Mr. han_n
At the time you were looking into the M1, did you know of FM Acoustics?
They are also Swiss made and have some excellent stuff.
No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
It goes back to cable manufaturars, mostly provide no relevant data! to sales and the users. None will answer this!
Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup?
I think I've figured it out.
Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup?
I think I've figured it out.
Showing 50 responses by b4icu
For those who are worried of a speaker cables impedance (none resistance values, of capacitance and inductance, in addition to the resistance): Capacitance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor#Parallel-plate_model The Parallel-plate model, of two thin parallel conductive plates resembling the two speaker wires (red and black) with a dielectric material in between (the cable's isolators). The structure of such speaker cable is provided by how the two wires are embedded into the isolator. Some are round and twisted, some are flat and are one next to the other (not top over the other!). This is mostly defined by the length and width of the cable (equal area of a capacitor plates) the distance in between (the two wires) and the isolating material that gets in between. It is always about two of them: the red wire isolator and the black wire isolator. Some designs separate the two cables (my DIY approach), to be of two different cables. Then they are apart from each other and not run in parallel as with some other designs. In most cables, such a capacitance is of a few Pico farads (10-9) and it is a very small value in general, especially when refer to a voltage source as a SS, with very low output resistance and at audio frequencies (up to 100kHz).
Inductance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductance The Mutual inductance of two parallel straight wires is the more relevant to speaker cables, unless you have a long cable coiled on the floor. Again, if the two are separate (my DIY approach) the inductance is null. In some cables that would run the two wires in parallel as in flat cables, of the twisted pair approach, it is more of a concern. But even there, at most times the value of such Inductance is of micro Henry (10-6). Also a tiny value compared to the cross over coils and the speaker drivers. The value is too small to be of a concern with most SS amplification and the audio frequency range. The ideal cable would be one with no Inductance and no Capacitance (also no resistance). Presence of such impedance of a speaker cable (or any cable) might work as a filter, depends of topology and values. No one wants that over a cable. Some of the amplifiers (tube and tube alike) are more susceptible to cable impedance and those would color the sound. At those cases a negligible thing might become noticeable. A cable that would present a capacitance between two ends of a speaker cable (as seen by the amp.) is called Low Pass Filter (LPF) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter The higher the FR, the more of that energy is absolved by the capacitor. If a cable is presented with an inductance, it would be serial. That is also a LPF. (Ref. to the RLC model). Summary: Cables with impedance are less good for a 1:1 transfer function as a speaker cable. Separate cables as my DIY approach, would be the best to decrease any impedance to null. Cables that are molded in a parallel structure, flat or in twisted pairs, may have an impedance factor. Try to avoid them as much as possible. A cable's impedance (of significant values) would act as a LPF on an audio signal and will dim the highs vs. other FR. From now on, please keep the impedance issue out of my cables solution. They do not apply. |
Mr. stevecham Why do you come back with a say of DF when you own a Manley NEO 250 with 1.5% THD and a DF of 14.8! https://www.manley.com/hifi/n250/ None of this thread is relevant in your case. So what is your goal in your last post? I thought that we were well done on page 7. |
Mr. stevecham It is not me to invent DF or plant it into your amplifier you already own. If your DF is achieved by feedback, it is the amplifier designer and maker's choice and not mine. This thread is not about modifying a given amplifier's DF to make you happy. All here have an Amp. with a given DF, whatever it is. There is nothing wrong if a well designed amplifier has a high DF even if it is achieved by feedback. Feedback is not a bad word. Some excellent stuff out there is just made like that, to include the M1. Whatever you like it or not, getting a cable by others experiences (more or less, whatever they might say) or by a listening judgment is so wrong. A speaker cable shall be tailored by the amplifier it is connected to, with calculated values and characteristics. Not empirical guess or a blind listening cession. Sorry if that is against your convention. See no issue for you to try it and hear it by yourself. For those who already did, it is a win-win situation. |
Mr. pesky_wabbit I would like to think that the cables industry will catch up and fix the wrong, to get things done properly. Not a big deal. It is not that all the sudden we won't need cables any more. We just need a different type of cable to be made per spec. That spec. shall be calculated and not guessed. On that issue, without undermined your concern to be fair with the cables industry, what about us, the customers that were told wrong so long and been asked to pay an arm and a leg for that? Do you think it was fair? I also would check how we would trust such an industry that had no idea for so long, what they were doing and taking advantage of us. What about all the urbn myths that they spread efficiently. So efficiently that people brought it up on this thread as an argument! You don't mind about all that? |
Mr. flapjack What could be better than a dual purpose cable? If you would read my thread, you could already know that tube amplification have a very low DF, so you could practically borrow your line phone cable and use it for your speakers. If that would be also a long one, you could use it in between listening to your tubes and speaking on the phone, to hang your wet laundry. |
Mr. glupson DF is an amplifier design and making matter that may advertised whatever they felt its right. The high DF is all about controlling the speaker. In electronics, the common idea about it is: the more the better. (Just the opposite of THD or noise: which is the less the better). However, some likes better the sound of amplification with higher THD and very low DF: tubes. That’s Ok too. The new kind of D-class (digital amplifiers, using direct DAC as PWM) have DF of 5000! Even thou those need to be related more like a DF of 1000 (way of calculation). I'm not into say what amp is better for you (it might be another thread) but I do say, for the amp you already own, what would be the best speaker cable. |
Mr. stevecham Your post is way off the subject and your attitude is rude. But I'll clear a few facts about your Manley Neo 250 with your speakers. https://www.manley.com/hifi/n250/ At a DF of 14.8 / 17.2 (output resistance = 0.5 Ohms) and a 4 Ohms load @ 218W, 1/8 or 12.5% of that power is dropping on the amp's and 7/8 on the speaker. So you are wasting 27W of the 218W. This is way the cable in your case has no significance. I really would care, if I would you, in such case about the DF. At the time tube amplification first introduced, the amps had very moderate power: 10W-20W. At that time the DF was the same and it was not a problem. Some designs looked into tube as "what was missing is more power", made it to deliver a 250W but over looked all other aspects. Your speakers demand way more than 1W. They are very demanding on impedance and low efficiency. So why would you bring up the 218W power, if you think you need only 1W? It is true that as close as you get to 0W, all problems are gone! The spec. defines 1.5% THD (it's a lot!) and I can't hear it because I'm 10,000 miles away. But anything above 0.2% is audible. 1.5% is a bad figure for today amps. |
Mr. glupson Gentlemen don't argue about facts and feelings. So as a fact, 1.5% THD is not good. If someone likes it – Shall it be. Audio as a concept has two ways to go: The first would take the challenge to try reproducing the source as close as possible. The second would claim, that this goal can't be achieved, so let's go for a sound we like. I'm Ok with both ways to some extent. It is hard for me to like a sound that I know up front it is contaminated with "bad" stuff: High THD, high IMD, high background noise, limited bandwidth, limited dynamic range, bad DF etc'. Than when we go for tube it is also a life cycle that could be different by the day. I liked it so much last week but since, I can't get again the same sound… At the same time, it is impossible to claim that a 1.5% THD is loyal to the origin! The origin had no THD. This figure is mostly get bigger as some is coming from vinyl with 3.5-5% THD and goes to a speaker that might have some THD too. Yes, people like it. I don't. I've heard a say after a live concert that the piano sounds better on his system! Well, is it good for him, or not so good for him? |
I may visit any lounge and as many I wish. I never in my life sold a cable. My story and claim is the same. Nothing had changed. I do disparage an industry (speaker cables) that has no idea of what they are doing, why one cable is better than another, tell a bunch of urban myths and charge an arm and a leg for that. Do you respect that? It looks that you do! At least I can say that the dealers at the Emotiva Lounge were fair enough to come forward. Not like some other guys here that just fight me with anything they can grab, to throw at me. None of your accusations would stick. I am saying my truth, I always did. You don't! even the excel tables were advertised in the oposite way you claimed. So you take bits from here and bits from there and try to get them alingned with your agenda, no matter what. Even if that is a lie. |
This thread has three angles:
For the clutter of some persistent annoying members, you can realize to what part they belong and why they are so persistent. Bad for them! |
Your cables? Who calculated their gauge by your equipment and length? Who told you what is beneath that nylon net and thick plastic isolation? What are your cable electrical characteristics? You think that by a say you can win a technical debate, but you will need much more then that. As far, it is my calculation (and implementation accordingly) vs. your say, based on thin air and some urban myths, you can keep saying anything. |
Making choices with setting a sound system by hearing. Some components shall be selected with the ears. Like the speakers. Some components shall not! Like the speaker cables. The roll of speaker cables in a sound system is not to tweak the sound. As previously described, the cables are a pair of conductors that should pass 1:1 (transfer function) the audio content of the amplifier’s output to the speakers. Just as a driveshaft pass the motion from the engine to the wheels. Picking a thin cable, is like getting a thin (soft driveshaft) some of the engine power (horse power (=Watts) and torque (=DF) will be lost with a poor driveshaft. Some of the amplifier’s strength and power will be lost with a poor speaker cable. That’s not the way to get a sonic difference. This is only playing on the range between using 100% of that amplifier’s potential to some part of it (sometimes as small as 20%!). The right way, is to get the entire potential (100%). It makes no sense buying powerful amplifiers, spend money on that power and not using its potential. Speaker cables can and should be tailored to your system, to fit its demand and enable the full potential of the amplifier reach the speakers. This is practically the say behind some of the sharing brought here. The change is significant to dramatic. |
Mr. grannnyring Why do you say your word in plural and not in singular? The best would be if everyone would make that decision for himself. Even not by listening to a dealer! You try to describe the audio hobby and the system building as a chaotic process that only can be sought out by listening. At a time that the number of combinations is endless. Well, it is not. There are rules that apply. It is just that there are people who know them and others who don’t. For those who don’t know the rules, others need to help them out by advice. It is mostly working well and also profitable for the one who is giving the advice, not so well for the one who is getting the advice. The journey you try to describe, in this endless possibilities jungle, just using your ears, is impossible. Most will never get there. There must be a more systematic and logical way to do this. There is! Whatever you like it or not, some physics rules apply and you better follow. Acoustics, power, electric compliance and more. Even with the LEGO bricks not all fit. Your desecration is required. I’ve heard a lot this point of view, of getting to the right sound only by using hearing. This is mostly true for those who have no other way to do it, like using knowledge. Is your post actually is a declaration about yourself, only using plural to hide it? For speaker cables that are the subject of this thread, if someone forgot, till now, you were right. From now on, there is a method (new way) to be used, by those who really want the best, not only say they have the best. Read the sharing’s and assimilate. I only offer a new tool in your toolbox to be used and benefit from. This tool is good for speaker cables selection. Hearing is not and never have been a (measuring) tool. Using the wrong speaker cables, have a bad sounding. I don’t buy your say that a poor engineered cable will be the one to sound best. I’m in this hobby for 45 years and I know it is not. So those who gave it a try know. What you are trying to convince me (and others) can benefit only one: the speaker cables industry! Why you don’t simply give your bank a standing order to deposit those 30% of your annual income and get the same feeling? You may save the trouble with the bank and just flash it down the toilet. |
The audiophiles hearing only approach Most hobbies involved equipment, involves knowledge. Flying or yachting needs license and if you don't study you put your life in danger. But it is also common that photography involve classes to get the basics and more. Even gardening need skills. Some, for a reason would like us the audiophiles have no knowledge at all. We better only use our ears and keep our mouth shut. The less we know the better. That would serve an industry that might enjoy and benefit from this. Its representatives are all over this thread. Just in case you didn't noticed. This repeated say, that the best way to get a good sound system is only by listening techniques is an absurd. At any moment, there are thousands of speakers, amplifiers, sources, cables and more, to create an endless combination. In this game, (invented by who?) the only way to get along is by listening. If you use your brain, you are out of this exclusive club. When the industry representatives will jump on you, it is the end! Well, as this hobby has more options than the amazons jungle trees combined, let's do it their way: Let's cross it, blind folded, only using your ears! It will save you from the predators, the scavengers and the traps. If you use anything else, or remove your eye cover, you are out of the game. I met all kind of guys in this hobby. The worst were those who never got the basics and theory behind it. The ignorant, uneducated but very active! They were always the first to jump on any opportunity to show off their talent…The most annoying at the forums, the worst at gatherings and owning the worst sounding equipment. Please, if some may recognize any of that and feels like I'm talking about them: avoid this thread. It is not for you. |
Mr. gbryant So sorry to hear that. Next time you buy some speakers, keep the speakers and throw away the expanded polystyrene (EPS) packing materials, not the other way around. EPS is too light for your cables. However, I'm sure your thin cables are a perfect match to what you call speakers and tipped over…Could you please share how you got to this amazing combination? |
Mr. milpai No business and no marketing. I am to share an idea, on speaker cables. That is a legitimate use of this forum and thread. Audiogon are O.k. with that and are kind to host it for over 11 pages. If you have a problem with that, you are welcome to approach them and bring up your claims. So far, I provided my service and help to all and for free. For some, beyond their expectations! The only thing I asked in return was sharing the results with us. Also for free! Maybe for the industry you represent, it is shocking and devastating. However, the engineering part of this idea is rock solid and works well, for those who tried it. So far, the reports support my say. I know it's disasters for you, as they prove you wrong and me right. So if that would become a business, would it be a problem for you? (I recognize some panic over the last 2-3 pages). Would you like to place an offer for me not doing so? Regarding your future predictions and assumptions, we have a say that: "The prophesy was given to the fools". |
Mr. stevecham Falls accusation! In your case (like with all who have tube amplification with very low DF, or with none conventional speakers) the speaker cables are not the same. This been stated up front of this thread. In your particular case, I've told you that the speaker cables may be any, it won't make a difference, in several occasions. I'm sorry you have a problem to understand this. It is a bit arrogant and out of line to call me Nazi for that. I'm Jewish, and six million of us were killed by the Nazi in the holocaust. Eleven more were killed this week in Pittsburgh, for very similar reasons. Do you understand how low you went for a speaker cable? |
Mr. stevecham I would like to clear this subject:
I think that the name: "speaker cables" are a mistake. They should be called amplifier cables!
I do not want to get personal in this thread. Except a few guys who need their daily dose of contemning my thread, for quite a while, all other are welcome.
Speakers sensitivity or efficiency: The range goes from the highest (106dB/w/m SPL) to the lowest (85dB/w/m SPL). There might be exceptions, but this is the majority. The combination of 88dB/w/m SPL sensitivity with low impedance of 2.7 Ohms, makes the Thile a taught cocky to drive.
Understanding Damping Factor and its role in the chain of amplification, cables and speakers: If I would reflect the audio world into the car's world, the amplifier would be the engine. The speakers would be the wheels. For the power (watts) would be the engines HP. The DF is the engines torque. The speaker cables would be the driveshaft. We know that an engine with lots of HP but low torque will not deliver the sporty drive experience. A powerful engine must have both: the high HP and a high torque. The fact, that tube amplification has a problem with DF is an old issue, that been tackled by SS. It is even better with class D but in a different way, not as with class A/B amplifiers. Speaker cables as drive shaft, would present a serial device with some flexibility to be the extension of the amp's DF. A thin cable would be more flexible, and a thick one more rigid. Why would someone like to get a car with a strong engine with fantastic torque and than ruin it with a thin (flexible) driveshaft? To deliver the power from the engine to the wheels with a high torque engine is like delivering the power of an amplifier to the speakers from a high DF amplifier. It is about control! The high DF is more control. A coil loaded speaker requires such control, to overcome the reactive nature of a moving coil in a magnetic field (speaker structure). That's the analogy. I hope it helped some to better understand it. This relation is not an empiric figure to guess of find by trial. It is a figure that has values and can be calculated. The calculation is telling with accuracy, what is the required cable for the task. Regarding your system, did you try some other combinations like matching a very efficient and easy to drive, horn loaded speaker with your Manelly? Did you try a powerful SS amp with high DF and thick cables attached to your Thile? Even if you did, and you like your sound, that's O.k. My remarks were pure technical. |
Mr. clearthink Your post is amazing. Lots of negative attitude but no common sense. You didn't demonstrate a better or other way to do it. You also didn't show a formula that would invalidate my idea. You didn't try it by yourself or listened to someone's system that did. Some, who did try it, shared their impression. Those were good sharing. As so, I wonder what the base of your say is. |
Mr. milpai
If you will read my answer to Mr. stevecham, there are some exceptions, regarding speaker technology and tube amplification. I’ll take care of that. How do you take that requirement and turn it into a cable, is up to you. If so many cable makers from the industry used to do such cables, by your say, you might find one to buy. It must cost nickels as those are now left over’s. The last time I checked, those who may offer such a thick cable asked something north of $40k. But money should be no issue for a real audiophile that follows its ears. Common sense might be more difficult commodity to find! The other way is to get a DIY project. There are plenty of options on eBay for cables. The problem is getting the ends fit a binding post. Some creative solutions were shared here, by Mr. keppertup and Mr. conradnash as well as with the sonic results. There might be more ways to do it. For anything thicker than 0 AWG, like 2x AWG or 4x AWG, a more difficult solutions will be required. It might also get more expensive… |
Cooper hasn't changed much since the big bang 13.5B years ago. It changed even less since 1980's till now. No matter how good you get, beyond the standard purity of 99.90%. All the difference in conductivity is below 0.1% and no one would notice an audible difference in such a small difference in conductivity. I'm sorry if my say spoils your sales. I realize that when this thread will take off, you might be out of business. What is that say of cryogenically treated or controlled directionality are doing in my thread? Those are some of the biggest schemes of the cables industry. What about doing some burn in and the skin effect? They can help too, after deep mud walking in total ignorance. Why bringing back your long rotten urban myths after they were grounded to thin dust? Again, sorry if my say spoils your sales. |
Mr. mitch2 The cable size and cooper quality: The gauge figure I’m providing is the optimal. However, even if you get a cable with some impurities in the cooper, it may change the nominal resistance by what? -10% That’s still O.k. Some of those ridiculous pretentiousness exotic purities and endings are not so important after all. They are more of a marketing tool to segregate one maker from the crowd. At the end, it is the resistance value that matters, and it may have a tolerance. Do not buy the pompous says of those who have an interest to promote their merchandize. You pay much and get almost nothing for it. As you are going to give it a try (congratulations) please be kind to share the process and the results with us. When that will come, please do it in the format I asked for. Thanks. |
Mr. conradnash Regarding purity of cooper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_conductor Please pay attention: "Specially-pure Oxygen-Free Electronic (OFE) copper is about 1% more conductive". The difference between OFC and cooper is: "0.02 to 0.04%". "The main grade of copper used for electrical applications is electrolytic-tough pitch (ETP) copper (CW004A or ASTM designation C11040). This copper is at least 99.90%" This is the cooper wires industry standard! So a 0.02 to 0.04% in conductivity, over the "at least 99.90% purity", is so negligible that it is absolutely unimportant for a speaker cable or any audio cable! The say had spread like a plague, when there is no disease and no need for a vaccine! A good sales guy had thrown this "barren say" to the audiophiles, who swallowed it and now can't get rid of it. It is amazing what this industry can convince you pay for, without any justification. |
Mr. stevecham 1. Let's check what the threshold of our audible ability is. The Hi-Fi STD used to be -3dB which is half the amplitude. That’s a lot. On personal tests with a 1/9 DSP octave parametric EQ the threshold was at -0.5dB. A 0.1% in tolerance converted into decibels is -0.00869dB. No way you hear that. 2. Conductivity is 1/resistivity. Conductivity is measured in SI, Resistivity in Ohm. A resistor of 0.1 ohm has a conductivity of 10 SI. 3. When you get a 0 AWG cable, that has a 0.1% loss due to none purity dos not equals to a 14 AWG that has a resistance of 2.52 Ohms per 1000m, vs. a 0 AWG that has a resistance of 0.093 ohms per 1000m. This ratio is of x27 times or 2,700% (not 0.1%)! So far, those who gave it a try, say I'm right. What would be your explanation to that, with your theory…? (At a time you have no idea what is my formula!)
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Mr. mitch2 You kind of have a point. Some get hysteric about 0.999% purity in cooper wire vs. a 0.9999%! At a time some way bigger issues are hidden below the cover of our equipment. None is treated for directionality, cryogenic, skin effect or high purity cooper. They are all standard wires and PCBs. Most so called hi-end cables, pretentiously use superior materials and look are practically poor conductors for the task of most amplifiers (thin wires). Those are not a match and never been calculated for the task. My idea, of having the optimum conductor (calculated) from materials that are not so pretentious or superior (by purity or any other crap), do the job and get fantastic results. It is time to weak up and faces this reality. |
Mr. stevecham I see there is a big understanding gap you need to overcome. The resistance of #14 vs. #0 is remaining relative, no matter of length. It will apply to any length from 1 m to 1 km or 1 cm. Who cares? I do. You should too. If we return to DF and assume it is high (500) it would represent an output resistance of 8/500=0.016 Ohms. (this been repeated many times along this thread). A #14 wire of 3m long (actually it is 6m) is: 0.01512 Ohms. That’s as much as the Ro (DF). If so, the actual DF is reduced from 500 to 264. It is half! That’s why your amplifier investment and you should care. If you spent $5k on that amplifier, you have just lost 50% of it, due to that poor #14 cable. If you would use a #0 cable, you would get most of the DF, or the entire $5k you invested in that amp. What that sounds like? Look at the sharing. More will hopefully follow. Try it yourself instead wasting your time and energy in something you do not understand. It is kind of $60 away from you. Nothing in audio for $60 will get you such an improvment. Ask Mr. conradnash or Mr. keppertup.
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Mr. wolf_garcia I never asked about how you met Mr. Low. Thanks for the sharing, I meet yesterday a chair. Please be kind to answer my questions: 1. What is your amplifier? Tube (KT77s) What model and brand? 2. What is the cable length? 10 foot (3m) 3. What is your speaker? Klipsch Heresy III 4. What gauge is the cable he offered you? "Rocket" cable does not look normal on the outside" This is the most "technical data" I'd found on the Rocket 33s. The rest is even more BS than not normal looking! Very common on cable makers who are amazingly passionate to rip you off. I would assume that with your Klipsch (I Have the Forte II with the same efficiency of 99dB/w/m SPL), the tube amp is a good match. The cable, unless it has some capacitance or inductive properties, any would be fine. For the rest of your say about Mr. Low, I would rather meet Miss Pamela Anderson. She seems to me way more "amazingly passionate"! |
Mr. mitch2 It is nice, but…Not yet! 1. This is not a formula to provide the gauge out of length and DF. 2. You need to feed the wire gauge till you tune out a close DF to the amp's DF. How close is close enough? 3. This calculator will accept wire gauge only up to 0 AWG. Some longer cables or higher DF are out of range! What is the formula when a 0 AWG at some DF or length doesn't get the results? 4. The speaker's impedance, should not impact the amp's DF. So why going from 8 Ohms to 4 Ohms changes the calculated DF figure?
Even if this would be the solution (and it is not), how many cable makers use (or used) such a calculator, to figure out what is the required cable to your setup? NONE!
Let's look back and see what we had here:
1. People claimed that the speaker cable should be chosen by listening and not by calculation. If it comes through Google or the web, than it is O.k. If I say it…No! Do you know how much clutter is on the web? Not all on the web is a holy bible. Even the bible was written by man. 2. All the sudden, DF is a factor to choose a speaker cable! Till my thread no one connected between the two? 3. All the sudden a thick cable (4 to 000 AWG or more) seems to be O.k. Till my thread you were thinking it is good only for jump start cables! 4. None of you went into the understanding how and why this additional resistance of a cable is effecting your sound. Or giving it a solid ratio between a bad cable and a good cable. Till now the difference was told by a sales man who pushed you the cable he would benefit from most, not the one your system really needs. 5. Going back to my say, that most of you are having the wrong cable connected in your system! 6. How many cable manufacturers you know, that offer cables of 4 AWG and thicker? What kind of money do they charge for it? 7. For the naggers, you changed your skin in a second, as a salamander camouflage, even thou nothing really changed in my claim. Is that shows what kind of people you are?
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Mr. glupson "Open-minded, ready to accept different views when presented in a reasonable fashion, willing to improve, not stubborn, not arrogant "my way or no way", etc. In short, great bright people. Hardly lizards". I thing different. Most people on this thread (many silent), are in this hobby from love their audio hobby. You know that the upgrade bug is very active, from the obvious reason that all want a better sound. If not now, for sure later. This thread, and threads like this should serve that well. I would expect them to listen to new ideas, to try (for a reasonable expense of under $100) and to make up their mind, if they were skeptic. For those I called "naggers", they had a different agenda. They do not love the audio as we do. They love the income from it. This thread is a serious threat on their income and industry. It is hard to accept and admit that for so long they had no idea what they are doing, at a time they were telling the most convincing urban myths and charging for that an arm and a leg. They are to lose trust and face toward their clients. What can they say to justify an entire industry that was so ignorant for so long, telling lies and myths while their cables were far from what they should be. At this point of the thread, their reaction is well aligned with that behavior along the rest of this thread.
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Mr. glupson 1. "How does going from a thick (0 AWG) cable to the connecting piece (8? 14)?"
Solutions were provided by some who implemented their DIY solution, so did I with a crimping device and some soldering. I used 8 AWG. The ends of such a cable have some contribution to the total resistance, but it is negligible because they are very short. That ending has also a physical benefit of strain relief over the rest of the thick cable. It was answered by me. 2. "That most of you are having the wrong cable connected in your system!", "It may be true".
As no one ever thought his cable needs to be calculated, the industry and the sales people made and sale cables of thin wire with thick urban myth crap, for reasons of par. 1 and costs, and as most that have an amplifier with better DF than 150 are in this category. As a fact, for all those, they use and hear only a fraction of their system potential! No matter what they've told about the 14 AWG cable of how hi end it is and what story it has to justify a hefty rip off. 3. My thread is no clutter. I stand behind my word and those who gave it a try approve it loud and clear. You are invited to give it a try too. You have more to gain than to lose.
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Mr. abtenet I sent a question to the amp. maker about the DF. I’m waiting for its answer. Connecting amplifiers in mono bridge mode is not such a good idea. Even thou your https://www.audioartistry.com/products_dvorak_specs.htm do not specify a spec for impedance as a speaker, only per unit. The bottom value is 3.2 ohm min. at 2.1 kHz. When a load is driven by a bridge configuration, you gain a 4x power but the load on the amp. is 2x harder. The 3.2 ohm becomes 1.6 ohm! If you use multiple amplification and mono, with XLR inputs, why 8’ long? Can’t you place the amp’s next to the speakers and get them way shorter? That might save you big time. From the klass (class) and the AUDI, I assume you are from Germany. Am I right?
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Mr. wolf_garcia I asked you some very specific questions, and you answered all around with lots of other things, I didn't ask. I couldn't stop myself from using some humor regarding your say about Mr. Low. It must be even more hilarious if Mr. Low is tall… The cable you mentioned, has no technical values (spec.!) but a bizarre say about its look…If so far, people were told by the industry to pick their cables by listening, now Mr. Low (or you) offer a cable for the way it looks. That's a new low for me. In your case, rather than get focused with my questions, I would go spread all around with your answer. Most of it was useless and off subject. Why? This is a technical speaker cable thread and not how sales people are serving a customer, to get their attention, trust and money.
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Mr. glupson For the Q: "How thin is that last connecting piece on the 0 AWG wire allowed to be" I'd answered that already before! It should be as thick as possible, or as thick as the banana plug can get. From your question, and the way of wording, I assume that you are into getting a fuse between your amp and speakers. If you think of an 8-10 gauge wire as a fuse, you are wrong! The 0 AWG is the fuse in that system…When that will happened, it will light your room like a Christmas tree. That’s not only calculated and listened to, but also a visual spectacle. I feel like you got into something big! Please be kind to share your "listened to and not calculated" experience with that event. For your educated statement "I doubt many would claim that thicker wire is detrimental to the sound". My answerer is: Not so many, but all who did try it reported undoubt that "listened to the calculated speaker cable" had a significant improvement! Those observations were both for the reporter and his spouse that confirmed his impression of grate sound improvement. It's on this the thread, you can find it and read it. |
Mr. stevcham The 1000m resistance is given as the 1m is of a very low value. From that figure, it can be calculated by dividing it by 1000 and multiplied by the actual length (number of meters) and also by 2. Any speaker cable of a given length (2.5m) has a wire that goes to the speaker (red) and one coming back (black) so it is 5m all together. No aircraft carrier. Also no one should place his amplifier 1000m from its speaker. That’s common sense. It seems to me that you could use some more of it! |
Mr. stevcham Sorry, if it wasn't humor! Current always goes one way, never flows in close loop. How could I miss that lesson in engineering? That’s the very basic. Way before Kirchhoff's circuit laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%27s_circuit_laws Single speaker cable sounds way better than two wires (red and black). Its SNR is phenomenal. It is hard to find those days' speakers and amplifiers with two binding posts per channel. Impedance is very important when two separate cables are used. I wonder if you took the time to read my say about it on this thread. |
Mr. glupson 1. "How thin is that last connecting piece on the 0 AWG wire allowed to be before it can be considered a fuse?" The 0 AWG is not for the current. It is for low resistance to match the relative low resistance of the amp. (DF). Some short and not so thin (I always repeated to use as thick as possible) wires at the end, won't change the cables resistance by much. Even a 12-14 AWG is no fuse. Most speaker cables on the market today are about that thick.
2. My two cents on fuse in Audio: I don't think that on the amp – speaker's path, a fuse is a good idea. I would rather prefer some sought of electronic protection in the amp. This whole thread is about minimizing the resistance of that loop, so a fuse will not do well to that. That fuse you are talking about, what is its purpose? To protect the amp from short circuit or to protect the speakers from a faulty amp.? Most damage to speakers is caused by using a low power amp. that might go over derived (volume) to get it play louder. When that happens the amp. might go into clipping (saturation). That’s a situation when it runs from positive to negative saturation, causing a very steep transient (dv/dt) that has a nature of high frequency and high energy. The speaker's cross over passes it to the tweeter, that in no way can handle it and its very thin wire coil, fries. A fuse in series with the speaker wire won't protect your tweeters from that. Most of my systems since I'm in this hobby, never had a fuse on the audio path. On the mains supply: yes. |
Mr. glupson How does it work in engineering: Most times when values are minor regarding the other major circuit values, they tend to be ignored. Otherwise, it may complicate a lot the calculations. When it must be meticulously engineered (NASA, military, medical life saving etc’) no short cuts are allowed. If you would like to dig into it, the path between the amplifier’s power supply back to ground, through the speaker cables and the speaker components, could be represented by a series of resistors (in the speaker there are also non resistive elements, as capacitors and coils). R=R1+R2+R3…+Rn. https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/res_3.html That would also apply to the cable part as a standalone. Each piece in that puzzler equals to some R: · The banana plug contact area with the binding post’s,
· The banana plug itself, · The short cable between that plug and the 0 AWG cable, · The two connections: between the banana and the short cable, · The short cable with the 0 AWG, to be applied in both ends (added twice). On top, the R should be doubled, as we have two cables per channel: the red and the black. For some you might need to do a measurement as it might be impossible to calculate. For some reason, you are now digging into the most minor details of a 0 AWG cable, at a time before this thread, all were good so with a 12-14 AWG cables! |
Mr. batenet The Inter-M R-500 phone in the US http://www.inter-m.net/_upload/product/2/R-150PLUS_dw_ae.pdf is not responding (not connected). I'll try the S. Korean when time will be proper. I'm still waiting to your answer about the 10 amp's configuration. I'm a bit baffled from this £275 amp, with 500W/Ch. In 8 ohms bridged, designed in S. Korea and made in China. The 10 sets of DIY 0 AWG may cost you close to the price of the amplifiers!
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