@erik_squires I never remember that I also have 2 REL T/7i subs that have 200W output amps each, necessitating individual power sources due to placement & available near outlets. They are both (I think) on separate circuits and 17' apart. Off hand, just wondering if by chance, you know of anything similar to the Furman electronics (prefer without a power surge) that would only be used to cleanup the circuits each is plugged into. Would only be used for each sub only, plug the sub into it then into wall circuit?
New Dedicated 20A Circuit Wiring Questions
Hello All-
Sorry for the length but I spent allot of time trying to make this as clear as possible and straight forward with all info I felt relevant.
I had a low grade buzz/hum in my current system, had to upgrade home power service to 200A and ran a dedicated line to the stereo while at it. The house also has a home surge protector on incoming power now.
Overall Thoughts on Wiring (with time to make changes if necessary)
I have 12/2 solid Romex with Hubbell PVC 1-gang box and Hubbell extra HD hospital, isolated ground #IG8300R outlet. To this red/orange outlet, the ZeroSurg with a duplex outlet is plugged in (using the ZeroSurg equipped power line).
Into 1 of the outlets of the ZeroSurg is plugged a new AntiCables level 3 power cord. This power cord then feeds into a Lowell Mfg 12” 15A (w/breaker) 7 outlet power strip. The power strip then supplies the stereo needs. Of Note here are a number of Anticable L3 power cord reviews that documented owners who experienced a decrease in noise (out the speakers) with use. Yes, that influenced me, wouldn’t that be a nice benefit.
The pathway noted in above paragraph was recommended to me by Paul (owner) from AntiCables. Paul also recommended plugging all my stereo components into the power strip that now serves the 20A dedicated line.
Curious about any recommendations to better this with additional info supplied below. Due to reading on this forum and others I have questions concerning noise from ground loop and/or RFI, EM which I want to keep in check.
Some facts about my vintage system to keep in mind:
1) I’m thinking the cleanest AC will be that which has passed through the ZeroSurge, then through the Anticable power line and offered in the power strip to the stereo?
2) Not to forget, there is one extra outlet left open on the Hubble duplex 20A outlet of the dedicated line after the Zerosurg was plugged into it. There is also 1 outlet available on the duplex outlet of the Zerosurg after the other was taken by the Anticable L3 power cord supplying the power strip. Of course the available extra Zerosurge outlet is Zerosurg protected where-as the extra Hubble outlet is only protected by the Home surge protector.
3) My Yamaha C-85 Control Amplifier (Pre) has 6 AC outlets available on its rear panel, 5 switched and 1 unswitched. My Yamaha M-65 Class A Power Amplifier has 1 available unswitched AC outlet.
Things I’ve read of concern, and should I alter Paul’s wiring recommendation?
A) I have the SOTA Total Eclipse Package on my VPI Prime Turntable. The prime power is now delivered through the “Condor PSU” - Wall Wart; 24VDC 500mA and the “Road Runner Tachometer (RR)” - Wall Wart; 9VDC 300mA.
B) I also have a Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus, also a Wall Wart; 12VDC 200mA. Digital; my Pioneer Multi-Play CD, PD-M700.
Concern is 3 Wall Warts and a digital CD player. Simply put, I’ve read that these components by some audiophiles are dealt with independently of the analog direct 20A line. Seems the consensus is “wall warts” and “digital” are additional unwanted noise to the line (question here is a DAC digital?). Conundrum, 2 of those wall warts are my Prime! I have to have my turntable on the dedicated line don’t I? I don’t want to run 2,3,4-6 dedicated 20A lines, my system is far from that deserving.
So, to be complete; I have a Audiocontrol Octave Equalizer & Spectrum Analyzer which probably could be plugged into the power strip, Pre amp, or Power amp. Any preference that any of my components be plugged into the PreAmp/Amp components vs the power strip? I also have a VCR and Blu-Ray which I have plugged into a separate circuit on the wall, I have 4 more outlets of that non dedicated house circuit open.
In summary, if using Paul’s recommendation (all stereo components plug into Power strip). I would have 3 wall warts (including the 1- Dac and 2- TT), a digital CD player, Power Amp, Pre Amp (or plug Pre into available Amp outlet?), and EQ all on the dedicated line. Should “wall warts” or certain ones go to the wall outlets? Are there any benefits to plug a component into extra outlets on rear of Pre-amp vs into the power strip?
Dedicated isolated ground
I have read that a good method to wire ground wires was by using a “star” shaped ground bar but never found any online. So, I have a 4” length brass bar with 10 screws for securing ground wires and all my stereo components metal chassis ground wires run to it. Some components have thumb screws to attach your wires & others came with wire attached, all different sizes, strand or solid. I used what was given and also used sometimes size 14 copper. For no apparent reason I attached chassis grounds to the bar from both ends toward the middle, both ends equally ascending in size from small stranded to larger sizes toward the middle. Therefore, the center wire on the bar was the “main ground wire” & largest size (12) that will run directly to the Hubbell duplex outlet green grounding screw that also secures the 12/2 ground wire of the dedicated 20A line.
There are no other grounds run to that dedicated line except the “main ground line” from the brass bar. The 12/2 Romex is not encased by conduit, the Hubbell outlet is within a PVC single gang box. At the 200A service box the dedicated ground attaches closest to the incoming main house ground serving the house panel and other end at outlet as described.
If looking at my ground bar (from LT to RT) the components order (determined only by size & luck of the draw) resulted as follows: EQ CD Sota-Motor VPI-Main-Bearing MainGND-Line PreAmp+Amp Condor+RR DAC TruSweep. The MainGND-Line size 12 runs to Hubbell green GND screw.
Note: the PreAmp+Amp as well as the Condor+RR, both sets of grounds, were daisy chained in line, containing the 2 component chassis grounds as indicated(+) & secured to ground bar on 1 screw each as all others.
Any problems with this grounding scheme?
Thanks for any comments, suggestions-
Robes
Showing 8 responses by robes
Thanks everyone for your replies, very informative and I'm still working at taking in all the links supplied and reads. A few things I can readily respond to now follow: @lewm @mijostyn The ZeroSurge is a surge protector and the isolated ground goes back to main panel where the line originated from, the 20A breaker. Not sure what is meant by floating a ground around? My electrician said to keep the ZeroSurge despite the Home surge yet, it's likely overkill. I thought of plugging Pre-Amp into the Amp for it's power but a number of people say "cleanest" power is with the fewest connections between components (go to power source 1st if you can). This does seem logical.
@ditusa Thanks so much for that link, really helps clear things up on IG's and just what I have going- @erik_squires @elliottbnewcombjr I think this may be my best bet, a Furman SMP/LIFT but that is a big monster & I would need to have it near my stereo (not at my "cleanest most sterile zone"). The manual for it says not to have another surge in line (I have the ZeroSurge already),I would have to loose the ZeroSurge but wish the Furman came without the surge, just the filtering aspect that would address the " 3 wall warts". From comments, rec's & reading I think I need to put all my stereo power draws on the strip (including the wall warts) and keep all my chassis grounds from those components on the isolated ground within the dedicated line (for a number of reasons including ground loops). The Furman P-1800 PF-R seems another option but twice the price and worried that 2 TT wall warts and 1 DAC wart wouldn't fit leaving enough open outlets. I find the spacing of outlets on power strips usually too close, where-as 1 wall wart overlaps the next outlet rendering it useless. Really only want 1 power strip here that I can plug everything into, I've ruled out using my available wall power circuits due to GND Looping and poorer AC source, figure things have to be better if remove all from wall ac & go to dedicated line & ground. Thinking scrap the ZeroSurge go to Furman best choice I have so far- I also read where a 20A over a 15A circuit is better for more dependent constant voltage to the system as a reason for 20 over 15A. Likely no voltage regulator necessary on a sub audiophile grade system as mine, true or not, it's done. @squared80 An electrician & Power company upgraded the homes service to 200A, the new service has all new breakers and lines to the power pole. I assume the electrician new how to add the new line in phase since he moved all circuits into the new 200A service. I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible & fewest connections to power with concern over RF, & EMI. I'm sure the quality of my power source is also a factor that I have here in NW Montana on the western slope of the Swan Range ~ 3400 ft elevation in the woods. Power lines go down all the time due to tree falls, weather & such. |
@erik_squires I didn't even think about using my ZeroSurge for the dirty side, hopefully I would have in the next few years. I also had no idea that I could use a splitter. Guess the splitter wouldn't have to be a crazy expensive item since it should be accepting clean AC just as any of the other stock components with wired in power cords. So, beginning to see a solution here. I pickup the Furman PST-8 Dig to replace my new power strip (that is nothing but outlets) & the ZeroSurge. I then plug my AntiCables Level 3 power cord between 20A outlet and Furman. My analog system and CD player should be in good hands with it's wall warts plugged into the PST-8. I can then use the replaced ZeroSurge & no-frills power strip for my VCR, BLU-Ray & TV on the undedicated house wall circuit that supplied all of it before. This would have to be much better then the previous setup- |
@mijostyn I think I maybe falling through the cracks with my dated system. In reference to ("Floating ground means disconnecting the AC line ground from the device.") I have my dedicated 20A line 12/2. I have a 3 prong power line into that outlet, to which the other end will plug into likely the Furman PST-8 Dig power strip. This is all 3 prong lines leading to the power strip. All the stereo components plugging into that strip are 2 prong (lines w/o 3rd GND wire) power cords from each component. I have all those "plugged in components" chassis grounds run to a ground bar as described above (1st post 2nd to last paragraph). A single #12 ground wire from center of that bar runs back to the green ground screw at power outlet (pigtailed with the dedicated #12 GND wire) which is common to the AC third prog there. NOTE: There were 1 or 2 components that had no screw or GND wire for a GND to run. On those, I removed covers and screwed a wire to the chassis so all components are grounded to the GND bar. Guess I'm not sure if a floating GND with my 2 prong components would/could work in my case? |
@ditusa I'm not using MC Galvanized Steel Metal Clad Cable. A metal conduit is not required to meet code in this situation. I'm using a Hubbell hospital grade outlet, heavy duty, nothing special about it. I have a PVC 1 gang box HD. The Hubbell yolk is isolated from making contact with a metal box (I have no metal box), so it's isolated despite that, probably didn't need it for that reason but it's far superior in all aspects compared to a $2.00. I could have done things better but this is what I'm stuck with now & will be better then before which wasn't bad. I looked that thread over and don't see what or where you cannot use Romex, Maybe you could tell me page 1 or 2, by who? it isn't the isolated GND as with using the clad/conduits, but better than the house wired circuits, only serves the stereo that's all. I've read allot of threads and feel that nothing is wrong here just "always" can be much better with more money-
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@erik_squires Thanks for the link on surge protectors/filters for my REL subs. I ended up, hopefully, finding a good deal, a 2-pack: Furman SS 6B Pro |
@mijostyn @erik_squires Finding a meter and learn how to use it would be costly in time for me. it takes me days to buy anything because I have to see all available, reviews, comparisons, etc. then read, watch videos how to use it. It's not fun to be me when I'd rather get this mess together first and see, Thought more grounds would be better, didn’t realize what the floating ground business was. I plan to try rewiring without using any of the grounding I added to the non-grounded chassis components. Will leave all disconnected chassis ground wires that I added to components ( mentioned below in below discussion) nearby to more easily reconnect to test if I hear hum that wasn’t there before. See EQ below, Recommendation is EQ to receive its power from PreAmp. Would this be due for floating GND? I have open filtered outlets left on Furman PST? Last paragraph under TT, the motor housing mount to lead puck I grounded before, will not this time. But the motor, 2 wall warts, condor & Roadrunner are not actually attached in any way except by motor/platter belt(non conductive), so thought maybe wouldn’t hurt to keep that ground? Will run all 3 wall warts (ww) and CD to Furman PST sharing the 2 ultra-sonic filtered outlets using Y splitters. Therefore 2 ww to one outlet, 1 ww & CD to other outlet. Leaving me 4 unused filtered outlets unless EQ is added. VPI PRIME TT The TT has GND nut. Added a 14 awg from TT bottom spindle nut to TT GND nut (per rec’s by a number of owners who say spindle never grounded). Plan to GND TT (as mentioned) to ground bar. TT Power plugs = 2 wall warts connecting to Furman PST-8 Digital Power station “ultra sonic” receptacles. NOTE: PreAmp manual suggests grounding TT to PreAmp but if Hum develops to remove it. No plan to do this. My TT has been upgraded with the Total Eclipse Package, from Sota Turntables. It includes: new Motor, Condor PSU, and Roadrunner (RR) tachometer. The Condor and RR each have separate “wall warts” and no grounding screws or wire from their small chassis or the motor housing. All 3 units interconnect with each other. The Condor also has ~1/4” contained power cable which couples and screws tight to the motor housing. Previously, I ran a GND wire between the Condor & RR component boxes then onto the GND bar. Will not this time. The new belt driven Sota motor within the original VPI housing is external to TT. The motors stainless steel housing has 4 rubber feet to inhibit crawl when running. I previously removed feet and pinned the housing to a 5” diameter x 1” thick puck of pure lead (to increase its weight). Previously, I grounded this motor housing/lead junction to the ground bar. Plan not to ground this time. CONTROL (PRE) AMP (Yamaha) The Power Amplifiers manual suggests running its GND to the Preamps GND. Plan to ground Amp to PreAmp terminal and onward to ground bar as before. PreAmps Power cord to Furman PST-8D. AMP (Yamaha) Amp GND to PreAmp (as before, per owner manual). Power cord to Furman PST-8D. EQ No GND screw or wire. Will not run chassis GND this time. Per EQ Manual rec’s, will plug Power Cord into switched connect on PreAmp. CD No GND screw or wire. Will not run chassis GND this time. Power Cord to Furman PST “ultra-sonic” filtered receptacle DAC No GND screw or wire.Will not run chassis ground this time. Power cord “wall wart” to Furman PST “ultra-sonic” filter I have Ground/Lift Switch set to GND. From Manual: Ground/Lift switch: When Grounded the Dacmagic Plus is connected to the earth connection of the PC directly. When Lifted the ground connection is made via a network designed to break any hum loops that may be caused by the source equipment. We advise using the Grounded setting unless audible hum is experienced.
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@erik_squires I also got the Furman PST-8 Digital on Amazon for $199, the one with IEC so I can use my Anticables Pwr Cord. I went with the SS 6B Pro due to it's EVS (as the PST-8), 2 pack price. The 2 subs will have to be happy with that- |