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objective vs. subjective rabbit hole

There are many on this site who advocate, reasonably enough, for pleasing one’s own taste, while there are others who emphasize various aspects of judgment that aspire to be "objective." This dialectic plays out in many ways, but perhaps the most obvious is the difference between appeals to subjective preference, which usually stress the importance of listening, vs. those who insist on measurements, by means of which a supposedly "objective" standard could, at least in principle, serve as arbiter between subjective opinions.

It seems to me, after several years of lurking on and contributing to this forum, that this is an essential crux. Do you fall on the side of the inviolability of subjective preference, or do you insist on objective facts in making your audio choices? Or is there some middle ground here that I’m failing to see?

Let me explain why this seems to me a crux here. Subjective preferences are, finally, incontestable. If I prefer blue, and you prefer green, no one can say either of us is "right." This attitude is generous, humane, democratic—and pointless in the context of the evaluation of purchase alternatives. I can’t have a pain in your tooth, and I can’t hear music the way you do (nor, probably, do I share your taste). Since this forum exists, I presume, as a source of advice from knowledgable and experienced "audiophiles" that less "sophisticated" participants can supposedly benefit from, there must be some kind of "objective" (or at least intersubjective) standard to which informed opinions aspire. But what could possibly serve better as such an "objective standard" than measurements—which, and for good reasons, are widely derided as beside the point by the majority of contributors to this forum?

To put the question succinctly: How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence without appealing to some "objective" criteria that, because they claim to be "objective," are more than just a subjective preference? What, in short, is the point of reading all these posts if not to come to some sort of conclusion about how to improve one’s system?

128x128snilf

Showing 2 responses by mitch2

mitch2
3,961 posts
 

How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence

IMO, rather than be persuaded, people should review both subjective opinions as well as objective measurements and specifications, compare those with their own experiences, and then come to their own conclusions.

However, any information on these forums could (should?) be viewed with healthy skepticism. Measurements can be both scientifically correct but also misleading in that the parameters being measured may or may not have the degree of impact on how something sounds as you might be "persuaded" to believe.

Likewise, subjective opinions rely on the experience and bias of the person providing the opinion. For example, how much reliance do you have in posters who report that the sound of their systems are "totally transformed" just about every time they install a new cable, fuse, or other tweek? Is that even possible, or are they just prone to exaggeration? When the same tweek fails to have a similar effect on the sound of your own system, common themes here are that your system is not resolving enough, or you didn’t let it burn in long enough, or maybe you just don’t hear well. I find it helpful when I am able to view the poster’s virtual system as their equipment choices provide some context or basis for their opinions, as do their previous posting history.

How about manufacturers who blur the lines between objective scientific facts and subjective hyperbole. As an example:

About the size of a shirt button, yet powerful enough to transform the way you experience music...your speakers and room disappear leaving you with nothing but a live holographic musical event in your listening room...

...oscillate at high frequencies creating an energy field in your room that overpowers room vibrational distortions to correct phase and frequency interactions for harmonic balance in your treated room. You hear an increase in depth and width, with clearer more extended highs, and tighter bass. Everything sounds more live, clearer, and more natural than you could ever imagine.

All of the above is claimed to result from placing 5 very small cylinders or discs ("the size of a shirt button") on the walls of the listening room and/or on the speakers - I find this an amazing blend of scientific claims and subjective rhetoric.

mitch2
3,961 posts
 

all I was suggesting is that, if a forum like this exists to share informed opinions about the quality of gear (and I think that is its main purpose), then those opinions should be "informed" by more than just personal preference. They should be supported by "objective" "facts."

Interesting suggestion @snilf, but the reality of this forum is that folks will post whatever they choose and even if there were an expectation to support subjective opinions with objective facts, those facts would be chosen by the individual posters resulting in debates about the authenticity, validity, and/or applicability of the supporting facts - bringing us right back to where we are now, regardless of philosophical musings.

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