the original Lincoln Walsh design, I can tell you that the sound from the new series 3 drivers is close to the original F's. Not identical, but close. In some ways, better.
Kudos to you for pursuing your interest in the original design. I'm also curious how your drivers sound. I'll remain interested in how that effort progresses. |
Mapman,
I'm noticing quite a bit of "eq" difference as I move the speakers relative to the back wall. It seems to me that placing the speakers closer than 12-15 inches to the wall is related to the upper-midrange effect I was describing.
At 12-15 inches out, and forward of the 50" flat screen, it seems to open up quite a bit. Have you noticed anything similar? The shape of your room is quite different so this might not correlate. |
My thoughts exactly. It will be interesting to read the independent sonic performance reviews after a year of use.
Always wishing the best for anyone following their passion, especially engineers, I hope they turn out to be great. |
My one-month comparison:
My perception in comparing the F and Series 3 drivers is that the new drivers have a more powerful low-end. The tweeters have a louder very high-end although directional. The 200s play louder than the F's could. I wonder what the 300s sound like.
I perceive the upper midrange on the new drivers to be a little more restrained than the original F's. But this seems to me like a small variation on the original character, which did not have in-your-face midrange either.
In the room where I spent a year listening to the F's they provided gut-punch air movement as well. However, this was the fully-enclosed living room of a small apartment. I'd be surprised if they could do the same in the room I'm listening in now.
This morning I was experimenting with repositioning. I ended up standing directly between the two speakers, and out of the direct path of the tweeters. I could still perceive the 3d soundstage arced widely in front of me.
Unsound, I guess the only way that you would be able to appreciate the significance of experiencing this "Walshness", the only "Walshness" that matters to me would be to hear it. Perhaps the sound of the speaker is less important to you than the implementation. |
It sounds like you do not notice any variation in tonal balance relative to position, is that correct?
If that is so, I may try experimenting in another room. Which would be quite an "exercise". 8-) |
Mapman,
I remember the 3d nature of the F's soundstage, but I cannot recall the forward/back placement.
My challenge in the current room is that I cannot place seating any farther than 11 feet back from the front wall, because of a 1/3 back wall.
|=========TV=======|
|====X=========X===|
|==================|
|==================|
|====SOFASOFASOFA=|
|==========wallwallwall|
|==========wwwwwww|
|==========wwwwwww
|==================|
| Continues for 20ft|
| to kitchen |
I suppose I could turn the setup 90 degrees so that the speakers are in the leg of the 'L', (I guess, kind of like you have it), but I really enjoy the sound from way back in the kitchen. |
Mapman,
Since the TV is about 56" wide, I can't move the speakers closer together without them standing in front of it. My CD/DVD source is the Oppo 981HD which has me considering an additional audio-only player like the Cambridge Audio 840C. My FM tuner is built-in to the Outlaw 990 and sounds similar to the oppo. Same with the music channels from the cable tv box. I'm using very cheap interconnects and the same 16 gauge lamp cord to the speakers I've had for 30 years.
I've using digital connections from the CD/DVD and the cable tv box.
I've always been a bit skeptical about the impact of cable changes, but your description has me thinking it might be worth checking out.
But it sounds like you are hearing close to what I am. Just as you described, I'd like to go a bit stronger in the upper midrange. |
Mapman,
It is interesting to me that running the speakers without the grille covers takes the upper midrange to just about what I'm after.
These are the original 20-year-old FRS-11 covers, so I wonder if more transparent cloth is available. |
Dale,
Thanks again for the great info,
Allowing for our fading memories, 8-)
how would you compare the sound of the new speakers to the originals?
Although your setup is well outside my budget, I look forward to hearing the feedback from those who can swing it.
This does give some weight to the idea that John Strohbeen had the goal of producing as much "Walsh-like" sound as possible at a lower price-point, with a max price of 6K new and much less for those upgrading. I guess I'm fortunate that this is exactly what I needed.
I hope you are feeling better soon, and best of luck with your new designs. If I lived near you, I would definitely go for a listen. |
