2. amps-preamps
  3. 126624-10101

My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


jays_audio_lab

Showing 50 responses by mrdecibel

mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
Pokey...Absolutely. I cannot believe I left out the name of the band in my post. In '83, I was invited to visit DMP in Connecticut with some other industry folks, to see the facilities, and we were each given a copy. Great to this day. I have the entire DMP library on CD, but Tricycle is very special to me, as it probably is to you. Play it. I hope WC gets his hands on a lossless download. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
To you, wc, and all of your readers > I sure hope I am not becoming the new V man here. I am being serious. If I am, let me know, as I will cool down.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
Tin Pan Alley also appears on " Couldn’t Stand The Weather ", which was released 1 year later after Texas Flood.  The Texas Flood version was recorded live. The version I am referring too is the Studio version, recorded and done in 1 take, but with much higher resolution, that made this one, heralded as the " one to play ", showing off systems and such.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
So now, WC can compare the streaming version and the cd version of SRV's TPA, and give us his thoughts on that comparison. greyhound...very familiar with each song in your line up, and I have to agree, all spectacular. Yuri Honing Trio is awesome !
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
You don't say. Did not know that, lol. Enjoy !
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC, Tin Pan Alley was recorded and released in 1983 / 1984, as I indicated. Here is another I believe you will find fun, and will be a system tester, for sure. It was 1983, and a recording engineer named Tom Jung, started a new label ( Digital Music Products, better known as DMP ), all digital, and a direct to digital format ( no overdubbing, 1 take ) and a musical 1st of it's kind for the new format, the CD. The name is " Tricycle ". I am sure you can download it, as it is available on YouTube. Enjoy ! Always, MrD. I have a question, WC.....Were you around in 1983 ? lol .....My son was born that year.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
BTW, I purchased all the others...…..although, if I put my hand out, I could have gotten them on the arm, I am sure. But that wasn't me.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC, Not a high end or audiophile recording ( not horrible by any means ), but if you want to really " get into " your system, have some tissues with you. Studio version of " Europa ", by Santana, appeared originally on his Amigo album. Lots of internet talk about who, and why, he wrote this piece. There are live versions as well, and, done by many other artists, such as Gato Barbieri. But, imo, showcases Carlos as a wonderful, soulful, guitar player. Just beautiful, and yes, I have cried listening to this song, on more than 1 occasion. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC, I am guessing, as wonderful as your system is sounding now, you want a little more " color ", that admittedly, you stated the ARC preamp gave you. Tube amplification, which ever they are, will do it. 
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
I can only guess with Tin Pan Alley playing....
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
 Viber, you do realize that WC had to sell some things off to get his new gear ( AR preamp and Block monos ). WC is having fun, and this past week we all enjoyed ourselves, and enjoyed wc's journey. Glad to have you back, but I will be watching you, my friend, lol. I have never been on a cruise, and I know they can be wonderful, as I know many who have experienced them. I suppose I like my feet on the ground ( although, I do fly ). Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
klh, viber misses a lot of things, because, well, we all know. I will say, he was missed, and not. Like a gf, can't live with them, can't live without them. BTW, Guido has told me the 925's are still the better amps, but the bridged 535s are close. I am also suspecting that wc will no longer like tube gear ( I agree with viber here ), as wc is appreciating less " color " and greater detail and clarity. But, we will see, as WC has some tube amplification on the way, and, wc can still be full of surprises. Always a fun read, this journey of his.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC, I apologize to you. I will minimize my posting here. I also, in defense of viber, do not believe he is being contentious, at least, for the purpose of.  WC, My best to you, always, Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
viber, " I do not want to appear pretentious ". Really ? No comment. Concert halls are boring ? Really ? Again, no comment. 
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
viber, my only quirk with you is this. ( 1 ) Your experiences with your many live, on stage moments are an unrealistic portrayal of hifi systems, but you go on and on about them, suggesting this is the only way to listen ( 2 ) Your repetitiveness of everything you say is like a rash of poison ivy that will not diminish in pain and annoyance ( 3 ) You are now knocking concert halls as being boring. As opposed to what ? Madison Square Garden playing with all of the speakers and amplifiers set up around the place ? Outdoor performances ? Duh. In this scenario, you are eliminating the room acoustics, which is a reality we all strive for. My outdoor pool speakers do sound very open, and present to me much enjoyment. But, there is so much more intensity and involvement of music reproduction in my main sound room ( 4 ) This next point, well, you still do not get. You, because of your on stage experience, places you in a position to be a " different " kind of listener as most of the other posters here, and most in general, who have never performed on a stage. Yes, the closer you are to any sound producing article, such as a musicians instrument when being played, a voice when singing, even a lawnmower when mowing, will be more realistic, authentic, and will sound more up front, with more detail and clarity, without room acoustics to interfere with this " direct " sound. Recordings, ime, are not designed to place me " smack in the middle " of the performance, but, in the 1st few rows of being in the audience of a performance. And although I was a singer, I do not want to be " on stage " during my listening. Yes, like you, I want to be up close and personal, but, once music is recorded, it is such a mess, compared to live, unamplified music, that we all  try to " reassemble " it, to give us that musical nirvana. And, yes, once we achieve a level of detail and clarity, every part of musical playback comes into place, such as tone, dynamics, timing, coherence, octave to octave extension and balance, spatial imaging, and all else. So, with this being said, I am glad you have returned, as, we all get what you are saying. How about some things new ? Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC, as far as I am concerned, your journey has been fun and enjoyable, but as far as myself learning, well I am sorry to say, I have not learned anything, other than a simple fact. I have much less money invested in a sound system, and feel the level of my gear, and the way I have set it up, is far superior than the recordings that I play. The microphones, mixing consoles, expanders and compressors, not to mention the musical tastes of the musicians, producers, recording and mixing engineers, and everyone and everything involved in the final product, is reproduced very realistically, and more importantly, extremely enjoyable and engaging, with whatever genre of music I play. Again, I hope you can get to this point. Continue, my son, as I will still follow. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
" Easy on the ears " gets boring after a while, and then clarity takes top priority.  "Concert halls are boring ", so they must lack clarity. It is interesting, how dynamic range is a fundamental characteristic of music reproduction, and is part of the " clarity " thing, but yet, it has been admitted by the Vman, his own system does not do well in that area of clarity. I believe WC gets plenty of dynamic range through his system ( maybe not the ultimate ), but without a doubt, and this is part of his " amplifier " journey, to extract the most of everything through his Neos. And lets keep in mind, we are talking about the loudest, versus the softest, moments of music, rather than ultimate volume levels. WC, as you probably know, I differ than you in how evaluations of equipment is done ( I require longer warm up times, maintain the same power cords, ics and speaker cables, etc. ). But, what I admire about you, during this journey of yours, which is at least tens time shorter than mine, your ears have gotten to be wonderful measurement tools, and you are looking ( listening ) for what YOU like. On top of this, with you're experimentation, you are willing, and understand, that changes could lead to making mistakes ( as monetarily careful as you can be ), to moving backwards, forwards, or sideways, all for the purpose of getting closer to your destination. Because of this, I will always read your thread. But as I said, I will try, very hard, not to post, unless I have anything to add to " your " journey ", and again, I apologize for my intro of this post. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
viber, we are more similar than different, but at this point, and the discussions you and I have, should be elsewhere, as this is the preference for wc. I have taken discussions " off this thread " with Guido, both through email and phone, and I am happy to do the same with you. Or, you can start your own thread on live, unamplified music, or whatever, and I am sure to be there with plenty of commentary. Take care, MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
Guido, as we have discussed on the phone, you, viber and I, listen differently than most, and use mostly live unamplified music as our reference. The simple fact is this. Recorded music, starting with the microphones, loses much of this " genuine " character, anyway, so wc's, and anyone else's interpretation of a " performance ", should never be questioned. WC, and 75 % of high end listeners, that I know, and have known, put tremendous listener emphasis on sound staging, and imaging. And you know what ? That is terrific, especially if this characteristic of music reproduction is enjoyable to them, and gets them closer to " their " truth. If I were able to exchange my main system for a guaranteed live performance, every day, forever, I would. But our systems are exactly that; Ours. I do not bend ears screaming horns for everybody, although, my ownership and enthusiasm for them is heard, quite often. There are many ways to reproduce recorded music, and each of us is entitled to go about it in our own ways. We no longer need to state the live music thing here, as you just have. Especially since wc has asked us not to. As a professional audio consultant for years, it was my job to work with my customers, listen to my customers, and help them build what " they " enjoyed. I was able to separate myself, and what I enjoyed, to what direction they wanted to go. Where am I going with this ? The individuality thing, again, as we are all reaching for our own straws.. I will close by saying this. I will try and follow wc for as long as his journey continues, and will try to stay in line with his wishes. He is enjoying the ride, and THIS, is all that matters. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
And I, too, apologize.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC, go to YouTube and check out " Youthman ". Home theater done right , on a reasonable ( your reasonable ) budget.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
Guido, I appreciate the response, but keep in mind, I never tried to make it an " attack " on you.                                                                  Ihasaguy, no one enjoys " cranking " the A Bs Live at Fillmore East " more than I, but I keep those levels at a minimum time frame, as to protect my ears. What is most satisfying, are those lower listening levels, that still portray the loud vs soft passages, such as in " Amused to Death ", by R Ws.                                                                Viber, you never responded to my email...…….....                                WC, I am assuming you are planning to stay in your home for quite a while. Converting a garage to a Home Theater room, at least in the Florida area that I am, does nothing for the property value. An audio buddy of mine recently built a newer home in the Mt. Dora area of Florida, working with a contractor, on a piece of property my buddy purchased. What a wonderful sound room, as I did give him many tips on the room build. And he maintained a wonderful and useful 2 car garage. I understand property values are higher in your neck of the woods, but someone who has owned,  "at one time ", 200K of audio gear ( doing my math ), should build a newer home, with a dedicated music room. This is how I see it. Anyway, I am glad you are getting yourself a larger, more " dedicated " area, which will satisfy the home theater and 2 channel thing, although, I still, ime, feel, discreet, dedicated, 2 channel music systems are always superior than those that do double duty with home theater. But again, this is me, as music will always be a greater enjoyment than movie watching. So, enjoy, with whatever you do. Always, MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
Guido, Ditto. You are as fine a gentleman as any I know. It is my pleasure, my friend !  Enjoy ! Always, MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
I think viber is on to something with his statement, based on reading, for years, the kinds of distortions that are presented to us through our gear. I am not equipped, nor knowledgeable enough to discuss these distortions, but even here, on the "Gon, and readings from Nelson Pass, Dan D'agastino, Peter Walker, and many others, the human ear does like certain distortions ( 2nd or 3rd harmonics, whatever, I am clueless ), but in a discussion such as this, I believe there is some truth to it. Again, not to take up space on WCs thread, but maybe, someone would like to start a thread elsewhere here on the "Gon, about this topic. The Tech Talk section would be the place, I suppose. And keep in mind, viber is repeating the words of a studio mastering engineer, as I have no doubt of the validity of this statement. Geoff, always a pleasure to listen to your contributions. Let's do this thing, yeah ? Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
viber, I responded to you, via email. Geoff, I started a thread under Tech Talk, title being : Distortions that the human ear likes. Are there any ? Let's see where it goes, as I can always have the thread deleted, if it goes nowhere.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
ron17, I have encountered that exact thing in several room designs I was involved with. The best rooms were those that involved an individual with much more knowledge than myself with room construction and acoustical properties techniques, of course, for the purpose of audio and home theater use. I have always said, the room, the room, the room ( location, location, location, lol ). Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
200 K worth of audio gear with a room that is not sufficiently large enough, and / or acoustically excellent, is like putting 93 octane in a Volkswagen Beetle ( non turbo ) .....I have always lived in a home with at least one excellent sound room, as quality audio reproduction was always an important aspect of my life. WC, looks like the garage thing will be happening.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
Listen guys. I take nothing away from Johnny A, especially with the playing on Jimi Jam, but, if you like this musical style, Eric Johnson is the man. I still like his 1990 " Ah Via Musicom ". Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
pokey....+1 on Eric Johnson....To each his / her own, just like audio gear, hey...….
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
I agree about the music here, but honestly, good electric guitar sounds great on good hifi gear, and you, wc, did ask not long ago, for recommendations on good music to listen to, and judge with. I still think, wc, that you are not in that " state ", of just " sitting ", and " relaxing ", to good music, without thinking what is next to try, to improve things. A very unsettling time for an audiophile / music listener. I might be over stepping my bounds here, but my honesty is part of me. But, I will take my music talk to the music thread, and, I apologize. Remember, Audiogon is all about " music reproduction ". Always, and Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
Funny that you mention the XA 25. I am looking to getting one soon, although I am quite happy with my ADA PF 2501, with my modifications.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC..Thump and muscularity...….What is this " thump " thing ? My interpretation of " thump " reminds me, of every time a car passes me on the road and the driver has his car system so loud I hear the thump from the trunk. Coloration for sure. Ballsy is a better word.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
riaa, it seems that jetter and viber think you are a child, that you cannot make up your own mind, that you need guidance, that you are new to this audio stuff, and, that you don't have other amplifiers in your arsenal. What gives ? Off that topic. As I am passive ( aggressive, lol ), I would need the additional gain of the XA 25 vs. the SIT 3, as I do not want to go back to using a preamplifier. But, as I listen to my system, it really leaves nothing to want, and it would really be out of curiosity, as I have owned so many Class A amplifiers, and still have a few. WC, I am glad you will be getting your garage set up, and hope you achieve the 2 channel sound we all know you love, as well as your multichannel rig. As I have mentioned prior, and I do not want to be negative here, it has been my experience that the best 2 channel rigs, including my own, have been dedicated 2 channel rigs, and once you mix multiple speakers in the same room, along with the front screen ( whatever screen it is ), messes up ( again, for me ) the 2 channel, music only, experience. But on a positive note. Having a dedicated room, that is yours, to do with what you like, and without disturbing anyone else, is a WONDERFUL thing, and I wish you luck and happiness. One thing will be for sure. Movies, concerts, and music videos will likely be outstanding ! Always, WC, my best. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC, a few comments, if I may. You stated you made one of the 2 Classe amps shut down, based on driving them real hard, but said in the same sentence, they had no problem driving the Neoliths. You have a tendency to drive all of your amplifiers real hard ( you like it pumpin ), but in my experience, a ss amp would clip a little before it shuts down. Did you not hear clipping distortion ? So, I am questioning this. Also, you mention a few other things. The front end ( all of the gear before the amplifier ), is critical and needs to be " first class ", and, " at this level of equipment ", system matching is definitely important. " Any system " will benefit from having better front end gear; and system matching, is the key " at all price levels " of gear. Input gain on amplifiers, between 29 db and 26 db is not much, and I do not think your ears are hearing " that ", especially at the lower listening levels ( I could be wrong ). But the volume level " control " on the preamp will definitely be a bit different in it’s setting. Because you are a loud listener ( and I know loud ), some sort of equalization ( loudness contour ) would be beneficial to you at lower listening levels. I am not trying to be the devils advocate here, but all of this is based on my many years of experience, and this is simply why I have not learned anything here. Maybe it would be best if I no longer post on your thread. I do not know how you would take any of my commentary. But, I do believe telling the truth. P.S. As far as the comments I made about jetter and viber, with riaa’s XA25 situation, they both reminded me of my " nagging " ex wife, so, I spoke up. Enjoy ! Bless you and your journey, and all the best. MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
First Watt amps all have low gain, but not switchable. SRV bibs. Now we are talkin’. I do not know of a larger fan than myself. My wording, " old as dirt ", did not make me feel as old as " older than dirt ". I am aware of how I worded it ( lol ). My mom had dementia, and later, Alzheimer’s, for a 10 year period, before she passed. My dad, who passed a year before my mom, had dementia, but his physical health was what, well, worse. Things I remembered 2 years ago ( such as names of musicians, or actors ), are no longer remembered. I still remember every piece of audio gear I ever had in my possession ( quite a lot ), and pieces that friends of mine had ( much of it was mine prior, which they have forgotten ). Viber, I will likely pm you with a few health questions, if you do not mind. Anyway, on a happier note. I am looking forward to the continuation of wc’s journey, and to his garage transformation. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC, just a side step here. Thank you. Jetter, you are a grown man. The only reason you reacted the way you did, is because you knew you were nagging. How many times must you repeat yourself " I cannot believe, nor understand, why you won't hook it up ". Viber was very repetitive here for a long time, and until the XA 25 thing, he has changed his postings, which many of us appreciate. So yeah, I witnessed nagging. So, can we now go back to being adults, and comrades, with this sick and somewhat torturous hobby of ours, and all be on the same team. I apologize to both you and viber. RIAA, I am getting plenty of mail and phone calls about supplemental health care, as I turn 65 next month. I do not need you to remind me of it !....  " old as dirt ". THIS IS A LOL MOMENT ". All good. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
I believe viber was interested in the Merrill amps. As far as feet, I agree, but always believed, based on improved sq, to use tube dampers as well ( on tubes, lol ). We have the dampers, for tubes; we have the meats, for sandwiches. Ya kno...
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
dracule1, my problem with faxer, initially, was he was not forthright in stating himself as being a dealer. A very happy customer was what he portrayed, and I lost every bit of respect for him. His GT Audio Works could be the best there is, but at this point, I would never give Steve ( faxer ) my business. WC thought Steve was great at AXPONA, but that is besides the point. There are many manufacturers, and other dealers here, who are open and forthright, so I find it ok. Just need to ignore certain folks. " Pugsley in New Jersey ". Yeah, I ignore much of what they say. Viber, as you may know, I am, besides a Klipsch Heritage junkie, I am also an amplifier junkie. I have a few Yamaha pro amplifiers that I rotate ( play in my systems, lol ), that have front panel indicator lights to let you know when 1 / 2 watt is being outputted into the speakers. With my Lascalas, most of the time they do not come on at all. Of course, with a simple increase on my Luminous, they come on, but never continuous, no matter how loud I play. I own, from new, an HK Citation 12 that was converted for me by an old friend of mine, into a 1 wpc class A amp, to drive a pair of Stax phones I once had. It was replicated by a Nelson Pass article in some electronics builders magazine, many moons ago. This amp drives my Lascalas very well, with some music, at some nice volume levels. But, I can easily make it clip, and it is quite sad, because it is a BEAUTIFUL sounding amplifier. Enough of me, as I do not want to anger WC. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC, as one spends more money on equipment, it should be expected to hear more of " everything ", good, or bad. Starting with : musical information on the recordings; individual qualities of the ancillary equipment; cables, tubes, isolation and resonance control devices; room acoustics ( walls, floors, ceiling, doors and windows, vents ) and equipment set up; electrical characteristics from the grid, once it enters the home ( a dedicated, isolated, and high voltage box, superior wiring and outlets ); other electrical devices throughout the home, such as ac adaptors for phones and laptops, modems, microwaves, light dimmers and bulbs, other appliances, pool pumps; etc. Building a room, as you are doing, should have all of this figured out in the design, and it will not be cheap. Do it right, so you will get the most benefit from your " system " investment. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
viber, you mention you purchased and owned a used Mark Levinson ML 2. I am wondering why you referred to the amp as " it ", a single unit, when the model ML 2 was a mono block, requiring two, for stereo. I knew the ML 2 very well. You might be mistaking about the exact model. I suspect you had the ML 3, as I was familiar with that model as well. I loved the early Levinson amplifiers. ML 2s were just awesome !
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC, as psnyder pointed out, there are ac / heating units available, that are called " packaged " and or " all in one " systems, that combine the compressor, condenser coil, and blower fans all in one unit ( pretty much what is used in mobile, and many manufactured homes ). Generally, they are used, to allow more space within the home. You would be looking at a packaged heat pump system, which combines, heating, air conditioning, and air handling, all in one unit, unlike a split system, which most homes, such as yours, use ( yes, I know, I am being repetitive with the all in one ). I would research it as a way to go. They are big, and noisy ( at the unit ), but the location of the unit, outside, can be determined, to provide the quietest operation when you are in your listening seats. The other thing I would like to mention. I understand you want excellent multi channel as well, and as you might or might not know, the center channel, during movies specifically, takes dominance, so, in the best designed home theater rooms, the 3 front speakers are generally the same ( or close to ), as well as the amplification. I just wanted to mention this. I would seek out a company ( a / v installer ) who specializes in designing rooms such as this. They are out there. Till next time. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
WC, we all expected that outcome, even if the ARs have some good qualities. Not the best match for the Neos. My Lascalas would love them. Eziggy...A friend of mine just got a great deal on a used, mint 452, and he just loves Mac. They are well made and look beautiful, but I have always enjoyed Mac's OTL amplifiers more, but still, other brands over Mac, in sq. 
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
This was mentioned before by another poster and I agree. I believe the biggest problem with a 2 channel audio / home theater combination, is when you are listening to the 2 channel music system, the other multi channel speakers are also playing ( excited, was the term used ). And, it becomes worse when you crank the 2 channels louder. It is unfortunately very audible, and ime, masks much of the " details " that one spends on higher end gear. Admittedly, the customers I have worked with, typically had the monies to have 2 dedicated areas, 1 each for 2 channel and home theater. A good buddy of mine, who still designs systems for the wealthy in the NY, NJ and CT areas, says that the people today he works with, all want it all together, as WC is doing, but the greater emphasis is now on automation, and remote capabilities throughout the home. 1 button operation, easy peasy. He is seeing less and less of the 2 channel diehards, but yet, people are still spending big bucks on all of the gear. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
ricred1, I am talking about the " acoustic pressure " in the room that the other speakers are reacting to ( they are being " excited " ). When you are playing your 2 channel system, very lightly, place the tip of your finger on one of the low frequency drivers of a surround speaker, or your center speaker, as you will feel it vibrate. This is acoustics, my friend, as I know the speakers are not being driven by an amp at this time. Duh.....Sorry to respond this way, but I suppose you did not understand the term " excite ".
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
ricred, my Duh comment was to let you know, I know the speakers were not being driven by amplification during discreet 2 channel listening. If your center and surround speakers are not " acoustically " getting excited, when listening to 2 channel music, 1 of 2 things are happening. ( 1 ), you are playing your 2 channel system at a very low level, or ( 2 ), you are in denial. A test for you would be, to take your center speaker, face it upwards, sprinkle a very small amount of salt on a low frequency driver, and, at your normal 2 channel listening level, see if the salt starts bouncing around on the driver. If it doesn’t, your volume level is very low, and yes, it is quite possible, the other speakers are not exhibiting excitement. But if the salt dances, well, you know. But in the case of WC, and his preferred volume levels, I would have no doubt that the center and surrounds would be excited, by the spl in the room. I will not continue to argue this point, and I was not trying to insult you. But, we both seem to be know it alls, and are batting heads, which is quite common here. YMMV....Enjoy ! MrD
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
I thought I read that WC was going to have another set of front speakers, for the HT part, flanking the Neos ? WC will need to have the patience, to cover all of these extra speakers when listening to 2 channel music, as you are doing with your center, ricred1. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
ricred, all good my friend. This is my main concern with WC. At the level of equipment he is spending money on, as bigd just indicated, this excite phenomenon can detract a bit of details, which are the reasons to spend this much money to begin with. This is all I am saying. And as someone who likes to turn it up much of the time ( me ), I need 2 separate systems. My main, primary interest, is always 2 channel music. I was part of a very high end HT / 2 channel system design, and saw, executed in a large private home in Connecticut ( it was a famous person who was not there at the time ), some amazing things. All Pro JBL. Stacked towers, monster subs, 2 large monitors as a center channel, on a motorized shelf, lowering automatically into a special enclosure, and the sides and rears were on mechanical platforms, that would turn 180 degrees, and become enclosed and flush with the walls, all with a push of a button or 2. This theater was huge. Seating for a dozen or more people. All Krell electronics. A motorized screen, and very elaborate curtains, chairs, furnishings, etc. I was there for the 2 channel part. And, there was another, dedicated 2 channel listening room I was part of, a year earlier. Oh, another room on this level, had a Grand piano, with a stage. And downstairs, a very elaborate recording studio, a 4 lane bowling alley, a Disco, and an in ground pool. No expense was overlooked. It was quite an estate. To see up close, how the rich and famous lived, and, to be a little, tiny, part of it’s entertainment design. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
maplegrove, glad you are enjoying it ! Always, MrD.
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
Wc, and I have to say this. So sorry, in advance. You are trying out 9K worth of 2 power cords, but you would not consider building a new home, so everyone can be happy. I do not get it buddy. 
mrdecibel
3,104 posts
 
tjassoc, not believing in the passive radiator thing, eh. Try what I described with your center channel, and a bit of salt. If the salt bounces, it is being demonstrated.
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