New Construction Acoustic Design & Consulting


I need a professional consultant to work with my architect to help build as perfect a listening room over my garage as possible. RIVES is one possibility but I don't want to spend 10K just for the consulting work. I would like to build in as much sound isolation and room treatment as possible like that done for this person:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm--

Could I use ASC as a primary consultant and RIVES for after the room is built to do the final touch ups and room treatment? They only charge $100 for the engineer to help render sketches and make suggestions for the contractor.

acousticsciences.com

I would need detailed plans so that the architect would know how to impliment the built-in bass traps etc. I would need help with the specifics of window and door selection (materials) and placement, room dimensions, ceiling slope, floating floor, isolation etc... Please also see the list of ideas below. RIVES charges a fortune to render drawings based on a computer modeling system. I am not sure all of that makes sense until after the room is built, furnished and then tested, but certainly it is advantageous to build in as much acoustic isolation and treatment as possible from an aesthetic and cost perspective. Please comment on some of the suggestions below:

Room sizes

13X21X8 Feet
14 X18X8 Feet

windows o.k.
According to Dave Wilson

1. pitch ceiling height lower over speakers, higher over listener
2. Build bass traps into the wall
3. Corner loaded bass traps
4. Bass trap all four vertical corners and the ceiling perimeter corner with a soffit bass trap
5. Room dimensions:
Must over-size room by minimum of 6 inches walls, floor, and ceiling to allow for buildouts for acoustic treatments and sound isolation
A. 13-15 feet wide by 15-23 feet long
B. Room height 7-9 feet
must account for additional height of "floating floor"
C. Wall/stud resonance treatment and constrained layer damping: 1. Sandwich two layers of sheetrock. ? Gyproc Soundbloc 1.5 soundproofing plasterboard 2. Suspend sheetrock off studs by screwing into resilient metal fir strips called "z-metal" or "RC-1" 2. Visco damping material {1/16 " thick double sided adhesive visco-elastic sheet} is applied between the z-metal and the first sheet rock layer and a second visco-elastic sheet between the first and second layers. In place
of double sided adhesive visco-elastic sheet, can 100% glue to both sides a layer of sound board {firtex or celotex}. ? Staggered studs. The ceiling must be treated the same way.
D. Locate entry door behind the listner but on a SIDE WALL {nowhere near the speakers since the door will raddle} NOT ON A BACK WALL AND not flush to the corner and at least 2 feet from the corner. Door cannot rattle? Heavy acoustic door/frame?
E. Windows are very tympanic and should be avoided. Tall narrow windows are best.
Must not use standard thermal type instead use 2 layers of thick laminated glass [like that used for glass shelving in stores] separated by at least 4 inches of air space. The air space must be vented into the wall cavity. Set the glass into a bed of visco-elastic damping material. The glass sheets should be of different thicknesses.
F. Lighting should be subdued, indirect, and dimmable. Do not use standard wall dimmers since they will often hum or buzz. Use a variable voltage transformer. Consider low voltage lighting. Do not use ceiling cans, they rattle. The best light has a ceiling bezel and lens of thick rounded glass. Consider creating a false ceiling to hide projector, cabling, HVAC
ventilation big problem if room needs to be airtight to insure adequate sound isolation and room damping from the rest of the house
G. Address side wall, rear wall, and ceiling reflections which are determined by speaker placement. Room dimensions must account for acoustic panels
dbk

Showing 5 responses by soundprogression

Rives Audio knows what it's doing and doesn't have a vested interest in any specific product. If you were to go to ASC, RPG, PMI, Echo Busters and etc there is an inherent conflict between selling a product and selling a design. There are many good products to use but you need a plan first. I use ASC often for instance but I can't use it all the time. I see too many people throw too much money and ineffective material into the room (I'm not referring to ASC).

I would suggest dividing the problem into sections:

Noise control-mostly lower frequencies

Do you need it. If not then don't make the walls exotic but simple sheetrock, studs and fiberglass. You can do it better but simple walls work quite well.

If you do need it put more massive isolation walls on the outside walls. Sound isolation works regardless of which side of the wall your on.

If you must put the isolating stuff on the inside of the room it gets complicated and you need a consultant. The room sill needs to "breath", "be diaphramatic" or damped.

Small rooms have very distinct bass modes. Speaker and seating positions are very important. Bass traps are a very long story I can't share in one response. I'm already long winded.

Sound Performance-mid to high frequncies

Almost every room needs some form of absorption to make the reverberant energy in the room decay but you need to have a broad band absorption and some diffision. Furniture (soft), bookcases (not completly full), some carpet or a rug or two. Fortunately, smaller rooms need absorptin than big ones. There's a formula you can easily find to estimate the decay time (RT60) for your room. It's always wrong for small rooms but it gives you an idea of how much other soft absorptive stuff you need in the room. Just don't put lots of thin big fiberglass of foam in your room. It's the best way to waste your money.

Lower frequencies<~250Hz

You need to know about the rooms behavior either form testing or modeling. Try CARA CAD. It's a great modeling tool and cheap or buy ETF and test the room or hire a consultant to at least take a look at just this part. Bass behavior is a hard subject.

Last word: Good small room consultants are worth every penny and Rives is one of the better ones.

I couldn't agree more although there are other competent consulants that maybe be near the site location.
Whoa guys,

This is about helping a person make good choices for his room. It's not adequate to tell a person that they have to use a good consultant. Neither is it helpful to tell someone that only experience and experimentation is the way to go. I think we'd all like this person to have a good sounding room. To me, for a person with a limited budget, they'd probably be better off using moderation in all things.

Assuming you do it yourself.

Read everything, believe common agreements between individuals and know that no one product will fix all your rooms issues.

Low freqencies are the most dificult so I'd want the dimensions to be reasonable (no cubes or squares) and make the walls bass lossy (thin GWB and fiberglass in the interior). At least that way room modes will be damped a bit. Then experiment with speaker and seating placement.

Mid to high frequency absorbers are easiet to install after the walls are up so maybe wait until the furiniture is in.

If want to use a consultant:

Call dealers, search the web, call your speaker manufacturer to see what they'd like to see in your room or if they know who might help.

I agree there are way to many consultants that don't know how to create a good sounding space and I know there are a few that do. Some of them don't charge much for a phone call or a simple review of plans.
Although all the discussion have been interesting, the original questions and limitations you put forward were that you couldn't afford to put out lots of money on a consultant and that you had restrictions on the room dimensions.

Rather than focusing on I'd specifics first I'd ask you to identify clearly, the limitations of the space (size, windows, doors), the actual usage of the room (just you, multi-channel), cosmetic restrictions and the construction costs. After those are clearly identified then work on the practical aspects of the design.

Q. Floating floor
A. Floating floors are most often used to isolate rather than improve the interior acoustics of the room. I prefer to seperate surfaces (walls, ceiling, floors) into two things, lossy or isolating. As Mikelavigne already said he has a concrete floor (concrete is not lossy but is generally isolating) with no floating floor and it sounds great. That probably means that the lossy part is in the construction of the walls, ceiling and acoustical materials (bass absorbers).

I prefer predictable spaces (flat ceiling, parallel walls, shoebox) for the basic structure constructed as a damped diaphramatic shell using sheetrock. There are several good ways to make a wall damped and lossy or damped and isolating (ASC Wall damp system as example). Low frequencies are predicitable. We know pretty close to where the speakers should be and where we should sit. You can always add bass absorbers that changes the shape of the room baised on the needs of the room.

Q. Ceiling Design?
A. As I stated above I like predictable lower frequency spaces but that doesn't mean we can't add more materials to the interior to change the shape and behavior of lower frequecies and up.

Clouds built into, on or suspended from the ceiling work great. The choice of materials is strictly dependent on the rest of the acoustical materials in the room. If you have adequate broad band absorption on the walss then the ceiling usually diffusive concentrated between you and the speakers and over your head. You can use RPG Skylines, Omni's or only the open finished cavities of the floor joists above. or, if you have now where else to put broad and absorption the ceiling is a great place to get it out of the way without usually doing much harm but much good.

Attic spaces with pitched ceilings are an excellect places to suspend a cloud over the pitch or directly attached to the ceiling.

Q. Diagonal rooms
A. Really hard to do well. You have the built in benifit of very low first reflections since the sidewalls fade away but now you have to figure where to sit. Most of the time they work well if you set up the room like a mixing room with the speakers as near field monitors with the rear walls a ways back. Those base modes want to react with the parallel walls even if you have the speakers outside a corner and the rear walls now have first reflections that wouldn't occur otherwise. So you are forever deciding which mode/reflection to treat and mode to avoid/not avoid. Have I seen any work, absolutely. Have I seen more fail, absolutely.

The room size is the room size. The axial modes take precident (LxWxH). The tangentials and oblique modes (longer wavelengths)are general down in strength 6-12dB and only could be benificial if there is a concurrance of a weak axial modes with strong "other" modes.

Please anyone chime in. I really like a discussion of the issues for a non-price no object individual. I'm always interested in technical reasonings and lesser so with anecdotal experiences but they still may be helpful.

Dbk, maybe you could clarify my ealier questions to help us (the forum) help you sharpen your focus.

I've run the numbers several times in several ways and the room appears to be too wide to behave well at lower frequencies (<250Hz) If you reduce the width 18" a big potential hole goes away around 50Hz. I don't see any reason why you couldn't have an excellent room given the modest restrictions of the room. You also have the flexiblity of placing your seating and speakers where they will do well.

The cost of the complete build would be between you and your contractor.

I'm an industry insider when it comes to these subjects and need to avoid promoting anyone but if you're spending that kind of money you should have someone help you. I'd look up "acoustical design home theater consultants" in a google search and work your way through a few pages and call some people or just ask people on this forum to give you names. Anyone want to throw out some names? Try RPG's website and go through the residential dealer list. You can except/reject them quickly with a few well framed questions.

Also, you can limit the fee for the consultant's help by reducing his/her responsiblities for inspection and drawing details. If you allow the consultant to drop the complete detail package you should find one that you can afford (try 2-5% of the build out).

Good mid/high frequency acoustical materials are modest in cost with low frequency absorption significantly more. That's the easy part except you need to make it fit the decor. Fancy stretched fabric over acoustical materials (whole walls) costs more than exposed fabric wrapped materials.

Please keep in mind our earlier threads and try to avoid exotic solutions. I'll answer as many more specific questions I can but my available time is limited and I won't be able to follow for awhile.