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Just a few observations to throw into this. I had a pair of Rowland Model 201s, and bought a very early pair of Nuforce Ref 8, the 70W version. The Nuforce was almost impossible to listen to, being hard from the upper midband up. I then opened them up to discover Nuforce obviously had no idea of how to implement an audio design. Not surprising. It is a rare firm that can do the fundamental design and the commercial design too. So I started modding the heck out of it. In some cases all that was required was an improvement in a cap or a resistor quality level (such as they had a poyester cap as the input CD blocking cap - how could they?!!!). Everything else really came down to the fact the design was ultra-wideband, presumably because the theory says this will give you perfect phase response. But in the real world ultra-wideband meant noise in the system, and users would experience different noise issues depending on their situation and particularly in terms of cabling. It took a lot of experimenting to figure out the best ways to reduce the RFI without screwing with the sound but the biggest bang for the buck was putting a choke on the speaker output. Essentially I had to figure out how to eliminate noise getting in through the power cord, the interconnect and the speaker wires. After a lot of hours of 'fun', and very few dollars of playing around, these babies sound utterly glorious with a natural sweetness and delicacy, tied with a vice-like grip to the swing and flow of the music. The 70W version has no problems driving my Verity speakers. The Rowlands have been sold. I am hoping to get a pair of Ref9.02s to do a quick comparison soon. I suspect Nuforce has been doing mainly what I have been doing - implementing the original, and obviously excellent, design properly. |
I was trying to say that Nuforce appeared to have no idea how to implement an audio design when they made the Ref8, but that since then (like me) they have been working on getting the implementation right. Using their customers as Beta-testers is not a good look by the way Nuforce. My use of the words 'no idea' were driven by my incredulity that they had used a Polyester cap in the signal path. Do that and you can destroy the sound of any stereo system with a single blow. |
I think the sound quality for the money is unmatched by conventional designs. But that no doubt depends on what you want your amps to do. I prefer the analogue switching amps and find conventional amps sound broken by comparison - unacceptable levels of grain, coloration and an unnatural sound stage. I am talking dollar for dollar here. But I think you will find Nuforce will gradually introduce new 'models' to get their retail price up amongst the big guys over the next few years - now that they have done the hard yards of gaining a brand position.
While I have criticised Nuforce, I believe that with their particular amp modules they have made a real breakthrough. It is not a surprise that a newcomer to the audiophile world is finding the commercial design part of the task difficult to come to grips with. As I said earlier it is rare in the electronic world to find an organisation that can lead in fundamental design and be competent in commercial design of a new product. Intel can't manage it, or more accurately, don't even try.
Most of our admired audiophile brands are only capable of commercial design and perhaps we should be criticising them for failing to deliver any fundamental design breakthroughs - endlessly refining circuit ideas generated decades ago is limiting the whole art.
It is frustrating as a customer for sure. So wait a couple of years if that bothers you. But the bang for the buck is unmatched right now, and the rate at which Nuforce is improving its commercial designs is pretty impressive. Sure they have a bit to learn - and it is laudable that they are doing that in forums such as Audiocircle, and obviously learning some things the hard way. |
Hey Pitdog. I agree the Tripath has been surpassed, and I found the Nuforce capable of beating the IcePower, so that kind of gels for me. Any particular reason you are not interested in digital amps? If a digital amp sounded better than your current amp would you still rule it out on some grounds? The only one that I can imagine is that with the rate of development then resale price could be problemmatic, but I suspect that is not it.. |
I am happy with Nuforce's policy. I am happy that the market is 'buyer beware' unless there have been misrepresentations. I am happy with the Nuforce amps I have and I am upgrading to some new Nuforce amps.
I also appreciate that it is tough being a new guy where you have to pay the bills by selling what you've got, rather than wait till the next round of R&D is spent.
I can understand all that.
Just remember the customer is always right about how he feels about a firm, product or service. He may not be right about the facts, and he may not be listening to you when you tell him the facts, but he is the one that is right, because his decision to buy from you is based on his views, not the vendor's. And he is always right about how he feels.
There is no doubt that Nuforce's teething problems have impacted how customers feel about buying a Nuforce amp. The justifications or rationalisations from Nuforce or its dealers don't change any of that much at all. The upfront nature of Jason at forums here can change things, and I hope already is.
Some of us just need to put it down to experience that a new product from a previously unheard of firm is not likely to have a fully-developed product at its first outing. There are no rules that say they must have a fully developed product either.
Some of us just need to listen to the voice of the customer and understand that the emotions behind the words are driven by real (and always right) feelings about the product or service experience or about the pride, or otherwise, of ownership. And the fact that you know the expressed facts are wrong doesn't change that.
For all the positives about the intrinsic product, the perceived failings are real because customers feel them. That's just the way it is, and if you don't accept it, you may not deserve to have customers. Of course those dopey customers are wrong about how it really happened - you only have to be in business to know that will always be the case. But the only reality that matters is how it occurs to your customers. Be thankful your customers still use your amps, upgrade them and are still interested enough to let you know what they are feeling on this and other forums. |
You guys don't appear to me to understand what is being said in terms of 'the customer being always right'. This is not saying the customer is right about the facts (if you read my post you will see I said just that). It is saying as a business, competition is for the customer, and the only source of wealth for a firm is due to the customer paying across money. The decision by the customer to part with money is based on that customers' view of reality at the time, and noone else's. Therefore that is the only version of reality that matters to the firm. The firm ought to work hard to affect the customers' view of reality, but the customers' actual view is the only relevant reality. Is this too existentialist for you? Yes, by the way, I have three successful businesses right now. |
Haven't heard the H2O as they are not distributed/supported in my country (the Nuforce are). But for whatever reason I hear more potential in the Nuforce design than the IcePower design (have owned and played with both. This view appears to me to be borne out by others, eg, Ric Schultz reports his modified Nuforce amps beat out his modified IcePower amps.
But there is no doubt H2O have had more time, and have spent much more refining the H2O than Nuforce has on their Ref 9.02s. I would strongly suspect that putting a large (and expensive) conventional power supply on and Ice module would probably make it sound better than a (inexpensive) SMPS supply on a Nu module. So I suspect the view the H2O is better than the Ref 9.02 may well be correct. I guess it depends on your point of view as to whether the comparison is apples/apples or apples/oranges. |
My thoughts are very close to yours Stehno. To add to them.
IMO the peak performance limit of a system is usually defined by the quality of the AC power available.
IMO noone knows what components can really sound like till they have heard them without the effects of vibration removed, and that is a near impossibility. Some components are far more susceptible to having their sound ruined by vibration than others. While the manufacturer ought to do as much as possible to address that in the design, equally end-users experiences may differ markedly according to how well they address vibration issues. |
LOL - there is no copyright on the moniker.
I was referring just to vibration control, and I tend to agree with you, manufacturers should not incorporate bladders, special spongey feet etc. That would be a nuisance. When I typed that I had in mind flimsy or poorly designed casings, such as in the early Nuforces, and the much better ones used now. Or appropriate standoffs to isolate circuit boards. There are some basic things not all manufacturers adequately address that you don't want to be fiddling with later (having to rebuild the box) or having to compensate for.
I have to say the power conditioner market appears to get some decent products, but there are very few vibration isolation products that are really effective.
If you have any thoughts on a conditioner that will work on 230V I would appreciate it. Especially something to feed a couple of digital components. |
