Thanks for the advice : I agree "the proof is in the music,not in tapping". Be assured I shall experiment as to which resonances need to be evacuated and those that can be damped, as well as, those better left alone.
The areas I intend to focus upon are: The manifold & supports,the addition of a micro thin perforated interface between the top bearing plate and the lead platter , a small micro-fine mesh screen insert that covers but not obstructs the offset air induction-hole built into the inside the bottom plate; the use of high temperature-solvent resistant thread dampener rather than super gluing some parts/screws , the isolation of motor resonances using soft gel compounds ; a removable insert that slides into the 7" tonearm that can be adjusted as to length & will not alter arm's mass while reducing resonance and lastly using metal tape to block potential RFI exposure where the RCA jacks had once exited out the Table.
When I determine if any of these ideas work I shall post the results. Any and all ideas appreciated. |
Thanks Crem. Keep fighting the good fight. I'll be thinking about it as well. My guess is that there are too many conflicting theories to rely on any one for your direction so intuition and experimentation are likely to pay off better; and the proof is in the music, not in the tapping. Remember that evacuation of resonances can be more important than damping, at least in certain places. Determining which are which and how to best implement will be key. Removing the motor is big, and I still want to build a separate plinth for the arm as well. Good luck. |
Threaders: I have been re-reading many of the 'Noll articles and an interviews with folks associated with air bearing tonearms and tables. Somewhere between page 1 of the re-read and today my "big picture" view of Ariadne's changed . The use of a stethoscope push me over the edge. The conclusion : These tables are noisey just like So-an-So argued. Why ? For its all in the micro-world; the noise of the motor, the sound of air pulsations ... you can't deny what a "stet" sends to your ears.
Certianly, the air bearings help but these tables just breathe way to much. Whats funny is the air-control system I built is pretty much dead quite @ 46 PSI. So, whats up ?
Perhaps,an answer is between the Web postings that claim the Athena's got it so right they just blew the Ari's away in the sound department ... Thats when a few things clicked. Could it be that those Ari's noises are associated with audio reflections related to the coupling to , or the interface of one sub-unit/part to another? The Ari's has hard surfaces, not lead or wood via The Athena . Its a fact ... All Ariadne's are covered in a hard surface that stuff sits on or is attached to or bolted together.
In conclusion, the Ari's are micro-noise machines in need of good isolation/damping. Noth'in new here. Piedpiper mused on that somewhat in the past. But, I now view the problem as significant enought (regardless of whats been already done)to warrant a re-build.
Before going any further, I want to return to the Air Control System. Its nearly dead silent so why is the table so noisey ? One guess (besides removing the motor)are the SOTA damping materals used in re-attaching the pliniums , tubes , regulators and air control units together , the table is actually void of that stuff. The other issue is the Ari has too many inherient clunks when one taps on the table. For example, the metal spacers that hold the air manifold in place are hollow an' noisey when tapped with a fingernail. The "Stet" send that clunk right to your ears. Why not replace them with 1+" wooden dowels w/drilled out centers enought for the bolts to pass thru , a thin coating of dampining goo painted top an bottom of the dowels ,as well as, the inserted bolts painted w/ goo as well. Or, just fill the open metal rings with dampining goo?
Now I'm facing a real challenge. Sometime soon I'll put into practice what which I feel will bring my 'Noll to new musical heights . Any new ideas appreciated. 'Nollers stay tuned. |
A better web site for the air filter/regulator unit, item 01118, is www.harborfreight.com |
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piedpiper: sorry it took me so long to get back to you, the pump is actually a rena air 400. It is made in France by Rena (aquarium pharmaceuticals) and I got it at Petsmart. It is the largest one this company makes. Unfortunately it does not have a spec sheet like an air compressor. I do know it puts up about 5 psig using both of the air nozzles and i have approx 300 ft of tubing run to the platter. Remember I also have the lighter platter and not the signature like you have so I do not know if 5 psig will be enough. but its cheap (60 bucks) and it works like a charm. Its designed to run continously so it should be pretty reliable. I have used it for over 1 year with no issues. It also allows me to use my junair compressor for the arm at the higher pressure. I do not know the flowrate but again it works fine with my platter. Sorry i could not be more specific with the specs. I know the pressure because i have a pressure gauge on the airline going to the platter |
Readers: Those of you rebuilding the air control system might want to consider purchasing item # 01118, Central Pneumatic, Air Filter/Regulator Unit on Sale with Harbor Tools.Com or a store nearby for $29.00. The unit looks like its a part from the boat "African Queen" but it works. Just remember to dope all the connections. What does it do? The unit regulates air pressure from 0-160 PSI and removes moisture and oil from the compressor lines w/ a reusable filter element.In combination with my entire air control system, it works very well. Its the "heart" of the air system. Cheers |
Oilmanmojo,
what are the specs on the Renn pump? |
In tackling the issue of air system, i went a little overboard and got a junair compressor. It is a pretty quiet compressor but is oil based vs oil. I have a oiltrap on the outlet of the compressor and use the pulsation tubes (walker audio product) and do not have problems with oil or water getting into the table. THe compressor will service both the platter and arm but i also went with a renn air pump for the platter. this is an aquarium pump that can run continuously but only puts up about 5 psig. thats enough for the platter so i use it hooked up directly to the platter and use the junair compressor for the arm. The CFM for the compressor is approx .5cfm at 120psig. THe compressor is pricey but is built well and should last a lifetime. this compressor is used in the medical and dental industry primarily though Pluto audio uses this line for thier ultraexpensive tables. I have owned the compressor for a couple of years and have been very pleased so far |
Jdubs : I agree we should keep this thread going. Charlie |
Crem1, I had heard ~40psi for the arm, but am unsure of the necessary cfm at that pressure level. Any idea what's needed?
Let's keep this thread alive. I think it would be great if we could get a "new" air system that's at least comparable to the stock Super Quiet Pump.
-Jim |
Jdubs: 40 PSI is about right for the 'Noll tonearms. As I understand the Maplenoll Super Quiet Pumps were made in Canada and are devoid of most label/plate markings (at least mine is). They are heavy, black and football++ sized. Someone sugested that they were refrige-type pumps but I don't know that factually. The SQP is not like a most brand pumps but was a "homemade" by Bob Dilger. |
my experience is the oiless pumps are alway noisier than a corresponding oil based compressor. Not sure why but the specs with most brands confirm this. Having said that, the price is right for this compressor. You could mount in a separate room and run the tubing pretty easy thus eliminating the noise issue in the listening room. I did that when i had a shop air compressor in my workroom at my previous location. |
Crem1
Is the cfm at 40psi high enough for the arm?
Also, is there anyone that can look at their Super Quiet pump and see what make and model it is?
The problem with the stock (any of them) pumps is that they are not oiless.
-Jim |
R: I drove to the closest Harbor Freight and "auditioned" the quite pump. The news is mixed. It appears the pump can power a 'Noll and while it is "quiet" no Super Quiet here. The pump seems quieter than the origional 'Noll 20 PSI but much noiser than the Super Q. It requires a sound damping enclosure and placement far,far away but on a tight budget with no where to go ... It is a inexpensive limited option for the DIY'er but no Super Q. I only used it @90PSI so perhaps its a tad quiter @40PSI. |
Readers: This weekend I received a flyer in the mail from www.harborfreightusa.com, detailing sales to 6/9 including a Central Pneumatic, Quiet Pump: Oiless Compressor,1/4 horsepower (rated) with Air Tank Capacity 3 Gallons (Model # 90168). According to a review of the manual the max. pressure is 120 PSI, Air flow Capacity.5 CFM@90PSI,.7 CFM@40PSI with a weight of 18 LBS. The sale price $67.00(regular price $84.99); the pump is made in China. The pump pictured in the flyer is complete with regulators ; gauges and pressure switch (all UL listed). Perhaps a replacement to Maplenoll quiet pump ?? Personally, I'm going to drive to the nearest outlet to give it a look over as a reserve unit. Just want other 'Nollers to know the information. |
AS may know ... As you may know ... (sorry) |
Readers: A tidbit or two. As may know I'm dedicated Noll'er. Unless you are one of the most fortunate of all owners, this table can drive the novice crazy with all its querks. For instance, I recently had a email exchange with a fellow who did not know the air plenums adjacant to the quite air pump need to be evacuated of water every 6 months or so. He didn't ; waste water in the two small pleniums backed-up into the pump, there goes $700 bucks. Another, never move the Noll with the platter on. That one cost me the center pin , a hard bird to find. All the best. |
Readers: FYI some excellent pic's of a Walker Proscenium Black Diamond's air control system w/plenums and tubing configuration shown on Item, 1213341044 for the DIY crowd. |
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i will keep you informed on the project. Be patient, i work slow. Once i have the design concept down, i will send you a copy. |
Oilman, That would be a killer !! |
charlie
I am thinking about building a prototype arm similar to the arm on my maplenoll to see if it would have some marketing potential. I will keep you informed as to my progress if you would be interested. It would be an airbearing/linear tracking arm that has full vta/vtf/azimuth adjustablity. |
Sorry, the Tonearm designer has withdrawn the design from sale. So that's the end of that. |
Readers: Todate, the the designer of the Friction Damping Tonearm has yet to make arraignments so that I may purchase and experiment with his tonearm. Perhaps other commitments are taking up his time. I will keep all informed. The tonearm can be viewed at www.tonearm.org. |
Readers: I am in the process of reviewing a new, inovative product " The Friction Damping Tonearm" a patient pending TT whose parts appear to cost next to nothing with a potential to replace tonearms as we know them. Nothing is certian , no opinions other than what I expressed. More to come much later. |
Oilman, You have developed perhaps one of the most remarkable and cost-effective turnarms that duplicates what has not been obtainable for we lessor audiophiles. Thank You for opening the door... |
charlie
thanks for the kind words. its guys like you who help the novices like me get the encouragement to try new things. |
Olimanmojo : Impressive and innovating ; you win the "brass ring" . Great work |
I have added two recent pics on my system pics showing the trial oil dampening system. The oil trough is the stock trough that I mounted directly under the air bearing spindle. I attached a pin to the arm clamp and it protrudes down into the oil trough. I am using a fixed level at this time in lieu of an adjustable level in the oil trough. The oil is a heavy weigh lubricating oil with a high viscosity. I have experimented with various levels and viscosities to optimize the dampening for most circumstances. The final touch will be an adjustable level to compliment the tapered pin thus creating the ability to adjust dampening on the fly.
The results are subtle. I did find the stock paddle was too much dampening and tended to kill out the highs (particularly the delicate highs like crystal bells etc.) The dampening tends to help with running a little lower vtf. Following the thread on the universe cartridge, i currently have the cartridge vtf set at 1.68 grams and it is sounding great. VTA is near level with the tail just slightly up on the cartridge. Thanks again for the inspiration from various contributors to this forum. |
Oilman: Sorry for the late response. Lots to mention but due to the medical detour no changes yet on the 'Noll front. As timing would have it, I also aquired a LP collection ( 1960's rock LPs) - So far I have 200, several hundred supposely on the way ; many UK and German pressings @ 1967, significant J. Hendricks ,those are all mint - US pressings. Lots of gatefolds and alternate covers. But No Beatles. Oil, call anytime for a chat on steaming or anything I can assist you with.
Today, I'm attending a "East Coast Audiophile Society " gathering. Many audio designers and friends are coming several fresh from the CES. Frank Schroder, the tonearm designer, is scheduled to be in the group as is Peter of Soundsmith and Pierre Spray of 'ol Maplenoll fame along with others.
Should the moment present itself , I'll smooze over your arm which appears to me to be a impressive step forward.
Chat Soon, Charlie |
Crem1; the table sounds great. i recently purchased the universe cartridge and think I am close to optimizing the vta and vtf. The cartridge had about 100 hours on it so its probably not fully broken in but the cartridge, arm, table combination is fantastic and far superior to anything i have ever heard on my system. I still need to upgrade my phono stage but the resolution of this combination is pretty impressive. I am currently running the vta with cartridge body close to level and the vtf near 1.7 grams. I am using the technique DougDeacon highlighted recently with the universe and the last couple of tweaks have opened up the resolution dramatically. The dampening system is finished and I think it is a resounding success. I will post a pic tommorrow on my system pics showing the dampening system. So much easier than the stock dampening system since I do not have to swing it over the record anymore. I am using a heavyweight oil with a tapered pin instead of the paddle. I think you will like the mods. I also mounted the armlift on the righthand side of the air bearing spindle. Currently I am just chilling out listening to music and waiting for the universe to fully break in. Not sure though the sound can get any better. I am working on a 2000 record deal so it looks like i will be cleaing a few records instead of tweaking with the table. Have you had a chance to build the carbon fiber arm? You will not regret it. By the way, thanks for the bullet plugs. Much better than the radioshack plugs I was using. I may need to call you up to discuss steam cleaning. I really have enjoyed that thread and ready to take the plunge with the steam |
Oilmanmojo: How is the arm & oil paddel combo now working ? |
This sounds similar to the tritium table arm. It is an air bearing arm that is very short to resemble the actual cutting head. Love to see your concept. I still want to build the separate motor plinth similar to your table but i do not have the tools necessary to craft the device. By the way, you were right about the thinner wire. I finally got a good connection and it is working better than the 0.008 wire. |
you've inspired me to rethink my arm as well. I'm thinking of reversing the direction of the arm and make it very short ala the rare Maplenoll Apollo but mounting it on a separate plinth with a VTA adjustment dial on the back end in the form of the third cone support. the only vulnerability of this design is that warped records change VTA because of the short arm but rigidity is greatly enhanced. I'll draw a picture and post a picture. |
I have finished the oil dampening system modifications for the new arm designed. In the spirit of using the existing equipment, i mounted the swing out dampening trough under the airbearing spindle. I then mounted a tapered pin on the armwand clamp and it protrudes into the trough. I have filled the trough with a highly viscous oil (heavier than motor oil) that my lubes plant produces. The degree of dampening is set by the depth of the fluid in the trough. I can adjust this by a displacer which goes into the trough. I will get some pics of the finished design.
As far as performance, the dampening system works well in that i can adjust the level of dampening very easily and while the record is playing. I found that too much dampening will mute the delicate highs but since it is easy to adjust, i can fine tune it easily. I usually have just the tip of the pin in the fluid unless i have a wavy record or have a record that is difficult to track due to intensity. The design is very similar to the oil dampening system on the walker table but alas it is not nearly as refined.
I now feel i have a table that can deliver everything that is in the grooves. I recently upgraded the cartridge to the universe and feel the system can handle this great cartridge. I am still fine tuning the vtf and vta but I have been tremedously please with the results of the table, arm and now top flight cartridge. I still need to upgrade my phono stage (maybe santa will be good to me:~) I have found myself listening to records finding details that just were not there a few months ago. Some of the delicate bells on Ricky Lee Jones debut album, the presence and sound stage listening to Karajan (1812 overture), the absolute silence required in the system before the flutes start playing the intro into Bolero(never could understand why the record was so hard to listen to until I got this system optimized, and I could go on about the quality of the sound. I truly think the stiffness of the carbon fiber arm clamped to the air bearing spindle was one of the keys to getting the system performance up. Also, the upgrade to silver tonearm wires made a tremedous difference. The vta adjustment is nice, but i do not think it had as significant impact as the stiffness of the armwand system. I also really like the dampening system since it now longer swings above the record. That is a small issue but now i do not have to worry about it as i am changing LPs.
Thanks for all of the input and ideas from various members of the forum especially Crem1 and Piedpiper (2 other maplenuts!). I have really enjoyed listening to how others have improved this line of table. |
Threaders: Just a mention ... HarborFreight.com is advertizing a Air Filter / Regulator # 1118 for $20 in store , $27 online. I use one with my Maplenoll and feel it has contributed to my satisfaction with the Air Control System. You can go to the web site and examine the detailed instructions. Don't purchase unless you feel it shall improve your current set-up. Just remember the all the pipe threads must be sealed to be really impressive. Any air leaks totally delay the results until sealed. |
Crem1
Thanks for the kudos and speedy recovery. You will be in our prayers. I will have some pics of the oil dampening system in this new configuration soon. Still experimenting with different viscosity of oil and tapered pins to optimize the dampening. I found out pretty quickly, too much dampening is not a good thing. You lose the delicate details pretty easy. |
Oilmanmojo: Just a tad too busy with non-audio stuff. Great pic's and information. |
I finished the wiring on the arm using the lighter weight, silver wire. At the point, I am going to take a break from tweaking and just listen a while. The silver wire has resulted in a brighter high frequency and more resolution of the highs. Cymbals, glass bells, etc have far greater clarity, also I have found i need less volume from my system to get the same sound levels (using a sound meter). Not sure if this was just from the silver wire compared to the stock copper wire, or the fact I am going right from the tonearm to the stepup. (less length of cable and few connections). I still need to hook up the dampening trough but pretty impressed with the new setup |
I usually have it level but adjusted to get a better view of the zlift arrangement. THe reason up is not good is that a small move in arm height dramatically changes the force on the record. You were right on about the diameter of the wire. Ugh, 50 bucks down the drain! I am back at trying to handle the smaller diameter wire. thanks as always for your tips |
Oilman,
Looks very interesting. You may want to experiment with the angle of your counterweight. Lloyd recommends either down or even depending on the weight of the cartridge but never up. |
crem1--added some better pics of the arm and zlift before i tore apart to rewire with the small diameter silver wire. look under my system for new pics. |
The arm is working out fantastic. My digital camera is due back tommorrow so i will change out the pics on my system to show some details on the arm and zlift. The whole arm assembly i feel will compete with any arm combination out there for stiffness, ease of adjustment and sonics. I must admit piedpiper was right about the wiring inthat the 0.008 is just too stiff so I will try once again with the superfine wire. With the stock wire, the movement is ok but the sonics with the silver wire i think are better particularly with resolution of the high frequencies. I have always been impressed with the maplenoll when it came to bass response(very solid compared to my michell gyro) but the carbon fiber arm with the clamp system i am using has been a noticable improvement. The post clamp that connects the carbon fiber wand to the air bearing spindle is so much stiffer than you can get with the stock maplenoll arm even with superglueing the connections. I might be off, but i think that is probably the big improvement in the bass response as well as lower distortion on some albums. The zlift also is so sweet because it has allowed me to determine for each type of record, very precise settings to ensure vta is optimized. It has a scale that I can quickly move to as I change records of varying thickness. I still have not hooked up the dampening trough so i do not know if that will improve the sound but from my previous experience with the maplenoll stock arm, the bass became a lot more solid. I will report back once i get it installed. Since i have installed the new arm assembly, i am finding the optimum vta is lower than the stock arm while using the dampening trough (ie the tail of the cartridge is lower now). I am still experimenting with vta and vtf but so far, i think the tweak has been a tremendous improvement. Again the biggest improvement is an even more solid bass response, lower distortion on some of my "difficult albums" and a little wider and deeper soundstage. I also have leveled and balanced the lead platter and recoating with acrylic paint. I have noticed the wobble on the platter to improve but I think the teflon bushing has a little free play thus allowing a little wobble. It is not impacting the sound as best as I can tell but I will look to change the bushing once i find out i suitable replacement. I do have some of the stock carbon fiber tube left (enough to make at least two more arms) if you are interesting in it. Again, if you want i can send the material list for the clamp, and zlift also. I found the total cost of the upgrade including the silver wire was less than 200 dollars. |
Oilman: How is the Tonearm ? |
My digital camera is on the fritz so I took the pics with my camera phone. I will get some hi quality pics on my system soon and for those interested, will send close up pics and material lists to assist if you want to perform a similar tweak. I am still trying to handle the small diameter wire based on Piedpipers comments. The arm assembly is more stable with the clamp arrangement and I think that is part of the increased bass response and depth to the soundstage. I also think the high purity silver wire will also improve the sound but still working on that one. |
Oilman: Kudo's to you . The tonearm does appear impressive and most certianly is a significant improvement over the stock model. Unfortunately, I'm a little fuzzy on the mechanics based on the pic's. I would appreciate a few more pics and close-ups whenever you have the time. Congratulations on your accomplishment. |
Congratulations! sounds very cool. I'd love to see a good picture of the Z lift arrangement.
.008 is quite thick and may have adverse effects on tone arm movement. The wire I use is much thinner than even .003. It is a pain to work with but worth it. |
Update on my tweaks to my Maplenoll. I have installed the zlift, graphite armtube and new headshell. I have decided to go up a couple of sizes with the silver wire because of difficulty with the O.OO3 wire. I will use 0.008 which is still much lighter than the existing wire used on the stock maplenoll arm. My fingers are just not nimble enough!:) I am currently using the wire from the old arm so I have gotten a chance to test fire the setup. The arm is much lighter so I had to remove one of the counterweights to get the system balanced. Now the exciting thing is with the zlift, I can do on the fly VTA adjustment which has allowed me to fine tune my vta while actually listening to a record. The movement of the adjustment is very smooth so there is no skipping or bouncing of the stylus while adjusting the height. The Zlift is a very ridgid and no free play at all. The lift is securely fastened to the plinth and the air bearing spindle is attached to the lift. The results are impressive. When you can hear changes while making the move, its much easier to find the sweet spot. The results with the carbon fiber arm and optimized vta are a stronger/solid bass response, wider soundstage and more clarity. WHat I mean by better clarity is that some albums I had some distortion or muddled sounds particurily with female vocals (stevie nicks on Rumours album as an example). That distortion is gone.
All in all, I think the modifications have improved the table in particular the stiffness of the arm assembly and the ability to easily adjust VTA.
I still have to install my damping trough and I am going to go directly from the arm wiring to my phono stage to see what improvement less cables will provide. I have included 1 pic on my system profile and will try to get some better pics up soon |
Oilman: Quite exciting. Very professional job. Looking forward to your comments on performace , ect. in the near future. |
