More good stuff! I have wondered about the Totem Manis. I should put them on my list of speakers to hear. I also like the headphone idea. That might give me a good option for chamber works while allowing me to continue upgrading the Maggie based system. I'm hoping more suggestions continue to come in, but I've gotten a good starting point and some ideas that would not have occured to me. |
Frogman, Thanks. I knew I was asking for a lot, but I thought taking faithful reproduction of Mahler out of the picture might simplify things, though doing the Shostakovich piano quintet right is no small feat. I hadn't thought of quads. That might be interesting to try. But you know, I remember some pretty convincing recordings of piano trios (yes, a much easier ensemble to record) with my old ADS 570s back in the early 80's. Convincing with respect to stage if not dynamics and timber. In this day of 20-40K monitors, I thought we might have some interesting trickle down by now. I could probably have the Pacifica live in my living room for less. I need to start sitting dead center first row and close my eyes to get that reality check. I usually sit just to the left of the first violin, about three rows back, where I face the cello straight on.
Elizabeth, it's not really resolution that is the problem. The system resolution is quite good actually, and I think my power conditioning is pretty good although I have a ways to go on the PC's. I will take your suggestion as a reminder to start upgrading the PC's and I might get some help there. The problem is that because of my room size and the fact that the maggies are out 5 ft from the back wall, I'm listening near field. Quartet seating has the first and second violins together on the left, sitting only 2-3 ft apart., with 2nd violin seated pretty much behind the first with only a slight left to right offset as a microphone would see them. Even in a live performance, I need some help from my eyes to know who is playing what. Much of the violin's range is in the ribbon and much of it is in the midrange, which inevitably gives some smearing of a violin placed either left or right of center stage. A dead center violin, as in a Bach partita, does not suffer from this effect and reproduces as a well placed dead center image. Maggies inherently are at a disadvantage because of their design compared to point source types. If I were in a larger room, I think it would be better, but still probably not ideal.
Monitors and tubes are well known for superior spacial presentations. I was hoping someone had the magic combo for chamber music. |
Lots of good comments here.
Nonoise-The next round of auditioning will focus on chamber music. When I bought my Maggies, I used orchestral, choral, piano, chamber, every type I have, in order to get the best general purpose speaker. As far as recordings, I have a half a dozen Beethoven cycles, two Mozart cycles, Haydn on a viariety of labels, with numerous repeats on certain pieces, 3 Shostakovich cycles, a good mixture of Brahms, Dvorak, Bartok, Britten, the list goes on--hundreds of recordings on numerous labels by a variety of ensembles. I can't think of a single recording that does what I am looking for.
Charles1dad- I am very interested in the Coincident stuff. I need to hear some of their gear.
Rok2id, large scale works aren't perfect, its just that after extensive auditioning, the Maggies were the best at orchestral stuff at anything close to the price. Im also not surprised they can be quite convincing on a well recorded soloist with a central image. That is a much easier problem. I think Frogmans comments lead me to know where to start. With a live performance, seated center front, with my eyes closed. String quartets are a tough problem both for recording and play back. |
Rok2id, I do have a few that I'm sure won't get much playing time with headphones.
The headphones solves another problem too, which is early morning listening. My wife goes to bed at about 3 AM and I get up at 5. When I retire, the headphones will get me my morning listen. Right now I am thinking the headphones ought to be the first step. Trouble is, a lot of the stuff I had been itching to try was also mentioned above. I've wanted a set of Quads forever, and I am really interested in the Coincident gear. I want a bedroom system, and I thought the monitor/tube integrated could fit the bill there. Darn, just too much neat stuff out there, all with its own unique strenths and weaknesses.
There is a late Haydn quartet (Opus 70-80ish)that has a fugue where the melody rotates through each member of the quartet. I need to listen to that carefully, and see how the first and second violins are presented in space. That should be a pretty good test of what the system is capable of, and may also be a good piece for tweaking the toe in. |
Onhywy and Mapman, The room is 19 ft long, with the Maggies out 60" from the back(short)wall. My listening position is back as far as I can go, which means I'm about 12' from the speakers. I have Smith's book and found it useful. Interesting point on the concert hall experience. Its pretty much always the same crowd, same people in the front at every concert. A lot of the early quartets were written for very small rooms. The conversation between the instruments was a substantial part of the music. For me, sitting back further in a larger venue looses this aspect of quartets from the classical era. Orchestral (symphonic) arguably should be "together heard" as you are suggesting, but I'm not so sure this is what Haydn and Mozart had in mind for their quartets.
Mr. Tennis, No problem distinguishing (spacially or otherwise) the viola from the violins. The viola is (usually) far right, and the violins far left and left center, with the cello right center. Most of my recordings appear to be close miked. I can't think of a single string quartet recording that gives a mid hall perspective. This is part of the problem. The rather clear spacial distinction between the viola from the cello, the cello from the violins, and the viola from the violins, fails with the two violins.
My point with sitting front and dead center in a live concert was to determine what it might be possible to hear in a close miked recording if the system were ideal. If what I am seeking is not obtainable live, then perhaps I shouldn't be trying to recreate it. |
Learsfool, its been ages since I heard the Cornwalls. I did not like them with orchestral music, but as a speaker for chamber music they might be worth a listen.
Whart- I really do like the Quad suggestion. As you point out, they are legendary for a reason, and I've always wanted to own a pair. I've always known I couldn't live with them as my only speakers, but this could be the time to pull the trigger. My listening room is already set up around a narrow sweet spot (though the 3.7's are not as bad as previous Maggies). I will not want to change the amps at this time, so they will have to deal with solid state.
Rok2kid and Mr. Tennis-- I did some more listening last night -first to some old Haydn by the Takacs on Decca. I had forgotten how bad the recordings are. I never listen to them. They are miked away from the instruments, so that it sounds as if you are listening to the quartet seated at the opposite end of a tunnel 300 feet away. You get a rather tiny central image with no separation of the players. Next I listened to the Mozart Oboe quartet K370. This is the Linn recording and is very well done. Its close miked, but not too close. Good localization of the oboe and cello, but the violin and viola sound like they are seated pretty closely, so its hard to localize them in space. However, it is important to note that none of the instruments are larger than life, which really makes this recording compelling in its realism. This recording suggests to me two things-- Typical recording techniques are probably adding to the problem, but there may be a limit to what I can achieve with my current set up. |
Frogman, I love deep thinkers. As usual, you comments are golden, and you articulated well my thoughts on the violin problem. To answer your question, no, I had not thought about a pair of MMG's. I've heard them, and they are great for the money. I'm going to have to chew on that idea a bit. Unfortunately, the maggie dealer here closed, but I could still do an in home trial.
I have thought very, very seriously about your initial suggestion regarding the Stax and Quads. I have a faint memory of the Stax speakers when they were new, and recall that they were very will regarded. I have not heard them.
Do you think the stax could be moved around fairly easily, or would there be risk of damage? I am in a position to be patient for another restored pair to come up for sale.
On the quads, I could see using them in a separate basement system eventually and driving them with a nice integrated tube amp. I would think my 1000wpc Cary's might get the quads into trouble pretty quickly no matter how careful I am.
Since I opened this thread, I had a chance to listen to some chamber on a friends 50K system using Joseph speakers. I came out of that session wondering if I am just not expecting too much. I heard a similar presentation on his system.
The Maggies are going to smear violins because of the design. I think you are right, the discontinuity between the ribbons and quasi ribbons is substantially decreased, but it isn't zero. I wonder if the dipole design is not also a contributor. But still, the comparison with my friends system was a good calibration. I'm going to need to think long and hard about how to proceed, and do plenty of auditioning. |
