Dear friends: As you know there are two threads on almost the same subject.
I read with interest both and I can see that the Nagra owners as the people that already heard it are really satisfied ( good thing ) and reading around the Nagra ( in its website, Stereophile and other forums. ) I wonder why that " keenness ", let me to explain a little:
loking to its design and reading through JA evaluation the Nagra has some trouble with its high output impedance ( either on tube mode or SS one ) that build/produce frequency deviations ( colored the sound ) and like JA point out it needs a line stage with 100k ohms at input impedance but even with this impedance figure the Nagra is in " trouble ".
I can't understand why Nagra write in their website that the VPS is a good " mate " to the Nagra PLP where the input impedance is around 20K and where the VPS deviations/distortions will be higher: this is out of my mind and IMHO tell me between other things and with all respect to Nagra people that they don't take in count those critical quality performance subjects that are really critical in a phono stage.
Th VPS choose to use a nonbalanced design with step up transformers that add colorations/distortions and that IMHO makes more harm that help about.
But the " trouble " does not finish there but go on in the most important subject ( from my point of view ) in any phono stage: inverse RIAA eq. deviation, well the VPS is really bad on this regard and far from the recording and not only because its high RIAA frequency deviations but because ( too ) the asymetry between channels on the same subject, this means that the VPS RIAA it is not only with those high deviations but different for each channel: http://www.stereophile.com/phonopreamps/908nag/index5.html
Now, if you read MF review he point out the several and different colorations on the VPS, he is hearing what JA measures on it.
My interest is almost always to be nearest to the recording and I like to share with the people this same target and IMHO the VPS goes against it more than other phono stages out there: no, nothing is perfect.
I know that almost everyone of you ( owners ) are really satisfied with this unit and nothing wrong with that but I always like to understand what happen around an audio item comments/reviews and I like to have my feets down the earth.
So I read what you posted with those facts in mind to understand what in reallity are you saying/hearing on the VPS performance.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear John: As I posted I know that you like it and there is nothing wrong with that and if your toes were tapping that's very fine for you, I'm not against that.
My point of view goes a little " deeper " or better yet is more on what I almost always try to find: something that put me nearer to the recording.
I respect your opinion not only like a person but like a VPs owner but I think that my targets are a little different from yours ( but I know that as a whole you and me like that our toes stay tapping!! ).
I don't want to go very in deep in the subject but maybe is enough to say that everything the same I prefer an audio item that is more accurate to the recording: specially on phono stages.
John as a rule I don't like to add " colorations " ( any ) to what I hear that's why I'm extremely carefully about, for me to preserve the cartridge signal integrity all over the audio chain is a must to have/worry.
I'm not saying that the Nagra sounds bad NO what I'm saying is that add to many colorations to the cartridge signal, it is a product where the designers ( again IMHO ) does not care to much on the subject to preserve the cartridge signal integrity and for me is not acceptable from a quality performance point of view.
You and me know that many " colorations " are easy to our ears but this fact does not means that is right.
I can't applaud to Nagra for this design because like a customer I need that Nagra do it better ( lot better ) next time.
In other way, for example, I have to applaud Ralph from Atmasphere because he really cares about that beloved cartridge signal integrity in his latest design that from my point of view and from a design point of view is the best all tube design out there, no doubt about: the Atmasphere is a unique tube design by any standard: like it or not.
John I posted 2-3 times that we need to help to the designers/manufacturers on audio to grow-up but IMHO we are not helping when we applaud something that in essence goes aginst the quality performance.
Maybe some of us have to think in a whole new way about the whys/how/where/what to look in the very near future to achieve an elevate the whole quality performance in the high end industry.
John, many people speak about the importance of SYnergy in our audio home systems but several of them IMHO have a wrong understand on what really means Synergy.
A mistmatch impedance between two audio items preclude Synergy, some people cares more about that others.
I know that it is more easy to set up/conform a system where we don't care about that one where we care about, let me tell you this: when yo hear/heard a system with true/real synergy you can't go back, the differences are of paramount importance, the quality level performance is on other level, perhaps you never had that opportunity to heard/hear it and like you say: " next time you come to Mèxico " be my guest and of course if you have time I will be with you in my next trip to USA: a pleasure!.
Regards adn enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear jazz: from the design point of view IMHO the Nagra VPS is far away from Ferrari ( Ferrari is a especialist on car design where Nagra is not on phono stages. ) and like you say that's not the point.
Regards adn enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Jazz: ++++ " purity vs cohesion of the system, can we achieve both? " ++++
of course, this is one of the name of the game: purity it does not a fight against cohesion, ideally both subjects can live together for enhance our music enjoyment!!!!
Btw, your " old " P9 is a good one.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear hevac1: I respect your point of view but certainly I don't agree with. My comments on the VPS have the same " decorum " that the one over the Atmasphere. If you read carefully what I posted you could understand that I " go " to a more wide level subject(s) that only quality performance in the VPS item.
First than all I'm a music lover and second an audiophile : the Essential was a happy " accident " and I'm not married with it and don't makes me close my eyes with what is happening around: for the good or bad. It happens that I like to learn in a continuous way.
+++++ " Not everything on paper sounds good, thats why we listen. " +++++
exactly and that's why you have what you have and listen what you are listening.
In the MF review he certainly heard exactly how the VPS measure , of course that he has to be polite/corteus due that the magazine needs advertizing but he write about those VPS colorations/distortions.
There is nothing wrong with what you like, this fact is part of our each audio learning curve
Now, today audio " things " are improved in some ways and are different from the old times when we readed " incredible " audio item specifications and when we heard that item the sound was terrible, IMHO today is different the item sound is better and now you really can hear " inside " those specs. I always say that I'm nt a specs lover but as part of our learning curve and as part of my quest for " perfect " synergy " I have to choose very carefully some specs to decide about, example: RIAA eq. deviation, amplifier output impedance, preamp output impedance, etc, etc., these specs are critical as critical is a cartridge/tonearm match.
Imho we need to understand at least those specs and understand why are so important and how affect the quality performance in an audio system.
At other level of " things " IMHO we need too to understand the advantages and disadvantages of different kind of designs in audio items, example: non feedback VS feedback and where, balanced vs unbalanced, direct coupled, fully differential, etc, etc,, this is not only part of our audio culture NO it is part of our audio learning curve that can help us to improve and achieve our top quality performance targets in our home audio systems.
IMHO to bring a top quality performance audio system is not only a money subject but know how in different topics and is this know how what makes " the difference ".
You and me want to learn every day sometimes with very simple things that sometimes we can think are not important till we try it.
Anyway, the important subject is that you are happy with what you have and this is what it counts about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sunnyboy1956: That's why I love democracy.
I know that is really difficult to understand in deep what I'm talking about because what you are satisfied with what you are hearing: you like it!.
I know too that there are different " taste " in each one of us but in general we like the " same food ", IMHO I think that over the time it would be a good thing to almost every one of us take in count not only the synergy on our ears but the electrical/specs ( at least ) synergy between audio items in an audio system, I can say with out doubt that in that way we can grow-up fast and more important we can achieve better quality performance of what we have.
This whole synergy subject maybe is the main target in our self audio learning curve. Of course ( I understand ) that when we take in count the " electrical-specs " synergy in our buy decisions the alternatives goes down-not so wide but IMHO the rewards could and can be worth the effort.
I'm not only looking for " perfection " per se NO I'm trying to looking in an intelligent way and of course looking the quality performance that put my " toes tapping ".
I have a lot of experiences ( like any one of you ) in the quest to be truer to the recording and between those experiences every time that made/make a change to lower distortions in a link in my audio system chain ALWAYS ( till today ) the system performance improve, not that sound only different NO the quality performance go 1-2-3 steps foreward.
Un-matched impedances between audio items ( phono stage-line stage, speaker-amplifiers, etc,, ), high RIAA deviations, asymetry ( frequency deviations ) between channels in any electronic audio item, cartridge/tonearm, etc, etc, makes/build distortions and we hear it so trying to lower those different kinds of distortions is one of my main target because as I say it: the rewards are worth the effort.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: I'm not against any of you or Nagra, what I'm trying to share with all of you is to find " roads " that permit to improve the whole quality on the high end audio industry and IMHO I think that the audio customers ( along audio magazines/reviewers. ) are the ones that can contribute the more to achieve that target.
Why ( example , nothing against it. ) Nagra makes the VPS design in that way: because its design know-how is a low one? because they really don't care about ? because they only want to make money? because....? because.... ? IMHO Nagra and many other manufacturers try to build/design at its best but they know something: that the high end audio community ( Customers ) is really whom does not care about, they know that it does not matters if its RIAA deviation is high or its output amplifier impedance is high: the customer does not question about so they don't have to be better: NO ONE ASK FOR IT!!!
I'm totally sure ( no doubt about ) that not only Nagra can do better but almost all the today manufacturers.
Please, for a moment try to imagine an " scene/stage " where we all customers before to buy an amplifier ask for a low output impedance or before to buy a phono stage ask for no step-up transformers or very low RIAA deviation, or whatever.
In this kind of " stage " several products ( lot of them ) like the ones that are on offer today ( VPS as example ) no one can/want buy them at any price so in these stage conditions/enviroment the manufacturers have to design according making better ( a lot better ) audio items in benefit/benefice of each one customer and on the whole audio industry.
What can we do about?, three very simple things:
ASK FOR IT, ASK FOR IT and ASK FOR IT!!!!!!!
We have to try to help to our self because no one will do it if you don't do it, remember that the " market " and the needs of that market is made/make/doing mainly by the CUSTOMERS ( you and me ) not the builders.
Friends we have to be better!!!!!, we deserve better and the best: we have to ask for it, we have the right to ask for it: we are the ones that pay for it!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I forgot: Audio dealers too have a main " voice " on the whole subject.
raul. |
Dear hevac1: I never say its sounds bad. Just for a moment imagine your VPS quality performance with an improved design that preclude all those " deviations ": WOW!!!!!
Btw, your peaked caps ( room treatment ) are your audio system " secret-weapon " for top quality performance?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Thomasheisig: Your post really take out a big and great laugh from me, that " smile " make my day: thank you, and no that was not my attitude about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
