Neutral electronics are a farce...

Yes, I’d say you were not exactly correct, but for a different reason. This exact problem is one I found a solution for after stumbling onto Alan Maher Designs in 2010. I keep going on about AMD, from time to time at least, and nobody may pay me much mind about it I suppose, but I can understand that really since AMD is too new and too out there for anyone to feel they have any kind of real-world frame of reference, and so there is too little advertising or user reports yet for most people to have something to go by or to be able to latch onto that particular concept of reducing electrical noise.

But, I think you are absolutely *correct* in identifying that there is indeed a problem...that there is a rather noticeably large gulf between all but the very most expensive gear (or presumably, at least, since many of us don’t easily visit that economic strata) and the real-world (lack of) performance in regard to what you noted vs the descriptions of "neutral"-sounding gear. But, what I’d tell you, based on my experience for the last 6 years with AMD, is that what I think you’re are bumping into here is really an "electrical noise" problem - not any equipment issue at all and not a recording problem either. If sinking more that $10k into AMD gear (and quite happily) over the last 6 years has taught me anything, it’s that all recordings are perfectly fine (the bad ones make up entirely less than 1% [I listen to CD’s]) and that most every piece of gear is far better than we give it credit for - that is to say that electrical noise crushes the life out of music FAR more than the average audiophile ever suspects...or may feel they have reason to suspect. When you get rid of noise on a large scale, all sorts of longheld sonic problems clear up entirely (the kind that also, likewise, usually get blamed on gear or recording quality), but the problem of neutrality here is certainly one of them. Without the noise problem present (and yes, it is everywhere, trust me), then EQ behaves like a dream, not a bandaid, digital sounds better than reel-to-reel, your gear never dictates what you might ever want to listen to...on and on like that. Every system then can reach it’s potential because all the components can then operate at full spec (or better than spec if the spec in question was arrived at by real-world measurement rather than calculation). That not only extends the bandwidth in the room, but it more importantly flattens it as well. If flattened enough, then neutrality improves tremendously...it has the overall effect, too, of increasing both accuracy And musicality at the same time.

This is a solution to one of those problems that I think it seems the audiophile community at large has yet to catch on to, and yet sometimes, like you point out here, it’s hard to ignore the elephant in the room that is the apparent disconnect between system performance and cost and that it too often seems that working one’s way up the audio food chain only really seems to be asking to repeat the problem. It’s just that I believe that, IME, it is in fact explained by neither recording quality nor gear quality, but indeed can be explained by electrical noise alone...you just need to be able to throw enough of the solution at the problem to reveal to you the true nature of both. As always, I am not affiliated with Alan or AMD in any way, just a satisfied customer.

Neutral IS attainable...very much so; as a valid audio concept it is alive and well, even if only in a purely subjective sense. But, brightness, darkness or bass-heavy etc, are nothing more than frequency response issues and can be fully corrected as such. What cannot be corrected in that way are the effects of colorations. That is a different problem with a different solution. I’m not talking about just speaker boxes, although that is certainly part of it. What I’m talking about here are the colorations in the components, passive crossovers and the wiring - ALL of the wiring...power cords, IC’s, speaker, all the in-wall wiring, breaker box wiring - everything. Yes, it is about EMI/RFI and yes, it is about magnetic fields. (I happen to think Geoff was in the middle of making a very good and valid point about magnetic fields here originally before he was so shrewdly interrupted ;-)

But, be that as it may, there’s still such a thing as non-neutral gear, pro or audiophile. We’re all probably aware of the nature of, say, the amp market at around, say, $3k or less. ’Rogue’ amp designers trying to make a name for themselves by giving us "more" of some particular favored attribute when we really know that it really can’t happen that way without giving up some other still-desirable attribute in the design process. We know this is true because if they were able to give us more of the good stuff without ever sacrificing anything elsewhere, then everybody would be making amps that way...there would be only one way to go to get the best sound and clearly that’s not the case, is it? There is no free lunch. And then there are, just for example, all those low cost tube amps that are known (and even sought) for their colorations (yielding some ’tonal color’ to a degree and "sweetness")...whether those colorations predominantly belong to the tubes they are using or to their amp design. I don’t really want to take anything away from those folks who prefer going this route, it’s all good and perfectly valid...it’s just not my particular cuppa, but I respect it 100% but, that’s because I know there are so many more buying factors that go into those choices than what I can include here.

My prior amps were the little (but mighty) Monarchy SM-70 Pros (single-ended transistor design). Long on timbre, but short on good string sounds, but overall somewhat colored through the lower mids and to lesser extent up into the midrange. It took a long time for me to fully figure out why I could never get EQ to sound right, no matter how much I experimented, measured or listened. Sometimes it sounded FAR better than I would’ve thought it had a right to - and then suddenly it would sound ’off’ or unnatural on the next disc - or even on the next track. No amount of Alan Maher Designs electrical noise reduction gear could neutralize that. When I ’upgraded’ to the less expensive and pro-sound Crowns I’m using now, Bam - that problem disappeared entirely. EQ now is set it and forget it...no measuring needed.

I suspect, though, that for some audiophiles, there may be perhaps too much of this kind of gear available to sift through and because most audiophiles don’t start out with the experience level to avoid buying this kind of gear initially, manufacturers may interpret this as ’demand’ and may respond by making more. But, there may be a certain frustration level out there by those who are not finding the neutral kind of gear they’re looking for, so they may end up feeling they are forced to go the "natural" sound route, instead. Not necessary, maybe, but IMO understandable possibly, given the lay of the land.

As for solving colorations (the electrical ones, not physical), I was able to solve that with AMD gear...but, my components had to be inherently neutral enough as well.

I define ’neutral’ then as having no colorations, a sound that is equally adept at reproducing "lush", "sweet", "brash" and "shrill". (Also can be used to describe a sound stage that’s neither too far to the front or to far to the rear).


Congrats to Peyton Manning!

Atmasphere, the real ’good and valid point’ I felt Geoff to be making there (and I didn’t fully make this clear above) is simply that magnetic fields do have an adverse impact on sound. Who is right or not on the theoretical details I’m not really qualified to answer.

" This was around the issue of balanced line connections, which can be used to eliminate problems of cable construction and colorations as well as the effects of magnetic fields impinging the cable. BTW, this is not to say that EMI/RFI isn’t a problem; Geoff was right about that); what I am saying is the if you run balanced lines and the equipment supports the balanced line standard then the cables will have almost no effect on the sound and it will get around the problem of EMI impinging the cable."

This is technically true. However it is Wholly insufficient to fight either magnetics or EMI/RFI in the **system** - that is to say with its sonic performance overall. This is because they both have Sooo many other points of entry into the system and just protecting the IC’s alone can never, and will never, cut it.

My system uses balanced lines from source to amps. But, if that were anywhere near sufficient by itself, then the $10k’s worth of Alan Maher Designs gear I’ve bought over the last few years that is designed specifically to deal with both magnetics And EMI/RFI should have made no impact on the sound and that is plainly not the case at all. It makes a "night and day" difference...and yes, as in a ’whole new system’ level of difference. What I’m saying is that balanced lines, in the grand scheme, make no appreciable difference...**once you’ve caught on to just how bad the overall picture of magnetics/EM/RF vs system performance actually is**, that is.

Understood. Last I checked, I believe my system was full differentially balanced, but since some of it is modified I should 'triple check' that, to be sure. But, to make clear for anyone else, I've certainly found balanced lines to make an audible difference in my systems (the degree of which depending on the gear) prior to using AMD. It's just that after doing so, switching out between single-ended and balanced has no longer made an audible difference, under my roof.

Roger,

"I believe you can have both a neutral system and a natural system. After all - if your understanding of "neutral" means no top end or bottom end exaggerations or no coloration's etc., wouldn't the default term be "natural" as well - meaning that a system that can deliver a flawless performance in your listening room would have to be considered natural?"

Generally speaking, I certainly believe that if you do have a neutral sound then the overall result will indeed be more natural overall, no question...and as far as that goes, I would add that there would also be more realism as well. At least, that's what I'd say I am experiencing here. But, the idea of neutrality as a separate issue was raised that way in the OP and that was the way I was responding to it...but, yes, I regard it as simply an integral part of the whole. But, if you ask me, I would think that trying to pursue realism and naturalism without neutrality might make for a little tougher sledding in the long run, but to each his own, I suppose.

"This is an interesting observation which can mean one of two things.
1. You have very good gear with not too much of a problem with external interference.

2. You have arrived at a combination of gear that has masked the benefits or the "sounds" of either configuration."

Yes, IME I find it's actually a rather striking observation (which is why I made the comment, really), but that has been one of the differences made by Alan Maher here. In truth, I would say I have moderate gear and a greatly reduced level of external interference...far below what is normally encountered. Again that's from the AMD here.

"Except now it is worse because if they upgrade one component that gives them truly better detail, it further exposes a harshness in some component up stream and they either have to get another replacement for it or put the first one back in so it is tolerable."

That is what the AMD here is really all about. It has eliminated that result for me. Instead, all I've had to consider all the technical aspects of system synergy. Reducing the noise in the system's environment wholesale has allowed me to consider a far wider range of equipment without ever running into the "harshness" conundrum. It even allowed me to use less expensive gear and get stellar results.

"When someone gets the bug be can't afford much, the old guys tell the newbees how to get the best sound for the buck. You simply get a "bright" sounding preamp to drive a "good" power amp with poor top end that emphasizes the mids and bottom end. This uses one component as pre-emphasis and a second for de-emphasis. You end up with the perfect mix of zig and zag and you save a lot of money. Yes? 
Well, it might be a good place to start but it will be quickly disappointing. 
It is hard to fool your ears with anything that contains distortion - even if it is the "good" kind."

Agreed, this is always worth avoiding...although to be fair, the old guys, whenever they may be handing out such advice, are usually up against the most severe budget restraints of newbees when they do so, but personally, I'm with you.

Regards
John