Zd542 - I realize that I'm asking somewhat unanswerable questions, but the intent is to make people think about how sure they are about the difference they hear.
I have Nordost Sort Kones under my SACD player and after several attempts to prove to myself that they did or did not make a difference I left them in and chock up the "improvement" that I convinced myself I heard to being primarily placebo. Even after coming to that conclusion I never took them back for a refund, which I could have done, and have never removed them from my system. What I am convinced about is that if my wife took them out and I couldn't visually tell the difference I'd never know.
I'm also convinced myself that I heard a difference between a $7 pair of hardware store speaker wires and a $2,000 pair something fancy, but it certainly wasn't a $1,997 improvement.
I am an engineer so my gears are always turning and thinking about this stuff. |
I think a lot of my skepticism is directly related from understanding enough of the related science, or having friends that do, to understand how misleading a lot of the "science" manufactures give to support their products. Some of it is just wrong while others use accurate buy totally unrelated stuff.
My best observation at my local shop was to point out that they had a speaker wired backwards because one of my familiar recordings had the guitar in the right channel instead of the left. After a short disagreement, they took a look and found an interconnect swapped on one end. It had nothing to do with sound quality, but it didn't sound right at all to me. |
I'd love an opportunity to be convinced, but my location is not near either of you that offered. My issues relating to sciece are primarily when the science used to market audio equipment is obviously flawed or just unrelated. I don't expect every product to have a scientificly (I can't spell this word today I guess) sound proof, all that I ask is don't lie to me.
An example is the people that sell gold cables stating that they are the best when silver is proven to be superior. The use of gold is mostly like due to the fact that many people associate gold with being the best and assume that it'll cost a lot. If they simply said that the use of gold as a conductor provided a color to the sound that they preferred to silver or copper, then I wouldn't necessarily call BS on them.
My original question was intended to set a stage "where all other things are equal" as the foundation of the discussion and then find out what changes in the system people are 100% confident people could identify. This goes to the heart of the discussion about the value (i.e. cost vs. improvement vs. I swap things for fun) of upgrading and/or changing equipment.
In my case, I'm perfectly happy with the sound of my system, but purchased a tube integrated (I was given most of the money as a gift) because I just wanted to experience something different than what I have. I won't even be surprised if I prefer the sound of my solid state gear, but only time will tell.
I'm not against changing for the sake of changing, but that should be the reason and not I'm spending an additional $10,000 on an interconnect when I couldn't tell if you swapped it out or not if you didn't tell me.
When I had Nordost Sort Kones demonstrated under a CD player on a system with speakers in the middle of the Focal Utopia line and a Pathos amplifier, I was convinced that I could hear a difference, but was equally convinced that I would never be able to tell if they were in or out if I just walked in and wasn't doing an A/B comparison. And, I still ended up with a pair because curiosity got the better of me.
My first question to the salesman was if they made more of a difference on cheap CD player compared to the $10,000 ones and was suprised that they seemed to work equally. My next question was why a company selling a $10,000 CD player wouldn't either incorporate a similar design or just work out a deal with Nordost to include them with the purchase. |
Zd542 - The point of my admission of sort kones and speakers wires was intended to give some credibility that I don't "condem" people for purchasing upgrades and have myself purchased a few things that I can't even convince myself 100% that it's real vs. placebo.
I realize that I'll never convince you that my sole/primary purpose isn't to stir the pot (admittedly I don't shy away from asking something that I know will stir the pot), but in every thread like this I gain information that I value. |
Tls49 - I would love to have my speakers out from the wall, but with two under three in a small house the options are very limited just like my time to critically listen. I have heard my speakers connected to a much better system in a much better room and am generally very happy with my setup.
I picked up the tube amp after work today and am currently listening to it. So far it sounds great and in some ways very different from my solid state receiver, but doesn't have the low end punch that I'm used to. Tonight is easy low volume listening with my wife so it's not really a good test. On Sunday I'll get a chance to air it out a bit more and plan to try ultralinear mode vs. triode mode and also the 4 ohm taps. For now I'm sticking with triode mode and the 8 ohm taps. Only time will tell. I didn't purchase it with the expectation of it being objectively better than my current amplifier. The goal was simply to give tubes a try within a limited budget. |
And my room is ever so slightly different now. There is a bookself on the right side on the wall in front of the subwoofer. The small shelf on the left is now gone and the rug is a bigger size of the same. Space is limited. The extra bookshelf is one of two that was necessary when our office/guest room was turned into a second baby room. There are no more rooms...
My wife doesn't consider a listening room when she dreams about building a house, but we're more than a few years from a move. |
My engineering degree is a general engineering degree with an emphasis in civil engineering and I tailored my classes towards structural stuff. I am almost always thinking about something and it is audio stuff right now. It ranges to cars, religion, etc. I don't claim to know everything and am willing to get the opinion of others. As for the science related to audio I have a little bit of general knowledge and will run things that don't make sense to me by my EE that is also into audio. He does his best to explain things to me, but it usually takes a few tries. Neither of us has ever owned a tube amp so asked the question knowing I would get a wide range of answers so that I could evaluate where I want to be. |
Cars do run on water (actually hydrogen) in Iceland. The issue isn't technology, instead it is infrastructure as they have very special "fuel" stations making it a similar problem to going all electric. I don't know about hydrogen, but in some places the electricity to charge a car can cost more than the gasoline and if the electricity is coal generated it isn't really an improvement overall for the environment. At this point the cost keeps people from getting excited about going away from Dino cars. Eventually, one of these cars will get a Bose stereo and this post will be back on topic. |
Mihorn - Not close to CA either. Great Northwest is my area. |
Zd542 - So far I'm really impressed with the tube amplifier. Before tonight I would have said that I was blown away on all fronts, but so far tonight my musical selections have not been quite a compelling compared to what I'm used to.
Overall, I definitely understand a lot more about what the tube sound is compared to solid state and would easily be in agreement that tube amplifiers have an appeal and result in less listener fatigue.
On the majority of what I've listened to so far I really think that the tube amplifier is a significant improvement. I wasn't expecting to be impressed with my SACD of Saint-Saens Symphony No.3 that I normally listen to surround sound with a subwoofer. The recording is extremely powerful and I think at the volumes that I prefer it is just getting way too far into the tube sound. You can always have too much of a good thing and no one amplifier is going to be perfect for everything.
I'm currently listening to David Garrett Paganini Caprices, specifically No.24 and found it not quite right in ultralinear mode (where I've done the majority of my listening) and once I switched it into triode mode it sounds a lot better, less tube.
It's interesting how my bias I have on certain recording in that I want to hear it a certain way and the difference between the two amplifiers is almost like having a completely new CD.
Sometimes when I listen to my receiver at louder volumes I feel like I did exactly that. I get the feeling that it would be much more difficult to have the same feeling. Balalaika Favorites and Yo-Yo Ma Goat Rodeo Sessions are two CDs that are very detailed, fast, and busy and can quickly cross over into the too much category. I love both of them, but they can wear on you and it was almost easy listening in comparison with the tube amp.
Happy camper here. Tonight, I'll be hooking the receiver back to the speakers since my wife and kids will be home during the day the rest of the week. It'll be interesting to see what I think going back... |
As a follow up, I just hooked the receiver back up and the word that I never thought would come to mind describing my system is dull. You generally think of solid state as being more bright and tubes as mellow and warm, but in this case the overall sound of the tube amplifier is both brighter (e.g. clarity) and softer all at the same time. I've only sampled a few songs, but it is a very clear difference. Objective to keep this close to the topic. I would absolutely know if you changed out my amplifiers :-) |
