@ptss As I previously stated I’m not using balanced power, but I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t provide an “immediate” and “significant” improvement to the sound I already have. If I’m wrong, oh well. Suffice it to say that for now and at this point in my life I'm rather satisfied with the sound my system is capable of. I do appreciate your recommendation(s), however. @georgehifi Bit hard there ptss, if you read his first post, he couldn’t get a better sound from it than the Oppo UDP-205 for quite a while.
Actually George, as you read the thread further you could/should deduce your statement is not true. In fact, there was/is better sound right from the get-go. I simply wasn’t able to readily detect it on account of not realizing what specific characteristics to listen for, nor did I play the source music material to reveal the difference(s). I primarily listen to the Grateful Dead. Trust me, they sound grate on any system. Even their recordings that are less than "exactly perfect" recording quality wise are overshadowed by the music itself. Further, my sound prior to Yggy was/is very good to begin with. |
@georgehifi and @ptss
Perhaps I've misunderstood your posts. All good as far as I'm concerned and I remain appreciative of your input. |
@gbmcleod
Kindly posts your impressions of the Yggdrasil when and if you feel appropriate to do so. I look forward to reading it. |
I would suspect that if you had a lower jitter source to the Shiit DAC to start with, there would be an obvious difference between the OPPO and the Shiit DAC. Perhaps. Logically what you are stating does makes sense. I've read a quite a bit of information about transports here on Agon, and like much of everything else there is some disagreement, however, in this regard. In my particular case, besides the level of contentment I already have with the sound of my system, I am (for now) electing to side with the camp that would argue that any high-end DAC that purportedly has jitter control, reclocking and so forth will employ those functions regardless of how "clean" or "dirty" the incoming signal is to begin with. So, I'm "relying" on the Yggdrasil to essentially "do its job" and what I believe I paid for, which is to correct the jitter, irrespective of how low or high it is to begin with. |
A simple test to determine whether its doing the job is to try 2 different coax cables, a cheap one and a good one and see if there is any sonic difference. If there is, then the DAC will benefit from lower jitter S/PDIF signal.
You could also compare 2 sources, like a Sonos, Transport, computer etc..
Most DACs fail this test. Good point. This is a very fair and reasonable reply. Note that at the time I A/B'd my Yggy to Oppo UDP205, I also A/B'd it against my Emotiva ERC-3, which is connected via AES/EBU (and not coax like the Oppo). The improvement I found with the Yggy was the same vs both the Oppo and Emotiva. In fact the Oppo and Emotiva have the same "tinny" treble, one dimension and less authentic sound in comparison to the Yggy. Point is, the difference wasn't just because of one input type like S/PDIF. I hear improvement in the USB input as well, relative to the USB input of my M6si amp. So I am using multiple sources. I remain open minded to better cabling, but this isn't something I feel a need to investigate further at this time. I have (as do others) a degree of confidence that any cable supplied by blue jeans is going to be "more than good enough". Maybe not the best, but certainly good enough. Given the responses on this forum it wouldn't matter what cabling I purchased or how much it costs because someone will always point to something "better". Ditto for any other piece of equipment. |
But did you drive only the Shiit DAC from 2 different S/PDIF sources or use 2 different S/PDIF cables?
This will tell you whether it is jitter immune or not. Hi Steve. More than two sources actually, however, I get what your saying (and have no disagreement) about using the same source with different S/PDIF cables. So no, I did not use a different S/PDIF cable with the same source. My gear and connectivity of same is as follows. Musical Fidelity M6si > Belden 5T00UP speaker wire > Golden Ear Triton Reference (pair) Schiit Yggdrasil > Canare L-4E6S XLR > Musical Fidelity M6si Oppo UDP-205 > Belden 1694A (Canare RCAPs) coax > Schiit Yggdrasil Emotiva ERC-3 > Belden 1800F AES/EBU > Schiit Yggdrasil Samsung SMT-C5320 > Optical Mitsubishi Eska POF > Schiit Yggdrasil Gateway NV79 > Belkin e129760-c usb > Schiit Yggdrasil |
The source is actually more important than the DAC. @audioengr That is interesting and appreciated information Steve. I’ll have to "digest" that for a bit before making any moves, but I certainly will keep it in mind. Of course, I do realize and have heard/read that if we are speaking about the music itself (which really is the "source"), that certainly plays a major role; probably the most important one. But you are speaking (unless I’m misunderstanding) of my electronics and cabling that are feeding the DAC. Keep in mind though that I *initially* reported the upgrade to Yggy was not that significant. Once I found source (music) material that could easily reveal the upgrade and was advised of the specific characteristics (dimensionality, cymbal decay among them) to listen for it became rather apparent. Further, and as many owners of the Oppo and Emotiva report, they really do sound pretty good to begin with. Nevertheless, let me "stew" in your recommendations/suggestions for a while. I'm certainly not finished making any further upgrades, just paused for the time being. |
That dacs make a bigger difference than what transports do, when reading CD's and using spdif proper 75ohm BNC connected coax, as RCA are not 75ohm. @georgehifi Baring false advertisement, why would RCA not be 75 ohm when blue jeans cable states ( https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm) ? "Connectors are a critical part of any cable, because if the coax isn't well-joined to the connectors, or if the connectors don't make firm electrical contact with the jacks, it doesn't much matter how good the coax is. For mechanical stability and electrical performance, there's no better RCA plug available than the Canare RCAP. These Canare plugs are designed for the best possible impedance match with 75 ohm video coax. " |
I agree dacs make a bigger difference than what transports do, Basic dedicated cd transport with a good dac will bring much better results than hi end cd transport with basic dac . I too would have to think and hope so, especially when a DAC such as the Yggdrasil advertises "with our Adapticlock clock regeneration system. Adapticlock is the most sophisticated clock management system in the world. It assesses the quality of all inputs, measures their incoming center frequency and jitter, and automatically routes the input to the best clock regeneration system. " Point is, and again baring false advertising, Schiit is basically stating that they are "cleansing" any incoming sh#t. |
@limniscate
That's certainly a fair response on your part, especially if in your experience you've found that DACs really aren't doing all that they purport to do. As I mentioned to Steve (audioengr), I'm certainly not finished making any further upgrades, just paused for the time being.
I read your post elsewhere about the Sonore ultraRendu, microRendu, sMS-200 and sMS-200 Ultra. I appreciate the recommendation. What I like about my Oppo though is that - among other things - it is the "player" and the transport. I think (not sure, haven't checked enough) the items you mention are a streamer, in which case I'm merely introducing yet another component. But again, I remain open minded, I just need to get off the upgrade train for a while.
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You have to do your homework gdhal,.... True that. Very appreciative as always of your input, George. Honestly though, I feel I do enough do diligence (i.e. homework). For instance, among certain other things, I did start a post here on the forum seeking input as to the "best" digital input to use https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-s-the-best-or-is-there-a-best-dac-input-to-use Guess what? BNC did not top the list. (and no one warned to steer clear of RCA for whatever reason) Further, I asked Schiit, the manufacturer of DAC I was at the time contemplating purchasing (and subsequently did purchase). They responded "coax" (without reference to RCA or not RCA). Further, I read from Mike Moffat that AES/EBU is best (to Yggy). Moreover, as it was/is my intention to use my Oppo as the main transport source, BNC is not even an option. I’ve been doing a bit of Joni Mitchell quoting recently. So, in continuance, I think this is somewhat appropriate...... Fiction of the gizmo Fiction of the data Fiction of the this is this and that is that ahh! |
For 75ohm SPIDF connection BNC is the best. Splendid! I take solace in knowing now that my system should only sound "better" if I choose to change connectivity. My RCA connection sounds spectacular (IMO and to me), so I can only just imagine what BNC would do. :) EDIT: Usually, leaving room for improvement is a good thing. But at least I did my homework :) |
@jayctoy
Thank you. Something else I was able to glean which was very much a factor in my purchasing decision is that the Yggy is supposedly a "bargain" at its price point. |
PS: And remember not all balanced inputs or outputs are real, as in this. Sometimes they just throw a balanced opamp in on the end of the single ended output to create a false balanced output, this goes for inputs as well. @georgehifi FWIW I’m using the XLR out from the Yggy (true balanced design) into my Musical Fidelity XLR input (NOT truly balanced design, converted to SE internally) and it sounds great; and I mean grate. :) EDIT: I did "test and compare" the SE out from the Yggy into RCA of the MF. The sound "quality" is the same, but as you know the gain is lower with SE. I’m using short cable (3 foot) in any case. I prefer the XLR because of the increased gain, allowing me to lower the volume of the amp and thereby obtain lower distortion. At least that’s how my mind believes things to be :) Note that the lowering of volume is not within the "zone" that someone like Ralph (atmasphere) would consider detrimental to distortion. |
The Analog Devices AD5791 that’s in the Yaggy is single ended output only.
http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD5791.pdf
If they used two of them, one for each channel, then the balanced output is false and just tacked on, and the SE should sound better with shielded interconnects up to around 3mts
If they however they used used 4 of them then they can get real balanced from the AD5791’s all the way to the outputs. And will have less noise if using interconnects over 5mts.
Schiits are built to a price they may not have splurged the extra dough on it just to get real balanced, maybe the proof is to open it up and count how many AD5791’s there are. @georgehifi I shouldn't assume you have checked the Yggdrasil specifications, so as a courtesy I thought I might copy/paste a snippet from their website. This seems to address the balanced issue. -------------------------------- D/A Conversion IC: Analog Devices AD5791BRUZ x 4 (2 per channel, hardware balanced configuration) Analog Stages: Fully discrete JFET buffers for balanced output and discrete JFET summing stages for single-ended output, direct coupled throughout ---------------------------------- |
*** THIS JUST IN ***
SCHIIT HAS INTRODUCED AN UPGRADED ANALOG BOARD. THE MSRP HAS INCREASED $100 FOR A NEW YGGY UNIT.
1.) The cost to upgrade is $550. Due to the need for firmware and hardware updates, this upgrade must be done by Schiit, or by an authorized service center such as Electromod in the UK. Because of this, there is no self-install option, sorry.
2.) We've provided a convenient scheduling system that allows you to keep your Yggdrasil until we’re ready to upgrade it immediately. Just place your order, and follow the steps in the series of emails. You’ll be notified when your order is accepted, when to send in your DAC, when the work is performed, and when it’s shipped back to you, for complete transparency.
3.) Yggdrasil Analog 2 includes many refinements, including all-new Class A, DC-coupled discrete FET buffer stages and completely different internal board structure. The result is increased line driving capability, slightly lower noise and distortion, and…most importantly…significantly better sound!*
*Yeah, that’s subjective. Yeah, we’re biased. So sue us.
Benefits of Yggdrasil Analog 2:
a. Significantly reworked discrete buffers
b. Completely different internals
c. Increased line driving capability (600 ohm OK)
d. Slightly lower noise
e. Sounds better!
Is this really a worthwhile upgrade to do?
While we can’t comment on what you’ll hear, Mike Moffat says, “Hell yes!� Take that for what it’s worth.
Four years and you can’t find a different D/A converter to use?
Right. You find us a better 20+ bit multibit D/A. Hint: there aren’t any. Nor are there any we know of in development.
What about discrete ladders?
Again, find us a discrete ladder spec’d for INL and DNL over a wide operating temperature range, and we’ll consider it. We haven’t found any. Nor could we make one, without heroic stuff like ovens to set operational temperature and individual trimming of drivers. And maybe not even then.
So will this thing drive 600 ohm loads now?​
Yes
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Firmware changes should be free, and it already has discrete Class-A J-Fet buffers with an output impedance of 75ohms and enough voltage out to make just about any poweramp to give it’s max output wattage. Hmm?
Very appreciative as always of your candid reply George. I’m just the messenger here :) EDIT: I'm in communication with Schiit and other forum members on head-fi. Naturally if I find out more info of any substance I'll post...... |
I'm going to need to rename this thread "New Yggdrasil - First, second (and third) Impressions" Schiit has graciously offered me the "courtesy" (their word) of a free upgrade!! http://www.schiit.com/about/news/yggdrasil-refinedRationale is that my unit shipped October 2017. My out-of-pocket is one way freight to them. They need approximately 5 business days to perform the upgrade and return to me. They claim they are swamped with orders, so the time can vary. I'm inclined to return it within the next few days. Any advice, recommendations, etc. are welcome. Thanks. |
For those who received their yagdrassil after oct 2017, any improvement over the one that shipped before Oct 2017? Any comparison ? I read one or two reviews over at head-fi https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread.766347/page-432 but there are not many (that I know of or can find). I suspect that aren't to many folks that have/had the "A" version and now the "B" in order to compare. While I look forward to upgrading to the "B", I dread another "review" or comparison :) |
my unit has been mailed via fedex ground, expected arrival at Schiit 1/23
Truckin' like the doodah man once told me "Gotta play your hand"
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Firmware changes should be free, and it already has discrete Class-A J-Fet buffers with an output impedance of 75ohms and enough voltage out to make just about any poweramp to give it's max output wattage. Hmm? @georgehifi Hi George. Could you please provide your opinion as to the benefit (or detriment?) to be realized with an Yggdrasil that features "increased line driving capability (600 ohm OK)"? Can you speculate as to how this is an "improvement". Thanks. |
To me, what it had already was more than sufficient to be able to drive 600ohms!!! In our system this would never be that low, more like 47000ohms or higher, and at 75ohm and enough voltage from a discrete fet arrangement to clip just about any poweramp, which may even have been a Pass B1 buffer copy or similar. I'd be interested in what this new buffer is.
This is what was the original buffer as stated:
" DC-coupled, low-noise, Class A JFET buffers and summers with high current output capability to drive long cable runs and low-impedance line inputs, such as 600 ohm professional gear" @georgehifi I believe you know I already have the Yggdrasil connected via balanced (XLR) to my Musical Fidelity M6si XLR (non balanced) input. I know you mentioned SE out from the Yggy could be preferable for short runs, but I like the +6db or so gain with XLR out from the Yggy. With the new Yggy board and its purported "increased line driving capability", do you believe I would have an "issue" if I continue to go XLR out from Yggy to M6si? |
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The following is a 1/17/18 post (at head-fi) by Mike Moffat https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what-a-long-strange-trip-its-been-robert-hunter.784471/page-428#post...++++++++++++ "This upgrade stuff can be a real hassle. I started this over 30 years ago at Theta Digital, in an era when digital audio tech was moving quickly, relative to today. In 5 years I went from Gen I to Gen 5 (missing, as with Schiit, the Gen 4 (4 means death in most of Asia) moniker). Kinda like USB tech today. But in the case of major sonic upgrade in the Yggy as a DAC only, it took almost 4 years to turn the page. So what do you get for your $550? Two new analog boards with 4 really expensive DAC chips, check, all DSP software upgrades done, check, oh and all production LTIPPs fixed. WTF is an LTIPP? It is a (L)ess (T)han (I)deal (P)roduction (P)henomenon. Let’s go over these one at a time. DSP software for the megacombo burrito filter. Couple of increments there – the first was a glitch visible on the -90 db sine wave measured on the earliest Yggys that was endlessly trolled on one of the forums dealing with computers and audiophiles. The second software enhancement was to was to add some routines in the filter which helped overall linearity. Then the LTIPPs – the first was a 75 ohm (instead of 50 ohm) BNC connector which affected some Yggys before production caught it. At 12 Mhz, the maximum S/PDIF frequency (at 192KHz sampling, 3MHz at 48K) the affect is negligible, but a specification is a specification. Finally, there was a revision changing the grounding of the mother board which was more of an enhancement than a LTIPP. The result is better electrostatic sensitivity. Finally the analog boards. The so-called analog boards are the heart of the entire Yggy because they are the digital to analog converter boards. All other boards live in support of these boards. These boards, more than any others are a significant sonic enhancement of the entire product. This is not only my opinion, but a concensus of several beta users. The 600 ohm driving capability, initially absent, was added after the fact of the main mod because we could while we were revving the board. Whereas the appearance of the top of the boards in particular is quite similar, the inner layers of the boards are quite different. Most of the differences are not apparent from an inspection of the top layer. I will be coy, because it is something I view as proprietary. So for $550 you get two new analog boards, an a$$hole to appetite inspection, all new upgrades we have figured out over the last almost 4 years. The result is a better measuring, far better sounding unit. So why do we have a few users bitching, and sometimes very loudly. Some is on us. We are trying to simplify our lives – one model, one color. Keeps the price down. Except we from time to time run black units, which get mixed in with our normal clear aluminum anodize color. Then we make a change, run it a few months but since the black units were made before the announced change date, it falls through the cracks. It is just then that a user bellyaches with about 685 posts all about how much we suck and don’t keep our deals. Then we have two problems – the first is our black unit which fell through the time made vs. Time shipped crack which is on us and then the second is we have a customer who apparently thinks 685 posts is better than contacting us and telling us why he thinks we are wrong, as opposed to telling the whole world we are wrong. This makes us wonder why we even offer black, much less upgrades, because we are really not a custom shop. So why do upgrades? Two big reasons – one is the fact that the best designs are inherently upgradable. One big reason is the best designs divide the major components in compartments. In the Yggy design, that would be Power supply, analog, DSP, Input, control, USB, etc. Makes it easy to change one part of a circuit (or sometimes even chassis) to affect a major change. Allows the imagination to run wild. Please understand that the below is my pure imagination; nothing planned – only a what if: replacing the control section and chassis with a windowed one could make the unit remote controlled – replacing the input card could add a gadget or other inputs. Replacing the USB, could sound better or accomodate new USB standards. Replacing the analog or the DSP software can make the unit measure or sound better. On and on. Get it? The other reason arguing upgradability is value. An upgradable unit always has a residual value that the last year’s model does not. More used Yggys on the market reduce its value, making it far more obsolete in planning than upgrades. Jason agonizes when we offer upgrades – the engendered cries and squeals from those who either had unfortunate timing or those who suffer from C programming language logic - "If Schiit ever offers an upgrade, even after 4 years, then I got phucked" or better yet "Schiit’s upgrade program is planned obsolesence". I have no ability to envision what ideas I get tomorrow, next year, or next decade. I do know that I am doing my damnedest to offer the best over time at the highest value. I/we aren’t perfect – but I’ve been doing the best I can for the last over 40 years. I also respond best to the nicest queries/complaints. It is not that difficult to be cordial. Thanks, everyone." +++++++++++++ |
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So from this it seems they are changing the dac's from the AD5791 to something else, you seem to be buddies with them gdhal ask them what the 4 new dac chips are?
No. I believe (but could be wrong as the issue of the chips is rather secretive at the moment) they are using the same chips, just new ones. |
@chayro
On 10-17-2017 8:42am you posted "My suggestion is to stop thinking about it, leave the dac in the system for a month and then take it out. Sometimes, the benefit of a new component can be better judged when removed from the system after listening."
Boy are you correct.
I just removed the Yggy yesterday and sent it back to Schiit to be upgraded. I've reverted back to using my Oppo - and even changed the filter setting (courtesy of @shadorne recommendation) to "linear phase slow".
Regardless of the filter setting, I can hear a night-and-day difference!
While my system with the Oppo sounds good, it sounds like crap in comparison to sound I had on Tuesday with the Yggy.
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Status of analog board update..... my analog A Yggdrasil has been received into Schiit service..... I'm told approximately 5 business days (could be longer, although historically they are conservative in their estimates) for them to complete the upgrade and mail back..... |
I'm very interested in what you think about the upgrade Thanks. I'll post feedback basically once I receive it (i.e. immediately out of the box and operating on a cold startup) and then again after it burns in. While I don't really believe in burn in, I will do the same as I did with the analog A Yggy which is to leave it on for a week or so. Like I stated, this thread is now actually "New Yggdrasil - First, second (and third) Impressions" :) |
I've just been notified "
Your repair is complete and your product is on its way back to you" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
So my Yggdrasil is back and hooked up in my system.
Let me start with the obvious and easy to check items. The serial number has changed completely (and is now prefixed by a "B"). A single sheet of 8 1/2 x 11 paper with a sticky note indicates the repair order "verification" and "post repair checklist" (all 11 items marked passed). The tech wrote in the external damage of blemishes area "scratches top". This doesn’t make sense (to me) because not only are/were there no scratches anywhere on the unit when I sent it to Schiit, there are still no scratches on the unit after I received it back. Perhaps he checked with a magnifying glass. In any case, suffice it to say the unit appears exactly the same as when I sent it, and was packaged just like a new item (I sent it back with the original packaging).
As to the less obvious but more important aspect of the sound, I’ve listened for the past two hours from a cold start. Of course I need to listen more, but it does appear as though *something* has changed, but at this early stage I cannot put my finger/ear on precisely what. Nothing necessarily better or worse, but different. The bass seems a bit less "forward" or "emphasized" compared to what I previously remember. Also, the "spacing" between the instruments may have increased ever so slightly. I've also checked that all inputs and LEDs work, the temperature (when warmed) is the same, and the initial power on LED flash sequence is the same as before.
Still checking/listening..... |
I though it odd also my return check list paperwork had the same crap on it. " external damage of blemishes area "scratches top". Is this standard operating procedure? @bacobits1 Now that is interesting. Given our experiences are very much the same, perhaps the answer to your question is yes. I'm inclined not to pursue it though. |
Let’s have a good hi def pic posted of the inside on a free image hosting site. George, I’m reluctant to do that. Are you meaning to try and detect the difference between the analog A and B boards, assuming it can be detected by eye? |
@georgehifi
I've been in communication with Jason Stoddard regarding the analog B photo(s). His reply: "I will eventually get Analog B photos done we have a ton of things more pressing right now, though."
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Analog B has been powered on continuously for 72 hours now. I note the external temperature reads 94 degrees F, up by as many as 4 degrees from analog A. While my "senses" and "gut feel" tell me this is *not* a problem per se, nevertheless I thought it worthwhile to ask. I have emailed Schiit 24 hours ago and have not read back. Just emailed again.... |
Sit back and enjoy the music.
@kalali Trust me, I’m enjoying the music. :) Nevertheless, I like to be as thorough as possible with any comparison (in this case analog A to analog B) attempt. As to the temperature, I’ve posted my findings on the appropriate head-fi thread and it appears my findings are confirmed. EDIT: Something else Yggdrasil owners may find interesting. I note there has been a revision to the user manual. Schiit no longer indicates they "recommend" leaving the unit on 24/7, but instead indicates there is no harm in doing so. |
But using AT&T GLASS optical link (especially with indexing fluid) receiver and transmission as Wadia used to do as an very expensive extra, is better than proper 75ohm spidf coax with proper 75ohm BNC connections, as RCA "are not" 75ohm. @georgehifi Please excuse the blast-from-the-past in that I've decided to unearth a post of yours in this thread from December last year. Curious if you can provide a link (I checked) to a reputable place/site that sells the type of cable you are speaking/writing of and in addition, any third-party test data that attests to glass with indexing fluid being best. And "best" means what, less jitter, faster transfer rate, something else? Also, in your opinion how much should 6 feet of said optical cable cost and given that it is glass, do you have an opinion as to its fragility? As always, thanks in advance :) |
It appears some objective measurement data is available. Succinctly speaking, it appears as though the upgrade from analog A to B is meaningful and worthwhile. Admittedly, the interpretation of this information is a bit over-my-head. Therefore, I’ll invite the resident technical experts to kindly provide feedback. Thank you. http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-yggdrasil-v2-upgrade-technical-measure... For the cost of $550usd, it should be clearly seen, at least most of it. @georgehifi Right up your alley, George. The link includes a pic of the upgraded board. |
...Thanks for sharing the link and bringing it to our attention. Do you have a feel for the performance of your Yggy with the B analog board, now that you have had some more time with it?.... You’re welcome, David. In answer to your question, I do! My feedback has to a large extent been echoed in what I’ve read elsewhere by others who have experienced the A, and have since upgraded to B. The bass has certainly changed. This is likely the most noticeable and obvious of any change. The bass now (analog B) is not as emphasized as it was previously (analog A). I’m defining the "bass" here as everything at or below 250 Hz. Now (analog B), it is a bit more articulate, and blended with the rest of the music. Akin to an improved cross-over in a speaker, if you will. I’ve read numerous posts about a "blacker" background (analog B) whereas before (analog A) it was "grey" in comparison. While I cannot detect whether or not this is true, I definitely cannot state that it isn’t true. Schiit does indicate that the analog upgrade offers "lower noise", and if I had to agree or disagree, I’d agree. I’m noticing the following items, having (seemingly) nothing to do with the sound of the unit. The analog B Yggy seems to output with a tad bit more gain. I’m using XLR. Nothing scientific here, just that in general (but not always) I’m listening with the volume control about 10 minutes more counter-clockwise. I’m also finding that the unit needs a bit more time - 2 hours now compared to 1 previously - to feel warm, and that the maximum temperature of the casing has increased by as much as 4 degrees F (despite my earlier post indicating there was no temperature change). I’ve read the idle power consumption has increased from 25W to 27W, but cannot confirm or deny that. I’m uncertain what role if anything the temperature is having on the sound quality, but am certain of the increase (as reported by my Dawson DSM101N multi-meter temperature probe and the touch of my hand). In summary - and I’ll post more as I know/learn more - I can state that I do prefer the analog B, but overall the difference (to A) could be considered subtle. And, if we turn to the question of value, had I spent $550 I cannot say with certainty that I would feel it had been "worth it". But for a new purchaser of the Yggy, having to spend the extra $100 (compared to having bought the A) shouldn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things and could easily be accepted/seen as being "better" or "improved", even if only because "Schiit says so". Like it or not, we all put some faith, trust, etc. in the manufacturers of the products we wind up purchasing, using, embracing, etc. EDIT: Worth mentioning for those just joining the thread and wishing to skip over the first few pages.... the analog B hasn't changed the same admirable qualities of the analog A which are: authentic sounding, no fatiguing "digititis", honest treble without being "tinny" or "bright", multi-dimensional placement/location of the instruments, vocals, etc. |
@david_ten
You're welcome. And thank you for the soundstage review. The majority of the write up is a regurgitation of what has already been said/written regarding the analog A version, however, there is enough opinion (which I agree with) in the comparisons and conclusion category to glean that the reviewer believes the upgrade is clearly worthwhile.
@georgehifi
Thanks for your feedback after your dissection of the analog board photos. The answer to your question, as I understand it, is "yes and maybe". Any *new* Yggy shipping as of October 2017 contains the new analog B board. "B" stock Yggy's are rarely available. No surprise there. I have no idea whether a "B stock" item would be analog A or B, but I'd imagine it could be either. The serial number of analog A Yggy's begin with an "A", while analog "B" begins with a "B". So it would be no secret to the buyer of a "B stock" unit. |
Thank you @david_ten
It's a glowing review. I find his comment "I have listened to $50,000 DACs that I can’t say sound better" perhaps an exaggeration, but if this is his honest opinion then that's okay too :)
Not specific to the review, I do like his explanation of "Why multibit?". It's in layman's terms yes, but somewhat uniquely explained IMO.
I realize you may be eyeing the reviews for your own edification as well, as you mention your interested in the "B" version of the Yggy. To bad the review made no mention from an A/B comparison perspective. |
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Hi @elizabeth I wouldn't have suspected you listen to grungy rock music :) Seriously though, if you're in the market for a DAC and giving the Yggdrasil consideration, I would recommend it. Particularly if redbook PCM is your sole or primary source. Compared to other DACs I consider it good value (price/quality/performance), but of course there are plenty of other alternatives in the $2400 range. Schiit does allow a 15 day return policy. And while I'm not a big fan of their "support" model, I have had enough dialog with them and positive outcome to give them a thumbs up even in this regard. Here are some other sites you might find helpful https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread.766347/http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/yggdrasil-refined-new-schiit-yggdrasil-analog...If there is something more specific you would like me to answer, by all means, ask away. |
@jayctoy I know :) I've read your post(s) in David's Denafrips owners thread. I look forward to reading your (and other) impressions, take away, etc. I've had a look at the exhibitors, http://www.axpona.com/exhibitors.asp and this is obviously a rather worthwhile and comprehensive event. And the price for the three day pass ($50 if bought online) is also very reasonable. I can only extend the proverbial "have a nice time" :) |
Hi @parsons
I appreciate your candid feedback and comparison information. Thanks.
To your point about the Yggy definitely taking 300-400 hours to sound it’s best, of course, I’ve read this elsewhere and numerous folks share your sentiments in that regard.
Personally, I’ve never been much of a believer in equipment break in. When I first got my Yggy (analog A) and was in the trial 15-day period, I left it on 24/7 thinking - but not really expecting - some magical difference would present itself on day 7, 8 and so on with respect to day 1. In my opinion, there was *some* improvement, however, I would not be able to say/write that I could hear the improvement in a blind test. By contrast, I am able to tell the Yggy from my Oppo in a blind test. I then *intentionally* powered off the Yggy for 24 hours, turned it back on and again attempted the blind test. Same result. I was/am able to hear a difference (with the proviso that appropriate music is playing). But to my ears, the sound was no different after being off for 24 hours.
Further, I’ve performed external temperature readings with a probe. Granted, the external temperature is not the same thing as the internal temperature. But what I’m getting at here is that the external temperature was/is at it highest point after about one and a half hours (now an hour or so longer with analog B) of being powered on, which would lend some credence to the fact that the unit doesn’t need all that much break in.
I take solace in knowing that while I’m listening and the unit continues to warm, the sound only gets better. :)
EDIT:
If there is a difference after 300 hours or so, in my opinion it would be so subtle that elizabeth may not recognize it.... especially when listening to grunge bands :) |
parsons - ....the resulting PACE gives the impression of just the slightest, but very noticeable, perception of "slowing down" of a song that you know very well.... I heard (or believe I did) the subtlest of timing difference once in a Rolling Stones song when I first compared my Oppo to Yggy. That would be the timing between the Oppo vs Yggy, and it was during a vocal passage. At that time the Yggy wasn't broken-in by the standard of days/hours many state is required to sound optimum. My point is I understand what you're referring to regarding perception of timing (slow or fast) which is likely milliseconds and can only be perceived from tunes that your mind is accustomed to hearing many times throughout the years. It seems reasonable to me that these types of tunes that one is accustomed to hearing for years would be studio recordings. In my case I listen to new (I haven't heard it even once) live recordings, which makes it impossible to detect the type timing anomalies that could result from break-in or DAC to DAC comparison. |
@david_ten
Is the timing you are speaking of something entirely different than what can be caused by jitter? |
@david_ten
Hi David. As always, I remain grateful for your thoughtful feedback. Given your last response, it would seem to me that the answer to the question I posed 4-22-2018 1:31pm is "yes".
And, as we are essentially speaking of a songs rhythm, I certainly agree with you that one should be able to detect if something is amiss irrespective of it being a song that one has listened to for years, or for the first time.
Then, back to parsons point about burn-in, I remain confident in my assessment that there hasn’t been any change in the Yggy’s "rendition" of a musical passage, where the emphasis of the assessment would be on the rhythmic portion of the piece. This is to say, the Yggy’s rhythmic rendition is "exactly perfect". :)
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parsons - The new Yggy sounds awesome right out of the box, cold. +1 parsons - I'd love to hear if you can shoot back to that Stones tune and see if you still hear a pacing difference now that the Yggy has had some more time to run in? Would be a cool thing to know either way. So too would I. But I can't. I honestly don't remember the exact song, let alone the vocal passage within the song. Sorry. |
