My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
I just finished shooting the full VAC setup. I am working on doing the Soulution/Gryphon as we speak.
One thing i want to add, i will NOT be disclosing what system is playing because i am under the belief that people who like tubes will choose tubes no matter what. If i block the view of the electronics and let the music play then we will know who likes what based on the sound. I plan to do 3 separate videos which will play one song each and then create a poll for each video in order to see what people are selecting each step of the way. Once those 5 videos have aired, i will disclose what each presentation was and see what people chose.
Lastly, DO NOT EXPECT for presentation # 1 on each video to be the same gear on all 3 videos.. I WILL NOT do that this time around in order to keep everyone guessing. To me, this will be THE BEST in order to test your REAL PREFERENCES without knowing what is playing.
Presentation 1 could be VAC on the first video but then Presentation 1 could be Gryphon/Soulution on the second video.
Contenders:
Gryphon Mephisto Solos ($120k)
Soulution 725 ($60k)
versus
VAC 450iq monos ($120k)
VAC Master Preamp ($28k)
I will be using a full loom of Shunyata cables since they dont need calibration.
Headphones or your quality streaming gear is what i expect for each one of you to use. I would rather you not use your laptop built-in speakers or your mobile device’s speaker. This would be to me, a disqualification from your opinion.
If i am taking the time to burn my lower legs with the heatsinks of the Mephistos at full-bias while changing cables, i know you all can do your part too.
Prior to the XLF, the previous Focal Stella Evo was my favorite of your speakers. The Maestro looks like a winner now. For the XLF, its brightness could have been mostly due to the crossover design--its tweeter was used down to 1000 Hz, pretty low. The beryllium tweeter may have more sparkle than the XLF tweeter, other factors being equal, but we'll see if the crossover implementation of this Focal yields brighter sound than the XLF.
Boys and girls...I’ve accidentally created a match in here that takes my mind out of the room completely. It makes me begin to think about random stuff that is completely fueled by the music playing....
I need to make a video about my top 3 systems EVER..
Ever wonder what these are? Hmmm 🤔...I think you guys can guess one but the other 2 might escape you...
One last thing, today's video is the best performing video EVER. No other video I've released has performed like today's video. It appears the general public has a thing for me changing speakers... Data analytics never lie...
Please consider adding the VAC pre leading the Mephisto amps combination . Some of us use tube preamps as a pleasant addition/change in our SS systems.
My guess would be the Soulution+Mephisto, because prior to that post, he mentioned that he had finished with VAC setup and was now working with the Soulution/Gryphon setup.
Don't think so. Looks like a post was removed. Without an explanation, we can only make a guess as to why. Sometimes people feel the need to personally attack someone or crap on a thread (e.g. if a thread is about listening impressions about a particular component they feel the need to inject something else without having actually heard the component). Jay does enough work. He can take a few days off to take care of non-audio things.
I actually drove 8 hours yesterday to pick up my next chapter:
The ULTRA HIGH END AMPLIFIER (New Amplifier Tier Group)
You should know by now that I only have 3 amp tier groups:
Low
Mid
High
This amp won't make an appearance until late February, early March. I'm only giving you all some initial information (I probably shouldn't have said anything).
|. You should know by now that I only have 3 amp tier groups:
Low
Mid
High
Is there an easy to access list of your "class A", "class A limited range", and "class B" amplifiers, or does one have to go through ALL of the videos?
I plan to roll out a paid - members only - YouTube section which will contain behind the scenes, videos not aired, personal amp ranking, access to all future video content as well as all the new stuff that is coming up on my channel that nobody knows about.
This is something that many of my viewers have encouraged me to do since they are always wanting to know what I have coming up and don’t want to wait. Right now, I have 4 reviews finished which haven’t been released but members would have access to them. More people are wanting more content and a more intimate closer look inside the room.
It is 110am and the focal maestros are simply taking me away...
I’m beyond impressed here. I need time to gather my thoughts but the Mephisto, transparent and focal is really a devastating combination. I managed to put together this combination based on gut instinct and it PAID OFF!
I’m in no way shape or form looking in the rear view mirror anymore. This has been an outstanding choice on all counts.
As a matter of fact, I was lining up another big top dog speaker and now I'm simply going to cancel that idea.
In my price/performance estimation, Wireworld offers the best analog (including speaker); Kimber/Wireworld (tie) the best digital; and Shunyata the best power. A sleeper for powered subwoofers is Cullen Cable.
On first pass of listening, I liked aspects of both presentations, but my initial thought was that the first presentation had a little bit extra on the top end, whereas the second presentation was more balanced and natural. For this first pass, I would pick #2. I will need to listen a second time on my home system later tonight.
I have my guess as to which was tubes and which was SS, but I’m going to keep that a secret, as well as the reasons for my preferred presentation. But I definitely preferred presentation #2.
Yes, a surprise. Both #1 and #2 are pleasant and very close to each other. I have never heard tubes competing seriously with SS, regardless of which I prefer. I do hear #1 as being fuller in the lower range of her voice. The high notes on the piano sound similar for #1 and #2. I understand how thezaks finds the HF relatively prominent on #1, but I would restate what he hears as the lower freq sounding more tubby. (That's a pun on the fact that I believe that #1 is VAC tubes). #2 is more coherent throughout the range, so I agree with thezaks that it is more natural and balanced than #1. The entire range of her voice is more focused on #2, so I vote for #2.
The fact that I still like #1 indicates that the rest of the system is superb in clarity. My only reservation with the XLF was that the bass was overblown for my tastes, and I find the bass of this Focal speaker more naturally balanced and coherent with the rest of the range. Great quality all the way, more refined and classy than the XLF.
Please don't reveal yet.I have yet to hear it on my big system at home. I will in the morning Wednesday morning. 26th. The question is ...can someone tell me which output tubes are used on the VAC amps I know there is like 12 of them or 24.... whatever. Are they 6550s or the kt88s kt120s..... what are they. ..please?
Speaker cables on floor? Did you change all the fuses in the VAC and
Gryphon to serious fuses? Do you have a separate ground rod outside for your stereo......and ground filtering for each component? Are you off the grid using big battery pure sign wave inverters? Are you using the Puritan line filter?
If not, you are not getting anywhere near the transparency and goosebumps that is possible. You could do all the above and use a less than $10K amp (for instance, the AGD Audion, a modded LSA amp or modded Purifi amp...all $7500 or less) running directly from the DAC and you would get better sound. What is the point of having a supercharged Hemi and putting 85 octane gas in it and putting street tires on it? Do you want great sound, or just want to fool around?
It does not matter, it is your life. And you are beautiful and worthy and deserving of whatever you want. You pick the reality you want. Just letting you know there is more.....always more. If this is your idea of entertainment.....that is great. Love and joy is the greatest entertainment to me. You can choose Love whenever you want.....every second if you like. When you love yourself and everyone and everything and every circumstance.....you have all the love in the universe......we are that incredible. Much love and peace.
In these evaluations, I mainly state what I hear. Jay loves bass power, so the surprise may be that the Soulution + Mephisto has the fuller bass and lower midrange that I attributed to tubes. And the VAC may be much less tubey than expected, as found by Mike Fremer with his similar VAC amp.
Well , unfortunately my db meters says that #2 is a couple of db quieter than #1
#1 sounds more "Real" to me, even though it is a bit thinner also.
Dynamics is outstanding on #1. I prefer #1 because it sounds more "Real"
I say #1 is the VAC
. We really need a better song That Japanese English ..not too good.
It all sounds very up tilted in the upper mids to me I am not sure if it is the song or what. It is as if someone eQed it down in the bass and up in the upper mids to highs.
Valid points, grey9hound. #1 is recorded a little louder than #2. This could explain the extra fullness in lower midrange and bass I hear in #1. I would have to adjust the volume on my keyboard, which is crude, and repeat my evaluation. I hope Jay matches the volumes for the remaining videos so that more meaningful evaluations can be done.
I also believe that Presentation 1 is tubes and Presentation 2 is solid state. Yes, agree with greyhound that everything does sound more polite and less muscular & dynamic than with the Wilson but that isn’t surprising at all - exactly same result as when he had the previous Focal and Wilson in room at same time a year plus ago.
Agree with Viber that bass is a bit tubby with Presentation 1 and tighter with 2. Didn’t necessarily hear major treble differences between the two presentations - difference for me was the bass.
Glad I didn't post last night because after listening again this morning I completely erased what I wrote yesterday!
Firstly, ditto @grey9hound. Secondly, I would add that presentation 1 sounds more "artistic" while presentation 2 sounds more "clinical/surgical/precise". Both are great and I probably could live happily with either.
Presentation 1 sounds much closer to the original source material played on my system which is Classe Audio. I suspect that my system is a darker, warmer, more "tubey" presentation than neutral, so even though 1 sounds closer to my solid state system, my guess is 1 is VAC and 2 is Soulution/Gryphon. Ironically, I suspect that I would really, really love the preamp on 1 playing through the amp on 2. I have always loved Audio Research paired up with a super solid state amplifier and I feel like that is what the preamp 1 w. amp 2 would be...
Regarding bass and impact. Both recordings are significantly lacking in these areas compared to source material on my system. I have not found this to be indicative of high end Focal speakers I have heard in the past nor do I suspect it is reflective of the front end capabilities. I wonder if the Focal's are not quite done breaking in yet or if this is just a limitation of Jay's recording capabilities/YouTube... Again, this diminishment is in both presentations so in no way do I think it is reflective of pre-amp/amp capabilities.
And in the clear category of "cover my ass"... I could easily see a world where solid state is 1 and tube is 2, but it would mean that one or the other... or both! are seriously violating stereotypes! At this point, I would trade everything I own for either... except perhaps the speakers... My gut is that they are not finished completely done breaking in yet....
The plot thickens. I boosted the volume on #2 by 1 notch on my computer keyboard. But the overall volume was now greater on #2 than #1, so Jay did a reasonable job of matching volumes, although someone doing this evaluation on their stereo with a fine volume control could do a more objective evaluation than I. So with the volume boosted by 1 notch for #2, I prefer #1 as having more precise and delicate sound, correlating with #1 having lower volume. But as Jay originally recorded it with volume levels unchanged, I still prefer #2. I agree with the findings and speculations of kren0006 and psnyder149.
It is not so simple to precisely match volume levels. Different components have different tonal balances. What weightings does the ear assign to different freq, and same goes for dB readings for cheap phone apps? Then there is human ear sensitivity vs freq, such as the Fletcher Munson curve. 100 dB in bass isn't loud, but 100 dB in upper midrange is very loud.
My summary is that #! and #2 are close, and VAC did better than I previously believed.
My plot has also thickened.... ! I just made a discovery after discussing my results with another reader of the thread and some odd "artifacts" on both presentations that I just couldn't understand...!
I was using my Apple TV to play the YouTube videos into my Classe Sigma SSP. I didn't think to consider that about the only thing I use the Apple TV for on this system is for watching Netflix so I had the internals set for 7.1 speaker system with Dolby Digital Matrix that converts a 5.1 signal into a 7.1... All well and good,... except that it also converts a 2 channel YouTube signal into a matrixed 7.1! Not good when you're listening to stereo music!
This changed many aspects of the sound. I still prefer presentation 1 to 2 but I fear that my evaluation needs to be completely redone and unfortunately I have listened to this all around 10 times so I need to "unlearn" everything, cleanse my ears from the nasty conversion and start from scratch... I will say, it is bizarre how the sound changed from conversion to straight stereo... More to follow!
Due to all the variables in our means of evaluating YT videos, we accept that Jay in his room has more ability to discern subtle differences. What we have here is better than nothing, and offers more opportunities to compare impressions. It doesn't matter to me if someone has a different preference than I, but I value the fact that he hears the same things I do, such as A has more focus, precision, etc. than B.
We'll see if the next videos with closer volume matching enable us to better discern the differences. Possibly more surprises to come!
Look at Daniel Kurganov, violinist, on YT. His channel has 37K subscribers after many years. He is a modest guy who demonstrates his teachings in 30 min lessons, and posts old recordings of the great masters. His audience is limited to people like me and music students who find his tips valuable. Special content is available by supporting him on Patreon, much cheaper than lessons from prestigious teachers at $500/hour. Covid has destroyed the careers of many musicians, but those with great YT channels do well.
Not sure if it’s been mentioned before in the previous thousands of posts, but it is impossible to identify any component in a true double blind test scenario.
I’m sure that’s been noted previously.
So I’m curious- why are you doing this exhausting “test”?
Please direct me to the post if you have already answered this question- thanks!
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