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objective vs. subjective rabbit hole

There are many on this site who advocate, reasonably enough, for pleasing one’s own taste, while there are others who emphasize various aspects of judgment that aspire to be "objective." This dialectic plays out in many ways, but perhaps the most obvious is the difference between appeals to subjective preference, which usually stress the importance of listening, vs. those who insist on measurements, by means of which a supposedly "objective" standard could, at least in principle, serve as arbiter between subjective opinions.

It seems to me, after several years of lurking on and contributing to this forum, that this is an essential crux. Do you fall on the side of the inviolability of subjective preference, or do you insist on objective facts in making your audio choices? Or is there some middle ground here that I’m failing to see?

Let me explain why this seems to me a crux here. Subjective preferences are, finally, incontestable. If I prefer blue, and you prefer green, no one can say either of us is "right." This attitude is generous, humane, democratic—and pointless in the context of the evaluation of purchase alternatives. I can’t have a pain in your tooth, and I can’t hear music the way you do (nor, probably, do I share your taste). Since this forum exists, I presume, as a source of advice from knowledgable and experienced "audiophiles" that less "sophisticated" participants can supposedly benefit from, there must be some kind of "objective" (or at least intersubjective) standard to which informed opinions aspire. But what could possibly serve better as such an "objective standard" than measurements—which, and for good reasons, are widely derided as beside the point by the majority of contributors to this forum?

To put the question succinctly: How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence without appealing to some "objective" criteria that, because they claim to be "objective," are more than just a subjective preference? What, in short, is the point of reading all these posts if not to come to some sort of conclusion about how to improve one’s system?

128x128snilf

Showing 2 responses by gregm

gregm
3,396 posts
 

@mrmb  Thus, the goal of far too many objectivist posters, seems to be the need to save equipment buyers from themselves. The purpose of their posts is to cite how correct they are, because their measurements say they are.  (...) They seem to get the adrenalin rush of an activist naysayer and debunker, by deriding equipment manufacturers and owners, based on the measurements that seem to prove how bad their equipment is, or how bad their buying decisions are.

Interesting take on the matter! This is exactly my experience as well -- It is as if reviews of audiophile products are purposely used as a foundation for "audiophile bashing" discussions.

In many cases I refer to measurements -- especially when it comes to speakers, for example, where one can partly correlate the actual sonic result with certain real-time measurements.

gregm
3,396 posts
 

@snilf 

How, briefly stated, do you mean to persuade me that your "subjective impression" is such that the judgments you make because of it (your "subjective preferences") are judgments I should be persuaded are reasonable, well-informed, and worth taking seriously?

Very good question, one that applies just as well to (classical) music reviews, etc, so let me reverse it:

I would be persuaded your judgments are worth taking seriously if I knew you to be consistent, and I knew you to be comparing to a known and shared yardstick (say, live music), and I knew some of your listening traits (are you thorough - are you spontaneous, do you prefer baroque, classic, romantic... combination thereof, do you like to simulate reality in your room or are you after reproducing what's on the medium... etc).

Your judgment will then lead me to extrapolate my own preferences and approximate whether the device (or system, or performance, for that matter) in question is one I might like -- or not... regardless of whether you ultimately liked it; if you are consistent in your judgements and I "know" you, your informed opinion is always valuable whether or not we always agree or disagree.

 

A brief point on measurements: surely no-one disputes that when it comes to speakers, FR measurements, FFT, etc are useful; these easily correlate with what we actually hear. Regards

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