2. amps-preamps
  3. 126624-10101

My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


jays_audio_lab

Showing 50 responses by inna

inna
7,871 posts
 
Continuum turntable ? Ypsilon phono stage ?
inna
7,871 posts
 
Well, frankly both pepsi and coca-cola suck big time. Give us a beer or water.
inna
7,871 posts
 
"Feminine" wasn't meant to be negative. I like feminine, you know.
Jay, could you play us some jazzrock or Pink Floyd, something different not just ballads ?
inna
7,871 posts
 
The recording quality of Boulder/Wilson and Soulution/Magico videos is not the same, the latter is much better.
If you noticed, I posted a video by someone playing top of the line Boulder combo with $200k Wilsons. That was the very best, I think.
In any case, Boulder-Gryphon-D'Agostino/Wilson for some and whatever/Magico for others.
I expect Gryphon Diablo 300 to be worse overall with Magico than Soulution 530, though perhaps more dynamic. I would try Boulder/Magico and Mephisto/Magico. Pass or even D'Agostino wouldn't make sense to me, they wouldn't match Magico's transparency.




inna
7,871 posts
 
Soulution is much better.
And I clearly prefer Wilson to Magico. As someone said, not me, Magico sound feminine. So if that's what you want from speakers then you can have it. Another example of exellent 'feminine' speakers is Lansche.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Right. Too bad.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Yeah, I am spoiled and quite happy about it. Though I will never be able to afford $100k+ components but I always want to hear how top of the line or next level down models sound. I might be able to afford some used Wilson speakers and some used Gryphon/Soulution/D'Agostino/Boulder/Accuphase electronics at some point in time. I also now know even better than before that certain brands I am just not interested in.
Yes, comparing, say, 10 presumably best integrated would make sense but it would be complicated because of potential match with speakers, you would need more than one pair of excellent speakers and probably not as big as Wilson Alexx and Magico M6. They are not really supposed to be driven by any integrated.
inna
7,871 posts
 
If many of the potential buyers are like me, Gryphon does not engage, it kind of plays itself, the entire system becomes one big Gryphon. Some will like it and will get Gryphon, others will not. Boulder is completely different, in my impression. At this price level people expect near perfection, and rightly so.
inna
7,871 posts
 
I suggest we continue in a respectful manner. Nothing is wrong with anybody.
inna
7,871 posts
 
We need to find a way to get big Boulders back in there, along with the Boulder preamp. Unless there is something SS even better those are top level, and I refuse to settle for anything less.

It means that usually those who can easily afford $100k speakers can also easily afford $170k speakers. We are talking about half a million dollars systems.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Since Jay completely spoiled me with his electronics, I can no longer accept anything but the top level. Which in my reality means that if thinking new equipment I will have to stick to integrated amps. The least expensive is I think Gryphon Diablo 120 and maybe some Accuphase. But with Accuphase I would only go with class A. No idea about Boulder integrated. I will take used Accuphase over new Luxman integrated any day.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Tight bass..that's what Mike said. Well, as Ralph of Atma-Sphere said once or twice - there is no such thing in reality as tight bass. Quite right. So if sealed speakers give you that then they are always wrong.
Soulution is an excellent match for the Magico, no doubt, they just need bigger Soulution amps.

inna
7,871 posts
 
I heard a few interviews with Flemming Rasmussen and liked him enough. He likes large scale music, and for that I think his amps and big speakers should be great. Boulder might still do better but I don't know that.
I think, it makes sense to keep posting here, Audiogon is widely read. Some people sometimes say unpleasant things in a not very polite manner, true, so what ?
I didn't exactly enjoy the appearance of a dealer either, though, but what he says won't influence my impressions. And one of them is that Pass sucks, including with M6. Another is that there is nothing "glassy" about the Soulution 530. There is something in that direction because the speakers and maybe the amp too are not fully burnt in yet. And yet another is, I'll repeat, there is not enough bass there. I would appreciate more weight to the music as well, but that's my preference, Wilson direction.
inna
7,871 posts
 
If it was Jay’s joke it was a cruel one. Those Wilson with top D’Agostino amps should be capable of quite a sound. Comparison with big Boulders would be great too.

I did not hear Accuphase or Luxman or Gryphon in my system. Luxman sound just doesn’t impress me with anything, nothing wrong with it really, strictly speaking. Accuphase has more depth, sophistication and character, it sounds authentic. Jay did not dislike Accuphase with Wilson, he though that at $22k E-800 integrated was very overpriced in the US. That may be but $16k Gryphon Diablo 300 is very different and not everyone will prefer it to the Accuphase. $16k or $22k for a great integrated that may last a lifetime, is it much of a difference ? It depends.

inna
7,871 posts
 
Well, Jay is in business, so is Mike. Either Mike is pushing Pass brand or he has a very strange hearing, or both. Soulution 530 integrated has much more class than that Pass, as I hear it. In addition, bigger is not always better, speaking of soundstage. It should be just right, whatever it is. And I do have an impression that both the speakers and perhaps the Soulution are not fully burnt in yet.
VAC would interesting to hear, or/and Wavac. Anyway, besides other possible improvements we need to find a way to get real bass in there, not exaggerated bass but a real one. We don't have it so far, not enough of a foundation in that sound as it is.

inna
7,871 posts
 
Why is it excellent new ?
inna
7,871 posts
 
Returning to Wilson/Magico subject, I played those videos for some of my friends and as expected some preferred Wilson and others Magico. All women preferred Magico though appreciated Wilson too. M6 has very strong points. By the way, most preferred Gryphon to Boulder with Wilson, so I am in minority there.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Then I would suggest top of the line Soulution separates, and then top Boulder to compare. Somehow, I don't believe that either Gryphon or D'Agostino would be perfect match with Magico. I can be wrong, so what ?
inna
7,871 posts
 
$83K dac ?..Not bad. If it is a dac.

Yes, I think most women will prefer Magico for the transparency and soaring quality. This does not necessarily mean that they hear better, they might hear differently and have different preferences. Well, women are not men, why should they hear the same ?
inna
7,871 posts
 
Boulder is more revealing than Gryphon Mephisto, ruthless in fact.
inna
7,871 posts
 
It's hard to compare this recording with Soulution/Magico because tunes are very different. Besides, I like the Iron Hand tune.
I don't think that Magico's sound is artificial or edgy, but nor do I think it is neutral. They keep sounding lightweight though, for my taste. The sound got no power of delivery, not yet at least.

inna
7,871 posts
 
This might not be the case, I don't know, but in my experience when burning in the equipment including cables bass settles last. But I would expect at least 500 hours for speakers to fully burn in.
Youtube quality varies, that's for sure, even in the middle of the night sometimes. But I ran direct and quick comparison between Magico and Wilson and that was around midnight I think. Well, we'll see what happens next, with new source, more hours on speakers and amps and maybe better quality recordings.
I understand, though, why so many people choose Wilson. 
The so-called law of diminishing return while real is also complicated. As an example, Jay's latest Wilson speakers are so much better that what he had before. Double or more the price ? More than worth it. $100k Boulder monoblocks compared to $60k Mephisto stereo ? Worth it for me, no doubt. But yes, you have to jump and spend a lot more for it to be worth it. $55k Soulution integrated compared to $18k Diablo ? I have no idea, they do sound different though.
inna
7,871 posts
 
I am using Burson former top of the line dac and Grado RS-1 headphones for computer lstening, Wywires Silver USB cable and power cord. It is good enough to hear the differences and shortcomings.
Compared to Wilson Magico is so far very lightweight, lacking dynamics and real bass. It has other advantages, that is true.
In the last video midrange was definitely recessed, techno is right.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Gryphon Mephisto is at a different level, by the way. 
inna
7,871 posts
 
I think, our reference standard is high - it is how it sounds in reality. And I think, paradoxically, the better the system the more critical people might become. That is because the expectations are very high compared to much lower set-ups. I remember myself criticizing Mephisto. Mephisto sounds great but I expect more at this level. 
Another point. Most of us and most of your youtube viewers will never be  able to afford such an expensive gear, even used. It is very upsetting and frustrating. I feel more or less okay about it but I am not that involved in audio. Still, this aspect is unpleasant to me. But I follow your thread with interest simply because I like to see and hear what is possible to achieve in sound reproduction. 
By the way, I would probably take Koenigsegg over Italian supercars. They are somewhat ordinary and this one is quite unique. Or McLaren.
inna
7,871 posts
 
I thought that big Wilson speakers were quite good to perform a role of monitor speakers to compare different amps and preamps and cables etc. Michael Fremer keeps them when evaluating everything. This does not necessarily mean that Wilson are his favourite speakers, this means that he thinks that they suit the purpose of his work best. But he apparently likes them enough for pleasure listening as well.
So why bring Magico in to evaluate amps when the differences were clearly audible with Wilson ? Are Magico M6 better monitors than Wilson ? I doubt it, no reason to believe it so far. They are more transparent but Wilson are quite good too in this respect.

inna
7,871 posts
 
I understand. No, I am not that interested, not preparing for price negotiations. Like when you buy a car, you know. 
Jay, I can "present the opinions" in different styles. In any case, you really like Gryphon amps, and Boulder too. Gryphon has been very sought after brand for decades, just not in the US, where they will be going after the departure of Flemming Rasmussen is unknown yet.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Impossible to have it all, right.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Out of curiosity, Jay, what is the dealer's profit margin on the price of Magico M6 ? And also Wilson Alexx V.
Speakers usually give big profits along with cables.
inna
7,871 posts
 
techno, in my view you are right in some of your comments, and I stated it before, but not all of them. And you are not always exactly polite. It is in fact alright with me if that's how you wish to position yourself but evidently others are sensitive enough to reject your approach.
In any case, we are going to hear the Magico with new Gryphon soon. I wonder if I was right when making an assumption that Gryphon/Magico would not be a great match, at least to my ear and taste. Intuitively, I would choose Boulder not Gryphon if moving in this direction. But it could be wrong, we'll see. It's fun anyway.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Since it is going to be Gryphon pre/power for a while it might make sense to have Gryphon dac or cd player in the system too. They probably can't compete with whatever that $83k piece is but synergy should be perfect. It would also introduce sort of a simplicity to system building, just a few brands, including cables.
In the end, if the Magico is still there by that time, I suppose top of the line Boulder preamp/amp will win. Or maybe D'Agostino Relentless ? Or maybe they both, just different sound. If Gryphon Evo does alright Mephisto will as well, probably better overall, but I bet they won't be the best match with these speakers. Are we going to hear top Soulution electronics in the future ? I did think that Soulution/Magico combination was in tune, just needed improvement.
inna
7,871 posts
 
I would say this Gryphon will compete with Pass amps. For big Wilson and Magico that's not nearly enough.
inna
7,871 posts
 
You know, Jay, I don't understand your dislike of Soulution 530. Yes, it is not enough for the M6 but it is a very right direction.
Despite certain shortcomings, to my ear, Soulution 530/ M6 is a better sound than Gryphon/M6. I compared directly a few times - same impression. Gryphon does not have the sophistication of Soulution, and again, Gryphon tries to play itself instead of leading the speakers. Cables have nothing to do with it, it is its nature.
Others may disagree but that's how I hear it. Soulution separates or Boulder separates, that's what should take the sound of M6 to the highest level, I think.
inna
7,871 posts
 
No one buys $175k Soulution 701 mono blocks not because new model is coming, it is because people have no funds to spend $55k just on amps no matter how great they might be. And those who have will buy new. The same situation with much less expensive stuff. No-one buys Diablo 300 and even much rarer 120 either here or on usaudiomart, Lamm monoblocks, Accuphase integrateds etc. Probably even those who can afford stuff are just not in the mood and also wait and see where the economy goes from where we are now. Besides, epidemics is not over, not even close yet.
inna
7,871 posts
 
So, speaking of brands and speaking top or near top level, it is Boulder and D'Agostino for me. Very possibly Soulution as well, don't know yet. Haven't heard top Accuphase either but they probably can't compete with D'Agostino. For large scale music Gryphon Mephisto should be fine, maybe even close to Boulder.
inna
7,871 posts
 
viber6, why don't you stop this endless posting about something no one here is interested in ?
Well, if Soulution 530 is no good to many I will buy it for $5k.
Assuming that we all have good enough hearing and equipment, it is interesting how differently we hear things. I wouldn't even consider Anthileon Evo for any speakers, unlike Mephisto that I might though not likely, only if Boulder was out of reach.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Let's just not hear that 'who is strangling the cat ? ' Norwegian girl.
Iron Hand song and then something different if possible.
Should be fun. I place my bet on dCS. 
inna
7,871 posts
 
Yeah, Jay just stated that he didn’t like the Soulution 530. About Accuphase E-800 he said that in his opinion it was overpriced, he didn’t exactly say he didn’t like it. I like them both.
inna
7,871 posts
 
A thought. $100k-$175k for great speakers or amps sounds much more reasonable to me than $83k for any dac. This price is insane. Well, all of it is insane but that amount just for a dac is beyond it, it is ridiculously insane. This dac might become obsolete in a few years even if it is upgradable. It's almost like drinking $3k a bottle wine or buying $25k suit.
I did try once $1k a bottle wine. Great, but I didn't pay for it, it was a gift.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Yeah well, if you make $83k per day $83k for a dac is just fine. That thing probably costs $5k max to make, including so-called R&D.
As for dealer's profit margin, speaking of Magico M6, they probably pay 50%-60% the retail price. It's good business if you can sell them.
Comparing digital to analog is difficult. The foundation of analog is turntable itself/tape deck not tonearms and cartridges and even phono stages. Put $500 MM cartridge on $25k rig and you will get great sound no digital can touch.
Anyway, waiting for that Californian dac to impress us. I know I won't be impressed because of the Gryphon in the chain, which I consider totally inadequate and euphonic.
But I do think that Magico M6 is a musical speaker. This is not overall my preferred sound but it doesn't change my opinion.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Yes, Jay, I did. I choose words carefully, though it sometimes may not look like that.
Tell Mike to get Kuzma Reference, that one is not good enough. Don't tell him - he knows better than I do.
Kharma with Boulders, yeah, good idea.
inna
7,871 posts
 
pokey77, prove me wrong.
Speakers may have msrp that is ten times the production cost. With overpriced dacs it should be more.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Of course it's "someone else's money", I have other ways to waist money but not on nearly the same grand scale.
Important thing for us is if the top MSB will outperform the dCS and if so to what degree. It's a show.
I didn't expect to dislike the Gryphon Anthileon that much. What's wrong with me ? Or with the Gryphon ? Or with both of us ?

inna
7,871 posts
 
Jay, what you said to techno can be interpreted as a threat. Careful. This is modern America. The best way for you to respond to him is silence.

Techno, there might be a lot of commerce involved here, and we don't get kickbacks for anything. Let's just watch the videos or simply leave this thread. 
inna
7,871 posts
 
Stereo amps is a compromise and in my view not an acceptable one. Very simple.
And I mentioned before that comparing Mephisto stereo and Boulder/D'Agostino monos was a wrong and potentially misleading approach. 
inna
7,871 posts
 
Besides, we are talking about near top of the line speakers. Who in the right mind would consider buying $100k - $175k speakers and stereo power amps ? Temporarily maybe, but you got to get monos eventually.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Yeah, Kharma/Boulder - excellent sound. As for the MSB dac...I am not sure, I have a very initial impression that it does something that I don't like, maybe it tries to be analog source too hard.
inna
7,871 posts
 
Sure, big Boulder stereo should be better than any mono Pass and most others. That's not what I wanted to emphasize. The correct way to build power amps is to go mono blocks. Some brands don't even have stereo amps, only mono.
As for the thought that in the end everything is to a degree a compromise, there is no argument about that. But the spirit is as few compromises as possible, especially at the highest level of equipment costing funny amounts.
It's hard to compare Soulution and Boulder by only watching those videos. They appear to have quite different house sound. Like them both.
inna
7,871 posts
 
I am sorry if it upsets anyone - Magico M6 are incomparably better than those Kharma. And I like Kharma sound.

inna
7,871 posts
 
Jay's room is good enough. They got Boulders there, that's the ticket, I think.
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