@lemonhaze,
I really enjoyed your sharing of the room treatment. Having not had a room for many years when I was raising kids for a good system, I get how important it is to have a good room size and dimension.
To get the proper sound in a good room with sound treatment will send your system to the next level.
I hear some say that some of the rooms that they auditioned systems with their dealers have been less than stellar. And I don't doubt it. But if you think that it's ok for all kinds of reflections coming from all kinds of places is going to give you the best of your room, I would say that you are delusional.
@lemonhaze has spoken, and he is right on the money with sound treatments. I can only say that I have heard many a good system, and it was not full of bare walls or floors. And the sound out of those speakers reached my ears in a way stereo sound was intended (with no reverberation). If you are lucky enough to have a wife that let's you go to town with high end audio, it's in your best interest to start looking at getting those reflections and reverberations out of your room. @lemonhaze, thanks for you insight to others with your prose and knowledge of sound treatment. Sound treatment will change your system for the better. And isn't what this journey it about ( the absolute sound.).
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@techno_dude,
The Lampi uses only SE cables, no XLR.
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Glad to see the massive power of the Titan is being put to good use. The Neolith is made to take the power. Now for the 1st time you have an amp to see what the power brings. Whether a small power amp brings more to the table at lower volumes, or not. Some of us relish the ability to turn it up and hear that roar. Even if is only for a few seconds, that HOLY MOTHER OF GOD experience is an adrenaline rush, not unlike driving a supercar or supercharged muscle car with your foot to the floor. Nice job!! You deserve to unleash the Kraken with these Neoliths. Not to say that this is the end all of amplification, but anyone with a speaker like this should experience 1,000 w/ch or more coming out of it. Why? BECAUSE YOU CAN.
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To give you an idea of the kind of guy I am... I bought the Roush Stage 3 and the Phase 3 upgrade.
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WC,
Enjoyed the synopsis of the amplifier testing. The Titan may have lost the Gold Medal. And the Block Audio Monos sure deserve it being Class A for 200 watts. But it must be cool to have the Titan around for all out blasting sessions at high decibels. Not sure how much you paid for the Titan, but if it was relatively inexpensive, it should be a keeper for the times when supercharged power is what is on the menu.
Even if the Lampizator had enough gain.... there is what you have said about the ARC Ref 10 making a majority of songs sound better. I'm sure purists will say different till they are blue in the face, but there is no substitute for a proper preamplifier. Also having XLRs going into the amplifier does have it's advantages. Usually the noise floor is lower, and the detail is greater with XLR connections. Anyway, it looks like you have one heck of a true SOTA system going on, and I think the Neoliths blow away the MOST speakers at the same price point. Me, being a Martin Logan fanboy my whole adult life, am very pleased that you are taking this journey with my favorite speaker, regardless of price. Thanks bro.
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WC,
I remember you mentioning that someone has used the Audio Research REF 750 SE with the Neolith, and it was the best amplifier he had heard with the Neoliths. What do you think of trying them for yourself? On a scale of top amplifiers to try, I would think that the Audio Research REF 750 SE may be one of those choices. I noticed on Audiogon that one is for sale that has only 380 hours on it, and is a year old. When looking at what other amps you can audition, the Audio Research REF 750 SE seems like a logical choice (If you can get it at a good price, and be able to sell it for not much loss). Just me thinking out loud.......
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I would imagine with Acoustic concerts, that being closer is much better. Sorry to misunderstand, my bad. I enjoy all types of music, and Classical is the only one I haven't really paid much attention to. I have 2 Acoustic Guitars, and I find them much more enjoyable than electric ones. Enjoy.
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"
Concertgoers who sit up front don't get ear fatigue. Only audiophiles
who push the volume beyond natural levels get ear fatigue.
" WHAAAAT!!!
I can only assume this meant acoustic music. Anyone who has been to a Concert that is not acoustic, knows how much louder it is being in the front. I have been to many a concert over the years, and up front is a recipe for ringing ears. I must admit.... that being closer (not in front) lets you hear all the musicians better (ie: the drummer).
Over the years (and I have had a lot of them), I would steer away from buying "LIVE" albums of my favorite artists. The only one that comes to mind that was enjoyable was Peter Frampton's. Most of us audiophiles or music lovers with a decent stereo will enjoy a studio album of the same music. It's just that simple. My Lady was a sound engineer for many years, and the stories she can tell about "LIVE" performance, and the room correction headaches are endless. These statements have nothing to do with Classical music. That's a whole different banana.
I have been in the front of a venue many times where I was being pushed into the PA system by a whole lot of stoned people. They were just as happy to have ringing ears for a while after the concert. But to sit down to listen to your favorite artists, or even new ones always sound better with an album produced in the studio. Drops Mic.
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Allman Brothers Concert 1975, Long Island, New York. I had just gotten my car, and really wasn't ready to drive there with not that much experience. So I let my older friend drive my Station Wagon (66 Dodge Monaco 383) along with 5 others. My 1st concert with General Admission, and it was as good as you could get from a band LIVE. 3 hours plus, and it was amazing how they could start jamming, and extend the songs when they felt like it. I was 17. Great time....
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WC,
Question? They make a Lampizator Pacific with Balanced XLRs out and the Volume Control. I know that you already own a single ended one, but there is the possibility that the XLR version of the Pacific. It will have more gain and a lower noise floor for even blacker backrounds. XLR balanced to a high quality amp is usually better. I know that you would lose a little money selling your existing one....But the rewards could be more than any other upgrade or change you can make for your system. Also, who knows what will sound better.... no preamp or ARC Ref 10. You have come this far, and it is a possibility that the Pacific with XLR will bring better sound. Just a thought from the thinker, Me.
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I believe that the Lampizator Pacific is a great DAC. Tubes are so nice to have somewhere in the system with Solid State amplification. I pointed out that the Lampizator Pacific is available with XLR outputs. And thus the gain is increased, and the noise floor is decreased. Even if you use the ARC Ref 10 in the chain... the XLR outputs should garner better sound.
I don't think for a minute, that WCSS should sell his ARC Ref 10.
Funny thing......... I own the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 with the PS-5 external power supply. It's a DAC/Preamp/Head amp. It's a perfect example of a DAC with all proper design elements. Having a volume control with the proper gain and separate power supplies for digital and analog.
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I came across something when WCSS was deciding on what new DAC to get a couple of weeks ago. It was a review of the Lampizator Pacific, and it told a lot as well about the previous flagship Lampizator Golden Gate. It is quite long, but it points out the differences between the 2 Lampizators.
Dawid Grzyb, the writer had the Golden Gate with Volume Control and fully balanced XLRs. The interesting thing in the review is the way each DAC takes the music and produces a wonderful result. The Golden Gate is much more forgiving with the music (according to David), and many songs that are not the best recordings come out as listenable. The Pacific model comes out as being much more transparent, and faster. The Pacific is going to give you the whole banana of the recording quality, and therefore give you the music without any of the "very tube like" smoothness of the Golden Gate. The article makes for a great read, and points out some of the things that we look for in what we want from our DAC. It is definetly a great read of the 2 DACs from a company that has a designer with vision, and also has mated tubes to the DAC with terrific results. Here is the link to the Lampizator Pacific from Hifi Knights website... http://hifiknights.com/reviews/sources/lampizator-pacific/I just found this to be so relevant with the SOTA in the DAC world. |
Holy Cables Batman... that's a huge statement of the Odin power cables... I do not doubt what is happening..... but power cables, doing the sound a magnitude better? Makes you wonder what Voodoo that have found out. Anyway, I think it's great that you are tweaking your system, and getting it to sound even better.
I would love to see some Dan D'ag or the new Krell XD hooked up to the system. And the Gryphon Mephistos look crazy good too. I'm still so stoked that you have taken the time to work on those Neoliths. I have been wanting to see what they are really capable of. And you are sure going down that road.
Happy Super Bowl!!!
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I feel that Martin Logan uses lower case preamps and amplifiers as a marketing strategy to sell the speaker initially. I have noticed that much of the advertising shows claims of "easy to drive" with many different equipment options, even Receivers.
We all know that Martin Logan plays so much better with the right amplifiers. Class A amps just make for better sound with MLs, and I have called them and they won't tell you what brand to use. But they did say that an amp with a doubling of power down to 2 ohms or even better 1 ohm is what seems to work best.
So it looks to me like what the strategy behind inferior equipment is to get you to buy the product first. I don't think for a minute that Martin Logan is clueless. I think that they don't want to be bunched into the class of speaker that only sounds good with something really, really expensive. Eventually the speaker owner will figure it out by talking to some others about how much better sounding they are with great electronics. |
There is..... I'm sure.... quite a few other combinations of equipment that will make for great sounding Neoliths. The Solid State side of it still has the D'ag, SimAudio, Gryphon. And the coveted Naim Statement, which has been endgame for some.
Then there are some of the tube amplifiers that may bring great sound.... but minus the high db levels of Solid State gear. Tube preamps could also bring something new to the table.
There is one thing that is now quite clear..... (with WCSS testing). The Neolith is an endgame speaker system, that is welcome in the heady company of any speaker made in the world.
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WCSS,
This is just a suggestion..... take the time out to test these new Odin Speaker cables against your previous favorites..... but test by taking the new Odin Power Cords out of the system and putting back the original cords. Put the ARC Ref 10 back. So basically you will just be testing the difference between speaker cables. You got too much crap going on at once.... and the understanding of what each piece is doing is not possible. Each cable, whether power cable or speaker cable from Nordost with have a filter like effect on you equipment. And as such, conclusions need to be taken one at a time. The Odin Power Cords are definitely, in a way filtering things, and I'm not sure that they are doing things in a good way (just an opinion). It also makes sense to have your speaker cable figured out first, before the power cords. You may not beat your WireWorld speaker cables with the Odins, but you will be able to tell the difference much easier with regular power cords.
I'm on the fence with what these fancy power cords actually do IMO. Especially at Odin prices. You could be bi-amping those Neoliths. But that is just me. I'm also the guy that loves his 8 gauge speaker cables, so I could be the crazy one. |
@viber6,
I use speaker cable from the Car Audio Industry.
KnuKonceptz Karma Kable Twisted 8 Gauge Speaker Copper Wire OFC
(8 feet). I supply my own connectors. Currently I have Banana to my ML Montis Speakers, and Spades to my Krell KSA-200S amplifier. These speaker cables allow for a very strong bass, and are just a little easy on the highs. Seems that the thinner versions of this same cable will give you just a little bit more up top. I have been using this brand for so many years, that I don't remember even when I started to use them. The construction of these cables for the money is a hidden secret that gives you high end OFC tinned copper for little money. And they perform. In the car stereos I would build.... 8 guage was used for the subs. I have seen many a subwoofer cable burn up, from being too small a guage. Shooting 500 watts with almost 1000 watt peaks out of my Krell amp to the Martin Logan Montis does quite well with this 8 guage speaker cable. And also my system likes to be played at low and medium volumes, and these speaker cables shine when these lower levels are in play. Very pleased with the sound quality. But I look foward to testing some new speaker cables in the future. I'm spending time just listening lately, and not doing any tweaking till 2020.
For about $75.00, you can build a set of these at 8 ft length. I just finished last year with my Morrow Audio cables for XLR and RCA, Coax and REL Subs.
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My Knuconceptz Karma SS (8 gauge) has 860 strands per side and is twisted. What I like is the cable is all OFC copper with silver tinning throughout. You can buy the Karma SS from 16 gauge all the way down to 8 gauge. I like the twisted cable design personally, but I am open to anything that has great sound. I will stand by my statement that a larger gauge cable can transfer large amounts of power, along with more bass.
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WCSS,
It's been a few days since we have heard from you.....Let us know you are ok. Thanks. Big D
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WCSS,
Are the Wireworld Platinium 7 Speaker Cables gone? Can you get them back somehow?
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Good luck with the Shunyata stuff. Don't know until you try.
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I am an owner of quite a few Morrow Audio cables. They are quite good with Martin Logans. Love them for making separation of instruments and vocalists surreal. In the future... I will be getting their speaker cables.
They have a sale that you can get their $4,000 speaker cable "Elite Grand Reference Speaker Cable (1152 runs of Morrow SSI wires)
" for $1,600 (60% off). These are 2 cables perchannel. One positive cabe, and one negative cab. They have sales all times of the year.
60 day Returns with 100% money back/less shipping....... decide if you like them, with a return available is a safe way to find out if you get the 3D imaging that I get.
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WCSS,
You mentioned that you sent the Lampi back to Poland. With their trade in policy, wouldn't it make sense to get the XLR output preamp either put in or get that model? Should sound a whole lot better. It's a possibility, and it's right there in Poland now. Just a thought.
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WCSS,
I think I remember that you liked the copper Wireworld 7 over the silver Wireworld 8. Just a thought to check out the copper ones. Sometimes full copper makes for a fuller sound from top to bottom. Silver tends to make the highs stand out more. In the end, a good cable will not bring ear fatigue over a short period of listening. With these new Nordost Odin 1 power cables, it looks like you are getting a spike already with the mids to the highs. A balance may be needed in order to get the sound you are looking for. Just a thought. Wish I could be there to hear these Neoliths. They are just starting to show what they are capable of.
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This "silver" or "copper" speaker cable is not an issue. There usually is a difference in sound like you state. I'm just pointing out a way of taking a look of what the recipe may bring with "copper" speaker cables. I don't like overbearing highs with digital playback. Therefore, I prefer a bit of ease at the top of the music spectrum. Reminds me more of the analog days. Having tweaked the crap out of most things audio in life (a ton), I'm trying to give input on ways to see what's best. That's all. @greyhound, that's cool that you are a car stereo guy as well as me.
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The last thing you want to give Martin Logans is too much clarity in the highs. Ear fatigue, my friend. And it's just not natural to have highs stand out too much. You are still finding the proper speaker cable, I think.
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@viber6
Agreed. Too much energy, not clarity. |
viber6,
I was pointing out to be careful that you don't mess with the highs so much that you get too much of a good thing.
I love to blast my music at times, but my family will only tolerate so much of the whole house in an earthquake with my electronic dance music. So I try to only do that once a week or so. I love most all types of music, and some can be turned up quite a bit for a few minutes. My Krell KSA-200S is a real gem with having the current available to set off some "holy sheet" moments at high volume. But most listening is done at respectable levels. My music listening goes all the way from the 60's to now. If it sounds good, I'm ok with the type of music it is. There is not a music type that I like more than another. I'm quite good at picking out the tracks (ahead of time) that will play on the radio, and become hits. At 62, I still get excited about new music coming out. My only regret is how much money I have spent to get to where I wanted to be with my retirement home system. It does sound exceptional though. Cheers.
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The Golden Lampizator Pacific with XLR and Volume Control. The single best upgrade to your system.
Other than trying some amps from Dan D'ag and some others, you are hitting the top of the heap. Great choices. It may take a while to get the cables figured out? Keep it fun and all is good. |
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sounds good. I wonder what they could be?
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Group 2......
1st of all they are Martin Logans, and the panel size will work in many size rooms. The bottom end could overwhelm the room, but with some tweaks, that can be effectively fixed. So it's going to be hard to have any smaller speaker sound better. Are there speakers that will sound as good or better? Could be that you could find more dynamics, or velvet sound. I think thate remember you talking about having another sound room for your endgame in your home. And it would be a little bigger. So the variable would change, and the Neoliths would have more room to shine against others. I would clearly hold onto the Neolith until you knew you had something better. Nothing worse than buyers remorse.
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Paradigm
and Martin Logan is owned and made at the same facility in Canada. The new Persona line is extremely well made. Some don't like the high end, as I've not heard any of the line. I can only say that they are trying to compete to be the best you can buy with dynamic drivers. Time will tell if WCSS can get the perfect tone out of these babies. But I gotta say that his choice of the Persona line is something that I have always wanted to hear myself. Sure, the 9f is the flagship, and should be the one to buy for the endgame SOTA system. The bass is amplified, where the Persona 7f is not. This company also owns Anthem. There are a lot of moving parts here, and it will only get better with Anthem, Paradigm, and Martin Logan under it's roof as assets. I would love to have the Persona 9f to try in my sound room.
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With all the crazy money spent on these top tier cables....
Speakers that have not been mentioned to compete with the Neoliths, and possibly surpass is the Wilson Alexx. They are $109k new, so they are not for the faint of heart. The Wilson Alexia 2 looks to be a good speaker, but the Alexx is a great speaker that will fill a room in a way that would satisfy audiophiles wanting a large presentation of sound. Lose some of the pricey cables by Nordost, and all of a sudden money appears. This is just a though by a guy (me) that dreams of higher end systems that I cannot afford.
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Gotta like that Martin Logan sound. I listened to dynamic speakers for a week, and went back to the Logans, and the vocals and instruments just floated in the air. Something I'm not getting with dynamic drivers.
But is it the end all to best sound. I think not. I know in my heart that one day I will hear something more full bodied, with the "in the air" type presentation of electrostatics. |
@allvinyl,
The GT Audio Works panels look to be extremely good. I'm curious as to whether they would work well with some REL S5 subs, instead of
Sound Insight OB subs, due to space constraints with many rooms not being able to support the Sound Insight subs. What I'm hearing thru my Reference Headphone setup on YouTube Demos of the GTA3r is amazing clarity and a nice meaty sound coming from the panels. Looks like a fine choice, and truly SOTA. This is coming from a ML Montis owner with 2 REL S3 subs running in stereo for bass foundation.
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Changing the subject.....
Anyone hear anything good about the Krell XD amplifier improvements, other than the initial reporting about it.
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I'm looking foward to hearing what WCSS thinks of the
GT Audio Works
speakers. They look like they are something that will satisfy panel people, possibly even more than the Martin Logan 13 or 15s. And drop jaws of the dynamic speaker type. Will it beat the Neoliths? Probably going to be some fight with the right stereo subwoofer setup on the
GT Audio Works.
I would personally put a pair of the REL S series with them. A pair of REL S5 or 212SE would be an alternative to their open baffle sub design. I'm hooked on the bass foundation of the RELs, shoot me. |
WCSS,
Thanks for going to the show. It makes for a good dose of equipment reviews that you may not have brought into your own home.
From a perspective of "where you are" at in this quest, I think it was a very good choice to get on an airplane and go hear other things.
Drives you crazy sometimes.... the music they play is not the type that we listen to. Don't they want to sell the equipment? I'll never get that, and will tell them right to their face that they are not setting a good example to music lovers that like other types than they do.
I'm glad you listened to the GT Audio speakers. But in the end.... the Martin Logan/Constellation Audio system showed what sounded best, and it was Martin Logan.
Focal's top speaker is so massive. Would love to hear that baby. Enjoy.
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Ocean Way Audio is some serious equipment. Great for Open Floor Plan Homes. Sound is great at all angles.
Hidden gem of a recording studio company that does home audio Micheal Jackson used this company for home sound. Similar to my JBL Professional System for great stereo separation way off-axis.
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Thank you everyone for going to the show and seeing some of the latest equipment. It really helps.
Warmth and body is still something I find could be improved in my ML Montis system with 2 REL S3 subs. When I added the RELs, the body improved dramatically. The finished system is jaw dropping.
But can it sound better? I bet the Naim Statements would beat my Krell KSA-200S for warmth and body. Wish they were affordable. But the fact that they can be made is a feat in itself.
Then I think of the Revel Salon 2 with my RELs. WCSS really liked them and they are reasonably priced used. I have not know of another dynamic speaker other than Revel or Legacy that would be priced well enough for us mere mortals. Any feedback would be appreciated.
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WCSS,
Will you be using the Roland amps or the Block audio amps to test out the Lampizator w/XLR? It wouldn't also hurt to test out the AR REF 10 preamp in the chain as well. I'm very excited to hear about the Lampizator w/XLR. There should be an improvement in the "body and weight" of the sound over SE outputs. Sounds like a great match for the Neoliths.
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The Lampizator is so much better looking in GOLD!! WOW!! And with XLRs now!!
Me thinks that the Lampizator could use some type of special shelf and vibration isolation for the unit. I would call the look of the DAC "Majestic".
Will it sound better with both the Constellation Amp/Preamp combination? I would speculate yes. Possible better bottom end and body with the whole bunch. Only testing will tell.
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Critical Mass Center Stage Footers
are a great choice.
Those tubes on the Lampizator would like that, for sure. I have my Tube Preamp with (4) 6SN7 tubes isolated and it works really well. |
@keithr
There is a pair of Neoliths for sale right here on Audiogon $52.5K. Take a look.
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