No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need

For all those who are in the process of getting a NEW cable that was calculated and recommended.

First, good luck and thanks for the trust. I really hope that most of you, if not all, will end up happy and satisfied.

When the time will come, to share your impression here, please do it in some ordinary way:

>  Specify your Amp and speakers.

>  Specify the previous cable that was replaced: just gauge and length.

    Please avoid brand and model. Thanks. 

    You may add how much that cable cost…

>  Specify your new cable: gauge and length. If other than was

    recommended, please notice what was recommended too.

Then use your own words to describe your impression.

This is important for all of us, to get the equipment and cables data, not only a say of how good (or not) is the new cable.

Thank you all in advance.

Michael (b4icu).

Mr. khiak

As I already established a communication line with Goldmund and Mr. Rodolphe, I posted him some questions regarding the Telos 600 special speaker connectors.

I'll share that with you as soon as he will reply.

We never leave a wounded on the battlefield ! :-)

Thanks you. Thanks you again.

Could you please help me out with some supporting information? I posted just above this:

When the time will come, to share your impression here, please do it in some ordinary way:

> Specify your Amp and speakers: Pass Lab 250.5 with Magnepan III's.

> Specify the previous cable that was replaced: just gauge and length. (?)

Please avoid brand and model. Thanks.

You may add how much that cable cost… (?)

> Specify your new cable: gauge and length. If other than was: 0 AWG, 5 feet long

recommended, please notice what was recommended too. (if different from  0 AWG, 5 feet long)

Would you please be kind to do that for me? Thanks.

I’m really happy that it worked for you. I didn’t say it won’t work for none coil loaded speakers, I just claimed it is different. On the theory and the drowing board, it is.
Some pictures of your cables would be more than welcome. Thanks.

For the record:
> The same results would apply if you turn the cables direction! :-)
> The same results would apply if you say they were cryogenic treated! :-)
> If you make another set, at the time this set "goes through" a so called burn in, and then after some time you will connect the new cable, it will sound exactly the same. No "burn-in" excuse is required when the results are: 

jaw dropping. 

It sounds good from the first moment. Trust me on that.

Wish you lots of hours playing your music and discover tones of new sound bit’s you never know it’s there.

As I said, you were listening to only some of your system potential before. Now you are listening to ALL of it.

It is not only your ears that approve it, but some engineering calculations, I stand behind it. Something that never been done before with most systems. Welcome to the club. Thanks you again.

For all other, who are yet in the process getting there, it might be a nice clue of what is comming at you, when you are ready. God bless you.

Thank you aging for your sharing.
 
How to post a picture:
Please use this site: https://imgur.com/a/42eh3h1
Press the green "New post" on top.
Drag your picture to the opened window.
Copy the URL on the right side of your picture and "copy" it to your post.

My two cents on your brave act:

Those were the best $45 (+$12) you ever invested in your audio system or ever spent.

You talk of over $2,000 spent on speaker cables with no much audible benefit. Then spend $45 and : "The results are stunning".

For the record, your cables been improved by X20. I assume that your description of the new sound tells the rest of the story…

For that reason, a silver cable of the same gauge, would add 5.4% over the x20 times you already have. It will be un noticed, but cost way more than $45.-

Thanks in believing me. Many didn't. Some of the none believers, you can find on a  parallel threads, getting banana to keep spreading their outrageous believes.

Just imagine, what you were missing till this thread.

People always under estimated the speaker cables. It was something between getting a wire from the cheapest spool in the shop, or investing big in cables that never delivered.

I wish this change will spread. I hope that audiophiles will realize the truth behind this subject. I regrat all the ignorance, urban legends and tones of money thrown out for absolutely nothing!

Those, who invested big in their system, deserve to enjoy all that goodness. Mostly, because they never did till now!

Many keep upgrading, at a time they have the right sound system but the wrong speaker cable. They keep spending at a time they are only $45 from accomplishment.

I hope that your description will help others to do a step toward the right speaker cable and join the experience. There is little to lose and a lot to gain.

I'm sorry for all those who tried fighting this idea, for no particular reason, rather than give it a descent try.

By the time we gather more impressions, it will be a weak up call for them, to do some changes with their attitude.

Be careful with the volume, ribbon tend to clip at high volume. It can also clip your amp.

If you like it loud and live like, try a Klipsch Horn. I own a pair of Forte –II. Nothing I ever heard, can reproduce a drum cession live like. The Forte –II does.

Thanks agin.

Good luck to all of you, building your new cables.

Hope you'll enjoy the process as well as the results.

Thanks for the sharing.

Did you notice that the bottom of your ref. was written or approved by AudioQuest that is a cable maker? Do I need to explain you why Bi-wires are better for AudioQuest than a single wire? (I'll give you a clue: they make double the money on bi-wire).
Would I base an argument on a biased quote with interest, rather a scientific approach?
I rather stick to my explanation (technical, supported by electronics knowledge and proven by simulation) than your lovely words that guide nowhere. Do you still believe that the earth is flat?

Your lovely description of bi wire could be also applied to a chair or a table. It would work the same.

Mr. geoffkait
You,  Mr. John Atkinson or others you may quote, never got the speaker cable thing right from the first time! so they added a second wire, of the same gauge to the single and the sound improved...
This is what this thread is all about. As if you read this thread thoroughly, you could get a slight impression of Mr. keppertup on his sharing of implementing this idea. A beautiful one.

I'm sure you would rather keep sticking to your false ideas and a limited sound quality (you most likely call high end) because Mr. John Atkinson or others said so. Enjoy both.

If you would get that, many of your falls accusations could be saved, with many of your postures posts and so you would earn less points...Sorry about that.

I've seen you on a parallel thread about the burn in, and I felt really bad for you.

Bi Wire

The base to the approach came from Bi-Amp (or Tri Amp.), in which the crossover was bypassed. An electronic cross is placed between the Pre and the powers. Each band that drives each of the units of that speaker is getting its specific audio band, its specific amplification and speaker cables. This is better than the ordinary method, because the speaker's crossover contributes some distortion that is avoided by the Bi/Tri amp.

Some manufacturers came up with an idea (not really works in real!) that if it's not Bi amp, it can be Bi-wired. The claim was, that the low Fr. Currents related to the woofer, won't affect the currents of the high Fr of the midrange and the tweeter. The Bi-wire became over night popular and most speaker makers provided two sets of binding posts and some flat jumpers.

This approach was good, if such a speaker owner would like to go Bi-amp without the need in some cases to replace the speaker or drill holes for more binding posts. The internal cross should be removed and bypassed in most cases.

If a simulation is run on a computer SW called "Spice" (most common for analog HW simulation with design) and the two options: Bi wire and single wire) are run, with identical speaker wires (represented by resistors of small value), the result of a single wire is better than a bi-wire.

To understand the why, a Bi-wire approach separates the current loops. So the low Fr. Loop, that drives most of the current, by nature of the audio band behavior, has only 1/2 of the cross section available, vs. one single thicker wire. The high Fr. Loop has the same cross section available, even it does not need that much. So you get one cable that is not really been fully used and one that is under sized for the requirement.

Digging deeper, for the Amp. it is the same.

So is for the speaker.

A wire can pass all frequencies as long thier total cuerrent does not exced the wires capabity. We most likely far from that in Audio.

You just have a less good speaker cable with the bi-wire. I would like to believe that we are gathered here to improve that part in our system.

Mr. keppertup

Thanks for the photos. As it does the job, I can’t comment on functionality :-)

May I please comment on your workmanship? Ref. to your 2nd picture, that the two ends can be seen better:

On Spade side - you have a thread that was not captured by the crimp and is lose. Spades need maintenance as the binding post loose grip in time. This end could use a short shrinking sleeve to cover some of the cable and some of the exposed cooper sleeve. For the safety and for the good looking.

Your other end, with the short low gauge wire stacked in the 0 AWG: is a nice idea.

I’m not so sure if that would hold in the long term, if the 0 AWG weight is hanging on it.

Here is mine for ref. was posted on page 2 of this thread:

https://imgur.com/a/qwcIbTn

Mr. conradnash

Sorry, the one you see serves my friend in Vancouver BC. If you live nearby, I can get you acquainted.

I have no pictures of that as I never thought to be asked for.

The wire between the thick 0 AWG cable and the banana plug is of 8 AWG. I really believe that this banana plug is the best possible electrical and physical way to connect between it and a binding post.

The banana plug is soldered thoroughly to that 8 AWG wire. 100% of its inside perimeter and 100% of the 8 AWG wire for the entire common length (about 2cm long).

The other end was soldered to the spade (cable shoe) that is of way thicker and more firm than the one Mr. keppertup has. It is soldered on both sides of the shoe (over the center hole). The shoe is crimped on two presses with a 70 DIN size tool.

Than the ends were worn, with a black sleeve (larger diameter) on the thick cable, the shoe and the edge of the 8 AWG cable. A second sleeve (white) is covering that edge and all the 8 AWG wire and secures (permanently) the banana plug sleeve from open.

This structure ensures the best electrical and mechanical construction, and it is very strong. It took me a while to figure it out…For the record, I also have a perfect solution to use two and four 0 AWG wires in one cable, for those who really need that.

All the respected makers you have mentioned above have an interest. They make a living out of that, the more they sale the better. That’s called a biased testimony.

I don't.

See the pattern?

Mr. geoffkait

I'm sick of your nagging. At a time you repeat other's say I have my own thinking. I learned, tested, experience and then talk. Not like you…You bring mostly makers of the audio industry that have an agenda: profit: The more the better.

I'm here with no such intension. If you would read some of the posts, you would understand that I'm truly here to give. Not to take. My only request from the members was to share. I have no idea what they will write, but still I'll keep asking for that. I start to suspect that you are here representing a firm in this industry that may not be happy if this idea catches popularity. It's also a big shame they sold their stuff for long years without having a clue of what their customers need.

The US:

I and my country (Israel) own big to the US. I know some Americans I worked with guys from GD, Boeing, and Lockheed. I found Americans to be very nice and honest people. I'm sorry to say that you are different.

I'll refer, with your kind permission to your HT system only. The rest doesn't worth the effort.

I've told you what cable you need. I took the time and the effort doing so.

If you have other ideas, you are welcome. I won't take the responsibility for that. I do not understand why you would ask for my advice and then do else. Is that sounds right to you?

Well if you go your way, it is your choice. However, it would have nothing to do with my thread. This is not a bi wire thread and I do not wish to keep that subject as topic here.

It may not benefit any of us.

Some say about this thread.

Not like many other threads, this one has a theoretical (engineering) side and a practical side. We can long argue the theoretical, till the practical part knocks on the door.

So far, only one got there. More are in the process. I would advice to be a little bit more patient and read what that will bring with their generous sharing. I hope that then the party will really get excited.

Each one, who took thing in hands, may have a little bit different implementation to that cable. Also they have different setups. The principal will remain the same. So should be the results.

If I'll take Mr. keppertup as an example (a very good one), I can assure you he is satisfied with the results and will not look back to exchange the new cables with his old once. He is the first for you, but I have more…

Before this happens, I am worried a bit. So I was with the other once. What will be the reaction to that change? Even thou I hope for the best. So far, things look pretty much consistent. There is no convincing on my side. I won't benefit from those who reject the idea or think different. I do benefit from those, like Mr. keppertup, who report of getting from the very same equipment with a new wire (cable) a way better sound. So far this is my reword. For me it is a big one.

If on the way, I can help some with other things, it would only be a benefit. However, I wish this thread do not turn into some infertile debate over one (or more) of some urban myths. Attempts were so far successfully pushed back.

Nice system.

The Luxman L-507uXII has a DF of 260: http://www.luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=4

For your 10ft. length it is between 1 AWG and 2 AWG. You may adopt one of the 0 AWG DIY that was brought up along this thread (parts source and labor methodes).

I know in person Mr. Yair Tamam a major designer of the Magico speaker. https://magico.net/redefine/redefine.php

For some reason he is not mentioned on this site. (Mr.) Alon is an Israeli name and they have a dealer in Israel too. I know that they earned over night a great reputation with their speakers. On my 3rd seminar held here in Israel, Mr. Tamam lectured on his vision of building a speaker…it was in 2001.

 what speakers do the customer use with the TELOS 600 ?

 My answers to your questions here under:

 1) we chose this heavy duty Swiss Made silver Coaxial connector in order to perefectly match the speed of Goldmund amplifiers to speakers of various origins . Also for its fastest and most neutral design.

 2) The connectors are not available for sale without the cables which are custom made at Goldmund.

3) What is the maximum gauge of a speaker cable, that this connector can use? : hereafter the info I received from our technician:

--> Please find the specification of the Goldmund Speaker cable for your information:

     - Power Handling : 8.5 kW at 10 MHz.

    - Section : Inner conductor 5.63 mm2. Outer conductor : 2 x 7.4 mm2 crossed shielding.

    - Nominal Impedance : 50 +/- 2 Ohms.

    - Insulation  : > 6 kV.

    - Material : Inner conductor : Cu 99%. Outer conductor : tuned mix Cu 96% & Cu 94%.

    - Weight  : 30 kg / 100 m.

    - Dynamic Minimum Bending Radius : 200 mm.

 Hope it helps.

 Thanks.

 Best Regards.

 Rodolphe BOULANGER 

For your waiting for me to describe this formula, I would kindly advice you don't hold your breath…

Without insulting Mr. John Atkinson, if he would answer this question already, you wouldn't ask for it from me now.

However, if you think that he can help you out, why you are not asking him?

You better do, because this is the last time for me to answer you.

When you (or other) get in a debate to the stage you cannot answer a point, and you go to bring quotes of others, it's a sign that you went short and out of ideas. As so, you most likely bring to the table a quote you do not understand. So the bottom line of such a case is you pull your idol into a debate they never asked for, represented wrongly and badly.

I'm no king and I'm no liar. A man is only as good as his word. I stand behind my word. Do you.

Mr. dill

I'm happy you are back. For a little while, everyone was pro and positive, being busy with their own DIY… I kind of missed the pickles, those who are going against my idea in all possible way and also trying to get the knowhow for free.

Why do you think I should give my formula to you and others?

I have a feeling that some of our pickles are planted represents fom firms or dealers from the cable industry. Having me spreading the idea, without them having the formula, is a big concern. I can understand that.

So far, I helped all who asked for.

Never said NO!

I Did it for free.

So no one can blame me of anything. Some guys already trying to get themselves the proposed cable. One already did. I would kindly advice you to read what he had to say. With some more patients, more will get to the finish line and be kind to share. I would predict that their new sound will be also way better than they had before.

The thing is "Big" because the speaker's cable industry kept you all from accomplish the full potential of your sound system. Systems that cost in a range of $5,000.- to $250,000.- and from this reason you enjoyed only a part (sometimes as small as 20%!) of that investment rather than all of it. As they spent that kind of money, they think that they have a high-end sound. Well if you read the first sharing on this thread, you may understand what the sound was before and after he replaced his cables. It reminds me the sharing of my friend who got a set from me and I posted his impressions. You can connect the dots. A clear picture will unfold here pretty soon. A beautiful one.

For asking the formula, in some aggressive and ugly ways, I wonder if you believe this is the right approach to get it? The funny thing is that all the pickles so far, showed very poor understanding in this subject.  

Mr. geoffkait

What a story over nothing.

Your first par. refers to the burn-in (BI) process without calling it by that specific name.

Burn in to a cooper cables!

I'll ask you again (asked you already on the BI thread, you avoid from answering with your perfect manners):

What is a burn in?

How long does it takes?

When is it required and why?

Your second par. You do a statement, as you are the absolute authority to define what cable is hi-fi, hi-end or extra-hi-end, and what cable is not (trash cable). You are actually bringing here the lord's word on cables grading. You are the messenger. If you would understand the original old testimony it its original language (Hebrew) you would know that the miss translated word "Angle" to English is "Messenger" in Hebrew. From your extensive postings on my thread and other's threads, you are none of the two for sure.

Just kindly remind you, that cooper as an element has fixed (k) conductivity (ρ). It is 1.68x10-8. Or 1.59x10-8 for Silver and it is only 5.3% better than cooper (I know this will make your day…).

A wire (cable) has a resistance (R cable) that is: R = ρ  x  L/S

L is the lengths in meters and S is the cross section in mm^2

I assume that your judgmental approach is based on the cables isolator look, the color and a scale of reputation given by the firm that you are doing all this for.

Your Third par. You go into some lyrics about the sound. The sound of music…That is fascinating observation, that all the sudden you can tell what someone's system sound's, in someone's room you never heard with any cable, of what it sounds like now with a blue colored thick cable, in incredible detail. 

I'm impressed Mr. geoffkait from your lyrics, but I don't like the tune, the rendition. You've got my attention and I got suspicious. For the amount of time and effort you put into your crusade, you must have a motive and maybe a sponsor.

Mr. conradnash

Thanks.

Here is the excell of this subject as so far two had acomplished their cables and shared their impressions:

imgur.com/a/dPO2o1p (add the http...when use the URL)

If you would like to change the level of satisfaction, please tell me what your score is.

For the rest, who haven’t yet got to the finish line, please enter your sharing in the same format as Mr. conradnash did. Thanks.

Mr. geoffkait

What is between resistance and conductivity?

Yes, silver is by 5.4% better than cooper. But the cost...Mr. geoffkait, the cost. Is 94 times higher. You can add 6% to the cross section and save the cost of silver.

For the rest, as you are not responding to my questions, I'll take the liberty to do the same.

I'll do answer myself regarding Burn In (BI)

In the military and airborne industry, regarding reliability the attitude is serious. As so, they came out with MIL-STD-785B, MILITARY STANDARD: RELIABILITY PROGRAM FOR SYSTEMS AND EQUIPMENT DEVELOPMENT AND PRODUCTION and  MIL-HDBK-217F, MILITARY HANDBOOK: RELIABILITY PREDICTION OF ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT.

The theory (I'll save you from reading all of it), is that a LRU (line replaceable unit) has a life cycle and a life span. Most of its failures accrue during its childhood and at the end of its days. A BI process (mandatory!) is done on each unit (100% of all batches), in which the units are entered into a temperature chamber that has a bottom vibration plate for 10 cycles. Those cycles are calculated as the MIL STD requires, and their cycle's length and durations are set. By the end of this BI process, the LRU is over its childhood and starts its failure free life cycle.

At the same time the BI also surface craftsmanship and components with poor margins. At an event of a failure, an analysis is conducted and the data is accumulated. Pattern failures will surface engineering or reliability issues if any. During the process, the LRU is turned off at extreme cold (-54 Deg. C) and turned on at -40C. After some time at -40, it will climb to +55 or +70C for a longer period of time. During all that the LRU is "ON" and runs a BI test loop.

So how is that relevant to a speaker cable? As the LRU is not performing any better at the end of the BI process, nether is a cable. BI is not about performance. It is about reliability.

No one, even in the military and airborne industry ever do reliability predictions or reliability verification for single wire. Also the MIL STDs don't require it (it is required only for: SYSTEMS AND EQUIPMENT and ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT, as the MIL STD specifies).

The swindler part of the audio industry and sales borrowed this say to get things working for them. When a guy gets an expensive cable or is demonstrated with one, to be convinced to buy it, and the impression from hearing cession, doesn't cut the deal, The BI comes to their help. It will buy them time to send a full customer home with that item, waist its time (as really nothing changes in the physical level, it remains the same cooper wire with the same properties as before the BI), and the deal is sealed. Don't be full and don't fall into this scheme. Another way to call it, is a full's story over a bad product. An excellent deal for the sales man, but not a good deal for you. Never buy the BI story. Don't be full.

The cables prices do not reflect the elements prices of the crud market. You know and all know that they are price is irrelevant of the material cost they are made of. You have a tendency to twist everything in your favor, regardless of what the truth is. It may show who you are and what your priorities are. Still, none have to do with my thread. So far the prove of two dear members who posted their share is on my side. I have one more of a friend from Vancouver BC. (Was posted at an early stage of this thread). More will follow soon. What is it you have on your side? Pickles (sour) posts. The Burn was your issue. You brought it up. I condemned it from the beginning. It is mostly relevant to equipment and systems never over a wire. Your support over the other thread on the subject is clear. You also hold about 50% of the 756 posts of that thread, even thou it's not yours.

Whom are you representing? Most cable manufacturers have no idea what they are doing. They spread the message of unproved crap: Directionality, copper purity, cryo treatment, or burn in. Some even add some box with passive components on the cable.

I had this Sun. a job interview at RAFAEL. They asked for a phenomena of a system they showed me the schematics,  that got a problem of oscillating and under voltage. I asked for the distance from the power supply and how thick were the wires? I nailed it. It was way less than 160 ft. Your 160 ft cable shows that you have no idea what a speaker's cable roll in a sound system. However, you do sound as the average ignorant Joe that sales them.

Thanks Mr. geoffkait. I am so relived.

On the other hand, I wrote that you are from the cables industry and you never denied.

So, that’s an admit!

It's nothing wrong with being one of them, as long as you state it with your name, for all to know, but you don't! That’s wrong. It is obvious you are caring their message and care for them.

They have no idea about speaker cables. They provide cables to all, without having any knowledge of what is the cable each of us need. No calculations, no science, no engineering, nada. Only urban myths they created to cover their unfortunate ignorance. This is about "your" truth.

As you stated, in your own words, the rest are lies and you are a king of lies.

Look at those who already made the recommended cables. They spent money before on cables that didn't deliver. Some shared of many thousands spent and not being happy with the result! Now, at first attempts, with my help – it is on spot!

It would make more sense if the cable industry would be able to do so and not a b4icu guy from Israel, first time on this forum. Unfortunately, the cables industry been established a reality you try to protect and support, that is taking advantage of the audio clients. As you are part of that industry, it is clear and understood from where your endless effort and perseverance is coming from.

Mr. Dill

Obviously you do NOT read this thread nor understand what it is about.

Please add the https:// in front and than imgur.com/a/WeAn11u

All who made this DIY and shared got a 0 AWG. Some recommendations were for 4 AWG.

But for some, who insisted of longer cables because a fire place or the management, or one guy who approached me on the private messages that had an exceptional amplifier,

because of that needed more than 0 AWG.

If I would be a cable's dealer of a maker who have non 0 AWG on its line, I would state the same!

Mr. skyscraper (Mike)

Speaker cables are wires to connect between your speakers and amplifier. They should be of a specific resistance that mostly depends on the Amplifiers and speakers specifications and the required length. Unfortunately, no cable maker is kind enough to tell you what right cable is for you, using an engineering method. They mostly tell you of some properties, like directional wire, cryo treatment, burn in process and more. All this has nothing to do with the subject but an elegant excuse to charge a lot for it.

As for my method (calculated) cables, some are getting really thick. Cable brands charge for that kind of cables (0 AWG and thicker) an arm and a leg. This is why it is best to keep those cables as short as possible. Sometimes two mono blocks would cost you less than a set of long and thick speaker cable. For every time you double the length of a cable, you need to double its cross section too.

DIY is up to you. Find your materials, put them together by yourself and you are ready to go. Some who did it here ended up under $60 for a set. Do they look as nice as a readymade cable that you buy? No. Do they do the job? Yes. VFM: excellent and beyond!

By reading their sharing, they absolutely do. It was on spot from the first try. One guy already spent in the past as much as $2,000 on a single cable, and way more on multiple cables and none was as good as the one he made by my recommendation. His sharing is absolutely amazing.

Not all have the skills or are handy to get along with such a project. It is not easy to work with thick cables. When you need cables thicker than 0 AWG, as 2x 0 AWG or 4x 0AWG, no one I know about, can do that. I can. I developed a way of getting there…It involves ordering special made CNC parts of cooper bars and more.

Tell me what equipment you have and I can calculate for you the cable that would serve you best.

Mr. glupson

Thanks. For an educated summery and for bringing this thread back to a civilized conversation. This mod wrestling with the industry hidden representative is so wrong.

I try to avoid a "one cable solution for all" as it is not the right engineering approach. Even your 2-3-4 suggestion is not proper. A 4m long cable must be of the double the cross section of a 2m long, to keep the same resistance. On the gauge table it is like going from 1 AWG to 5 AWG! The 2m would be a 3 AWG etc'. For those who cannot do with a short cable, and they must use a long one, the cable will get thicker. It easily can get as thick as 4x 0 AWG at some lengths.

I said loud and clear that the cable resistance is up to the amplifier (some speakers might be different, but most apply to the say: No matter what speaker you are using!). Different amplifiers would imply different cables thickness, even if we stick to a short 2.5m length.

Tube amplifiers have such a low DF that a home phone cords would do. As the DF rise, so gets the cable thicker (lower the AWG). When DF is 150 the cable you need is different than when the DF is 500 or even higher.

Some D class amplification, have extremely high DFs to exceed 5000! The more practical way to relate that (by the Amp designer help) is to say the actual DF is 1000. Still a relatively very high figure.

I'm not sure that the DIY is a solution for everyone. My friend in Vancouver, even I've told him everything he needed, he asked me to make him the cable. He was willing to pay me for the expanses and labor. I charged him only for my expanses.

I will repeat that it is difficult to work with such thick cables. I've been in that movie. My embracing for all cable's ending is a banana plugs. Spades are not as good, and so is the bare wire (not practical for an 8 AWG or thicker). I'm aware that some binding posts cannot have banana plugs!

The way to go from a 0 AWG cable to a banana plug, is with a short wire that will fit the banana plug and then to connect it to the thick cable. This wire shall be as thick as possible and so as short. It shall still have some length to enable the cable's strain relief. A 0 AWG cable is stiff. It is recommended to use a crimping method and not soldering. The entire end shall be protected and isolated with some shrinking sleeve. The cable must be reliable and last long. It also must be safe to use and never risk your equipment.

I do not think that the cable or the banana plug needs to be expensive or get into the definition of hi-end. This say piss's me off, as the 12-14 AWG ordinary cables on the market, are practically limiting a good sound system by 50%-80%. They still sold for a lot and called hi-end. A bit awkward. What wouldn't the maker say to get it sold for more $. I'd found that some materials are better to work with over others and do the job as well or better. So I gave up the obsession on the say and criticism, over practicality and good compliance to the engineering requirements.

So far, I didn't say much over the DIY solutions that some members of this forum came up with. They were creative and their cables do the job. They also ended up with extremely low cost. They might have some reliability problems on the long run. How your presidents say: "We will see. Something will happen". I assume that the average sound systems involved were of $10,000 range. A $60 cable cost is respectably amazingly low. From the comments of the difference in sound, the VFM is outstanding. You know the audio market. No one can upgrade that much a $10,000.- system for a $60.- investment. The only way to get better than that (VFM) is to place better the speakers. But that is a shame on who didn't done that already (-: Another way is to drink a nice glass of wine (-:

Mr. glupson

I'll try to describe the current state of the speaker's cable industry. After all, if we want to know where we are heading, we need to know from where we are coming…

No speaker's cable maker, have a tiniest clue of what cable we need. They also do not know why one cable sounds better over the other. They have no idea what are the electrical (engineering) values that make one cable better over another. An absolute groping in the darkness. For that reason, they "invented" a lot of preposterous pleas to cover the misunderstanding and ignorance: directional cables, cryogenic treatment, cooper purity, skin effect, burn in and more. None would hold a scientific confirmation or any evidence. No other field using wires got such an attention. From NASA and space programs, to the highest level of airborne and military equipment, life saving medical equipment or cell phones. Only audio cables did.

Most speaker cables are made thin (12-14 AWG) because it is easy to use with spades and banana plugs that are common in the market. They won't go thinner, as it would be ridicules but they won't go thicker as it is difficult to do. So we ended up with an average 12-14 AWG, regardless of what we actually need.

At the same time, speaker cables (unfortunately also other cables) were priced absurdly high. As this is the holy grail of the audio industry. I must admit that marketing went well and the industry flourishes. A ridiculous situation with poor consequences.

Now comes the worst part, after understanding that the speaker cable makers were fooling us since dome of days. A speaker cable is actually crucial for a good sound. A poor cable can ruin it and it really does. At a time the cable makers were title their product as High End, they were practically destroying a good sound system that could sound terrific, with a "so wrong" cable that would prevent up to 50%-80% of its potential. If they call a cable that kills 50%-80% of the sound a high end cable, what should they call a cable that delivers the absolute 100%?

Unfortunately it is not their cable, so you have seen some of those say on previous posts. Such words, are shallow and do not tells you the truth. They only cover over a mediocre or bad product wrapped with pretentious words.

To show you the difference, between a ready purchased, reputed cable maker cable and a cable that is DIY (less complete in structure) but of the right electrical properties, here are two testimonies:

1. Mr. Wilson, who exchanged a Transparent Audio Laboratory 14 AWG 12 feet long cable, that costs About $250, with a 0 AWG 2.5m long cable:

    

   "My initial impressions: It’s like having new speakers. The sound is pure and clean. Minute details are suddenly apparent. The range is amazing. Highs, mid-tones and a new bass that I didn’t know my speakers were capable of. I wonder now what I need the new … subwoofer for!

   It feels that for all these years my speakers were being chocked and suddenly they can breathe and have their full voice.  

   To say I’m happy about my new speaker cables is an understatement. I’m thrilled. Thank you for building these superbly engineered cables to unleash the full potential of my home sound system".

    

2. Mr. keppertup who replaced a 16 AWG 1.5n long cable with a 0 AWG cable of the same length, that cost him $57.00 ($45 plus shipping):

    

   "The results are stunning.  The amount of undistorted energy filling the room, is jaw dropping.  I keep turning up the volume to levels that previously irritated my ears, and experience no irritation.  In the modified lyrics of B.B. King, “The shrill is gone.”  My wife is hearing new detail in cuts she has listened to many times before".

No other components or placement were involved, only one speaker cable over the other. This kind of testimony reflects my say of a maker so called "Hi End" speaker cable, replaced with an unlabeled cable that delivers 100% and not only 20% or 50%. I would grade those testimonies as 10/10.

This may not be that dramatic to all. If those testimonies were on the upper side of the scale, Mr. conradnash had a experience like 7/10. Not bad at all for that kind of investment.

I look at it, as I'm holding in my left hand, the speaker cables industry, with all that history and tell and my theory and cables made accordingly in my right hand. This is a clue of where we are heading, and from where we are coming.

Mr. geoffke

If you would read my post on the previous page over a job interview at RAFAEL (you can go to their site and see what they do! – From space to military at the top technology available. They developed the iron dome and the wind shield systems), you would find out that me telling them to use a shorter and thicker cable, over a problem they presented, was my ticket in. Unfortunately, your understanding on the subject is so dull that you can't tell left from right. I hope it is not too late for you to study.

Mr. grannyring

Sorry for your long post. I know it is hard to accept when someone claim such a thing. I had asked this question, of what shall be the right speaker cable for long and never been answered properly. So I took things in my own hand and figured it out. When that happened, I realized how much the industry leaks knowledge on the subject. I never said that the people in this industry are not smart or gifted. I only say that none put the effort to find out the truth over this subject. It is most likely, that if they would, they might come out with something. But so far, they didn’t.

I would expect that you prove me wrong by bringing up someone (from the industry) that has the knowhow. From that long list of smart people, you proclaim from the industry, you can’t point at one who has the solution. You don’t for a reason. So you don’t have even one to prove me wrong. On the other hand, those testimonies prove me right. The more will do it and share, the better. At the same time, the cable market is not doing any good to this disturbing question either: What is the right cable for me?

Even thou you put it a bit awkward I am not shamed but proud of it. I am sure that if you would do this discovery, you might have been proud too. I am even more proud I could help already some to get a way better sound with their DIY cable. You have no idea, what those testimonies mean to me. With a little help, people all over, in the US, Canada and the UK did it and they are happy. I’ll remind you that it is all for free.

RAFAEL: http://www.rafael.co.il/4312-en/Marketing.aspx

Mr. Dill

This is all you have? Comeon, Mr. Dill you can do better than that. Like tell us what cable firm is that you represent?

It seems that a lot of posts were clutter. Not a big deal. Lesson was learned, especially when those who wrote them have a clear interest on this thread. From now on I’ll try to avoid them. Let’s call it spam.

I’ll rather concentrate on answering people’s questions, of what cable I recommend to their setup, and add new sharing to my table and post it, with comments if any.

Regarding some big names in the industry that do their own spades and banana plugs, I doubt it. It is most likely they have an OEM source, to order and buy from. However, even if they do make spades and banana plugs, it is not a good idea to connect those directly to the thick cable (like a 4-0 AWG). From my point of view, they never wonted too, as they never thought this is the solution for the speaker cables problem. If they would, they most likely would try it already.

Mr. stevecham

If audio signals and video signals would be the same, most likely we would need only one name for them. They have a different nature, especially that speaker cables deliver a higher power / current than a signal cable, like an interconnect cable or a cable TV.

For the same reason, USB cables are different than video, and so is LAN. All for a reason. Video and interconnect cables need shield (EMI / RFI) while speaker cables don't. The idea to put them all on the same pile and assume that if it is a cable it can be any cable, is basically wrong. Every type of cable has its individual design and rules, its individual property and its individual task.

Mr. grannyring

Thanks for coming forward and saying you are a cable seller. Just for a curiosity, how do you match and offer a speaker cable to a customer? Could you please describe the process and the method to do that match? Thanks.

I tend to agree to your say regarding the so far made DIY cables to be properly built cables that have been well maintained (for under $60 they are very nice and good). They can do to improve that DIY in time. You say "higher quality". Do you mean higher quality built?

What is higher quality cable, if the new DIY tried here provided way better sound than the previous cable. The only parameter that a speaker cable has as a quality is its resistance, to match the amp's  spec. Nothing is of a higher quality than a perfect resistance match.

The cable I built and sent to Vancouver BC, my friend took it to a Hi-Fi store to compare it. The sales man used a Nordost cable worth $3,000 to compare with. My cable performed better than the Nordost. It was not a perfect match to that amp. (Anthem) that they hooked up with. Most likely that the Nordost was even a worst match. When my friend hooked it up to his amp (Emotiva) things really got nice. You can read his testimony…a few posts earlier.

Mr. Mitch2

Sorry you missed some of this tread, explaining that every amp-speaker has its optimum cable, by engineering calculation. The tweaks of a sound system shall be done other than on a copper wire between the amp and the speakers. No, no one cable for all. The cables are different by the equipment they serve and length required.

Not to say, that the claim is of having a speaker cable that would bring out 100% of a system, rather than have a wire you or others might suggest, that you think is good sounding, but would deliver only 20%-50% of that system's potential.

Please be kind to read the sharing on this thread, of people who made the change and were kind to share. None of the cable you are talking about would get this kind of improvement.

Mr. grannyring

Thanks.

I assume this method of "voice cables by ear" would apply when you sale a complete system, to include the amp and the speakers.

What if a customer comes in just for a speaker cable, and has a gear that you are not so familiar with its sound?

If I may summarize your method, it is mostly based on your intuition and some past experience that is based on your personal likes and dislikes. I have a little problem with that. You may know by now, that two people can listen to a system playing in an environment, and have different say about the very same sound. Wouldn’t you feel better if you would have a blue print or a formula in hand, that would specify by engineering methods what is the optimum cable that customer really needs?

What is the thickest cable you can offer a customer? How much that cable cost?

Mr. grannyring

Thanks

Do any cable maker provides with their product some guidance, instructions or suggestions, what cable may fit best a given system or be the right answer for a customer need?

Or they leave it all in your (and many other sales people) hands?

In your words, if someone would come and say that his sound is on the bright side, you would suggest a speaker cable that would solve that? Or if a customer would ask for a cable that would bring to live the highs, you have a solution for that, with a speaker cable?

So for a customer that would like to improve his bass. Have it stronger and tighter?

Could you please answer what is the thicker cable you have to offer and what it costs?

Mr. han_n

I think that all the combination of the elements (cooper/silver/gold) is only to have a certain resistance. If that resistance is equal with two cables built different and from different elements, they will sound the same on a given system.

Regarding the feedback of the M1, it is interesting. It might be the strongest sales point of this amp. and for you any setup from 0% to full scale feedback, doesn't make any different. why is this amp. better for you than any other amp.?

Mr. grannyring

I think very different on the matter. A sound of a system should not be played with speaker cables or any cables. Hi-end pushed away the old (70’s) tone controls, EQ and other options to fiddle with the sound, on demand for purity. No distortion, no phase shift and no unnatural effects to the source. So why let some cable, we know nothing about its properties, or how it affects sound take command?

Using ears to measure the sound quality. You may know that our ears are not a measurement instrument. Have you done lately a hearing test by lab? You know that a man’s hearing is dropping with age and may be damaged by some noise to exposed to in the past. This method of accepting someone’s word claiming he has the golden years, would need more proof than a calculation method.

As I said before (I don’t like repeating myself), when a speaker cable has a higher resistance than it should (not optimal vs. the amplification), it disables the system to deliver its full potential. The way I see it, that you play with that figure and practically do more damage than good. Who wants a sound system that he paid for $10,000.- to be used at only 20% or 50%? It’s like throwing $5,000 - $8,000 to the garbage can. I would like to believe that if you put this question to all clients, they would ask for the full 100%.

At a time you have the impression that you are getting someone’s system better, you just play along that range of how much of the optimal sound it will deliver. Even when you apply a cable that you and the customer likes, you may have no idea where are you on that optimal scale between almost nothing to 100%. It is a blind shot in the dark. I would rather take an approach I can deliver the full 100% every time (using some math rather than be depended on someone else likes and experience).

With my way, I can not only calculate, what the optimal cable is, but also calculate a given cable, how good or far it is from being optimal. That may give you an idea of some of your recent recommendations, how close and good, or how far and bad you did.

You never answered me of what is the thickest cable you got in your shop and how much that costs?

However, you did rest my case about no one really know what is the right cable especially those who make them. If I would try several dealers, with different experience and taste to sound, I would end up with as many different cables as dealers. To my perception its wrong!

Speaker cables and their sonic influence.

A speaker cable is a wire. It has no components (well, some do have a box on the cable, like MIT), and no power source. So it is a passive element. A speaker cable roll is to pass the amplifier's output to the speakers 1:1.

Any cable that doesn't do that is actually attenuating that amp's output in some way. If you connect two (or more cables) between the same amp and speakers, and they sound different, all but one, or all do some damage by not passing that signal 100% to the speakers. Only that could explain the difference.

Capacitance (C) and inductance (L) even if there is some, its value is very small. The capacitance is in pF (10-9) and the inductance in uH (10-6). Such small value, in a circuit that the amp's output resistance is close to null, has no audible (more than +/-0.1dB) effect on FR.

In a sound system we have plenty of elements that do influence the end result. It starts with the speakers of choice, the room we place them in, the placement of the speakers in that room, and then the electronics. Why do I need more variables, like cables to modify our sound? Where did you go wrong with that list, ending up looking for a remedy with the cables, and also willing to pay for that?

As we gave up the EQ stuff, when each slide had its clear frequency and gain set, we are getting back an EQ (sought of) with no idea what it really does on the frequency band or at the level of attenuation to our sound. We just follow blind folded our ears or a sales guy say, without having the tiniest clue of where we were and what do we ended up with. Throwing a dice has fewer options!

Mr. kosst_amojan

Please watch your language. I gave you no titles and kept this thread respectful. This will be your last slip.

A speaker cable is a wire. Wires should not have other than resistance value. What turns a resistive component into impedance are capacitance and inductive elements. A cable that brings lots of that is a bad cable. Most cables (that has the red and black wires together into a single cable, are having some of that as they are having some isolation and they tend to be a twisted pair). My idea as presented to your convenience DIY, are singles!

But even if you use a cable with such impedance properties, they are tiny. As the amplifier's output resistance is very low (exclude tube and tube alike) those impedance values are negligible. So they are with the capacitors and coils values found inside the speaker (crossover).

I wouldn't put my money on that cable impedance, unless you can prove some FR variation by calculations or measurements. It may have a FR deviation on interconnect cables. They are connected between two relatively higher input and output resistance of the components they connect.

An audio component input resistance is of 10k Ohms or more (A MM is 47k Ohms). A speaker's input impedance is 4-8 Ohms. So is the output resistance ratio. Interconnects have way higher impedance values than speaker cables, due to the shield and structure. So what may apply to an interconnect cable, is far from being correct for a speaker cable. Please be kindly reminded that this thread is for speaker cables.

Mr. grannyring

Thanks.

When do you think you will get that 0 AWG cable and share with us?

Please be kindly reminded to use my format to present that data. Thanks.