New speakers dilemma for vinyls... Heeelp! :)))


My dear hifi lovers,

In a while I'm going to pull the trigger for a pair of new speakers, in 6000$ range.
My new system will be focused on a Pass Labs XA25 and a Rega Planar 6, I'll have to test both Ania and Exact cartridges as I don't know yet what to choose.
I was looking on the web for recommendations related to vinyls for speakers in such a cost range but found literally nothing. My system will be fully analog, 80% lps, 20% cds. So far I auditioned the Klipsch Forte IV and Sonus Nova 3, very different but both amazing for different reasons. I slightly preferred the Nova as for me the bass is the most important thing. The Forte had a decent one but don't go deep enough, hope to hear the Cornwall IV soon and find that amount of low frequencies missing with the Forte. Unfortunately the dealer couldn't provide a turntable for the listening. This month I'm still auditioning:

Revel Performa3 F208
Focal Kanta 2
Cornwall IV
Spendor A7
Dynaudio Evoke 50

In a first moment I was also strongly considering the Tekton DI's and Volti Razz, they're both still on the list but unfortunately I can't test them because I'm in EU and in addition I'll have to pay tax duties (but this won't be a problem if these speakers are really the best choice).
Anyway even if for next auditionings there will probably be a turntable, It's always hard to get what's better sounding. I have 1000 records and can't test all of them, plus I can't know which one has a solid registration or not.
Does any of you have experience with speakers in a such cost range, using a turntable? And btw did any of you try also the Ania or the Exact?
Please feel also free to recommend any other speakers i didn't mention, I'm extremely flexible and open to any suggestion (excluding Dac).

Thanks!!!
adversam

Showing 5 responses by oldaudiophile

First & foremost, there is no substitute for critical listening auditions under controlled conditions, especially when you're spending upwards of $6,000 (US).  Unfortunately, controlled conditions, other than bringing speakers to your home, will very likely be virtually impossible, given your rather unique pre-amp and large home sound room.  I'm assuming you know the Rega Ania is a MC cart and the Exact is a MM?  Quite different sound signatures.  A previous poster is absolutely correct with regard to your preamp having significant influence over what your TT & cart will sound like; not to mention the size and acoustics of your home sound room.

Secondly, speakers are, arguably, the most subjective sonic experience in audiophilia.  Relying upon the impressions of others in this regard is a lot like asking someone if they like Asparagus more than Fiddleheads.  Everyone who responds is very likely listening to components quite different from yours, in sound rooms different from yours, as well.

Thirdly, you say bass "is the most important thing" to you.  Keep in mind there are speakers that can reach very low frequencies but cannot reproduce them very accurately.  They will sound boommie and muddy in the lowest frequencies.  YOUR EARS will have to decide how accurate or faithful to a live performance you want bass response to be.  Have you considered the idea of a quality subwoofer?

Finally, I'm not familiar with your amp or preamp.  However, 25 watts into 8 ohms, even in Class A, doesn't seem like a lot of power for a sound room as large as yours.  Do you listen mostly at low volumes?

I've spent about 1.5 hours of serious seat-time with the Revel Performa3 F208, powered by a McIntosh MA5300, in a sound room smaller than yours.  Even though the MAC MA5300 is rated at 100 watts into 8 ohms, it's probably more like 130 watts.  MAC tends to be very conservative with their ratings.  Under those circumstances, despite their rated sensitivity, I felt the F208 needed more juice & power to sound their best.

I've also spent about an hour of serious seat-time with the two-way design Spendor A7, powered by a 60 watt NAD integrated whose model number I can't remember, in a sound room smaller than yours.  I think the NAD may have been a class D design but I'm not sure of that.  I liked the Spendor but, again, felt they would perform better with more power & current.

I've also spent around 1 hour of serious seat-time with the Dynaudio Evoke 30, powered by a MAC MC275 & MAC preamp, in a sound room about the same size as yours.  These 2.5 way 4 ohm design speakers sounded very nice, to me, and very accurate but had limited low bass reach.  The Evoke 50 are rated to go about 5 Hz lower and probably do that very accurately, as well.  Four ohm design speakers, generally speaking, are going to need more current to make them sound their best.  I've always found, over the years, Dynaudio speakers to be very accurate.  I think this is one of their hallmarks.  However, here again, some ears like this and some don't.

Under the circumstances you are juggling, I would recommend you read Herb Reichert's 2-1-18 review of your amp in Stereophile and pay particular attention to the speakers he used for that review.  You may find you don't need to spend anywhere near $6,000 (US) to accomplish your aim and, with your vinyl collection and budget, contemplate an ultrasonic record cleaning machine for your impressive LP collection, if you haven't already.

Buono Fortuna, amico mio! 
Adversam, you don't need to spend a lot of money for an ultrasonic record cleaning machine. The hottest thing on the market today is the Degritter. However, they refuse to prove their claim of why using an ultrasonic frequency of 120 kHz/ 300 watts cleans better than other frequencies. I need more than sales & marketing talk before spending the kind of money they want for their machine. I've communicated with many manufacturers of ultrasonic cleaning machines used in the medical field and in the manufacture of semiconductors. All the responses I received indicate that 40 kHz would be sufficient for PVC or vinyl records without harming them. The cavitation produced at 120 kHz does, indeed, produce smaller bubbles than 40 kHz (a standard frequency). However, it's not the bubbles that do the cleaning. It's the power of their implosion (i.e. cavitation). Forty Hz would be sufficient, more powerful and will not harm your records, as long as you don't clean them more than necessary (i.e. once, as long as you practice other proper care & maintenance habits). Check out CleanerVinyl.com. You can put together a good, effective system for as little as several hundred dollars (US). A system like this is, admittedly, less convenient than Degritter, AUDIO Desk Systeme and other such systems. You'll have to do a little more work but it will save you lots of money. If and when Degritter can prove that 120 kHz is more or, at least, as effective as 40, 60 or 80 kHz or oscillating frequencies like these, I'll buy one.
Adversam, I put together a CleanerVinyl system around 4 years ago when CleanerVinyl was still trying to get off the ground, so to speak. The last time I checked their website it seemed they were much more geared to offering packages, now, and less flexible about a la carte options for people wanting to put together a bare bones or inexpensive system. What I have is the basic motor that turns the records in the ultrasonic bath + a generic ultrasonic cleaner that's necessary for a system like this + 2 adapters that allow me to clean 3 records simultaneously + the lifter device that raises and lowers the records in & out of the bath. I use this system to clean records and a Knosti Disco Antistat to rinse the records. The Knosti is, basically, the German version of a Spin-Clean but, IMHO,  better because the Knosti uses brushes instead of pads. After rinsing the records, I lay them onto large record-sized high-quality microfiber cloths to absorb the rinse water. Then, I set them in the Knosti drying rack to air dry completely. The last step is using a product called "LAST" (no pun intended), a record preservative. Al my records are placed in high-quality antistatic inner and outer sleeves. This is, admittedly, more labor intensive than a fully automatic machine but considerably less expensive. As I think I may have stated earlier, if Degritter could convince me that a cleaning frequency of 120 kHz/300 watts is as good and as safe (for the records) or better than 40 kHz/300 watts I'd buy one for the shear convenience.

The Revel F208 are great speakers but, like all speakers, need to be paired with the right amplification source. Again, I am not familiar at all with your amplification source and certainly don't mean to disparage it. However, based upon specifications alone, it doesn't appear, to me, that it has enough power to drive the F208 to their fullest potential. When I auditioned the F208 with a McIntosh MA5300 they sounded very nice but I thought they needed more power and current than the MAC MA5300 can generate. The F206 sounded significantly better with that amp.

With regard to vacuum record cleaning machines like the Project you mentioned, I don't have any experience using vacuum cleaning machines. My research indicates that good vacuum RCM's are effective but ultrasonic cleaning provides the best results. You could put together a CleanerVinyl system for less than what you'd pay for that machine. Take a look at Michael Fremer's reviews of record cleaning machines on Analog Planet.
Interesting! Not familiar with Jeff Rowlands amps or Teac preamps. Regardless, I'm very surprised at your findings of the F208 under those circumstances. The specifications for the JR are very impressive and 325 watts into 8 ohms should have been more than enough to push the F208 to what they are designed to deliver. The F208 have a tweeter and low frequency compensation switches on the back of the cabinet. Perhaps those were not dialed in correctly. You are likely correct about the faulty matching of those components and/or the F208 not being broken-in. All the more reason to do critical listening or auditioning under controlled conditions (e.g. size & dimensions of sound room; acoustics of same; listening position; proper speaker placement; component matching; etc.). Generally speaking, high-end audio shops should not be auditioning speakers or anything else, for that matter, that hasn't been properly broken-in. Regardless, this is always a good question to ask. My present 2 channel speakers took approximately 75 to 90 hours to break-in. It wasn't until they passed around 30 hours before all thoughts of the possibility of bringing them back passed. A good question to keep in mind, especially when shopping for speakers, is the audio shop's return policy. Make sure you'll have enough time to judge new speakers at home and bring them back if you are not totally satisfied with them.
Speaker specifications & measurements are, relatively speaking, not very helpful. Sometimes, those specifications & measurements are obtained in an anechoic chamber. Every speaker's performance is going to be affected by the size, dimensions and acoustic properties of the room you play them in; not to mention a host of other factors, as well (e.g. placement; listening position; power & other sources; etc.).

As I normally do prior to any substantial cash outlay for a new component, I spend months (sometimes a year or more) doing lots of reading & research before actually scheduling critical listening sessions. If you're interested in my madness, check out "Sequel to 'Time to Upgrade Speakers'" in the Stereophile forums. If I recall correctly, I spent months in critical listening auditions (as controlled as I could get them) of somewhere around 18 different pairs of speakers, in something like 60 to 70 hours of serious seat-time before finally deciding to bring home a pair of Revel Performa3 F206. In the budget I had, those were the best I heard for my particular purposes (i.e. room; components; musical tastes; etc.). You should NOT let this influence you! More than any other component, speakers are a very subjective and personal choice. ALWAYS let YOUR EARS decide what sounds best TO YOU!