No, Jay, you win. And I never criticized you for bringing in top level stuff.
I understand the idea to experiment with top level preamp and various levels amps, and the other way around. But in this case I thought it was too far apart. Besides, Boulder and Pass have so different sound signatures, they don't compliment each other but contradict each other.
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Yeah, if I had this Boulder preamp and had almost no funds left for power amp, I would at least find old Gryphon and would probably be quite happy. But not less than that. |
Why combine top level preamp with second rate amp ? Pass is not a top level brand. The same with Luxman and even Accuphase. Top level preamp with top level amp, that's the way. |
Boulder/Pass is terrible, especially compared to your previous set ups.
Boulder preamp is great but that Pass.. It is very far from real. |
Boulder preamp brought out all the weaknesses of the Pass. That's exactly the reason to do experiments like that. It didn't make Pass amp sound better.
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Yeah, the Pass that faxer posted.
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Yes, Gryphon has a cult following. I suppose, the latest generation Boulder should have too, but Boulder separates are so incredibly expensive.
I am sure D'Adostino is popular as well, soulful presentation. |
'For the money" I would just get Gryphon Diablo 120 or 300, much more correct sound. |
No way. I think, Gryphon sound is much closer to reality. Near top level. In my view, ultimately Gryphon loses to Boulder but it has great sound.
As for D'Agostino, it is more complicated to me. Yes, I would take Boulder over it any day and yet, though Gryphon sound is closer to Boulder sound than D'Agostino, I would take D'Agostino over Gryphon. D'Agostino is closer to my preferred tube sound than any other SS.
In other words, talking separates, with Gryphon I would be somewhere in the middle. Some will call it a great compromise and take Gryphon. I understand that, no objection. But for me - no, either Boulder or D'Agostino. Diablo integrated - great value, great sound, within financial reach of many audiophiles.
I will perhaps exaggerate a little. Speaking top level separates. Gryphon - macho style, no true confidence. Boulder - true confidence, not imposing, tremendous lead of speakers. Unlike Gryphon that grabs them but does not lead them. |
Speakers is a totally different matter. Very subjective, very much a matter of taste, and of the kind of music one listens to. Like instruments. |
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I can't really guess the speakers that are coming. Probably not Magico or Wilson. Kharma or Sonus Faber perhaps. If so, it certainly is going to be a different sound. I like Kharma.
Those Boulders and those top of the line Boulders that I posted keep sounding in my heard. And that's youtube not reality.
It actually would be interesting to compare Boulder and Gryphon with large scale music. Maybe Gryphon would win overall. Gryphon designer Flemming Rasmussen, now semi-retired, said he himself preferred large scale music. Well, I doubt Gryphon would win but who knows ?
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Oh, I'll trust you.
I listened to more of various recordings on youtube with both Luxman and Accuphase amplification. In all cases I liked Accuphase more. I know, they are very overpriced in the US so Luxman looks like a better value. That may be but I think Accuphase is one or two steps above. If not Gryphon Diablo integrated I personally would be looking for used Accuphase integrated at this level, not Luxman or Pass. |
Boulder is good, Wilsons are good, cabling is good.
Pass amps are popular because they sound nice not because they sound right. |
Gryphon Essence is their new entry level, I understand. 55 watt/ch /8ohm. It's Gryphon class A power but still your new speakers got to be quite efficient.
Listening to your recordings it was clear cut to me, I always preferred Boulder, at some moments by far. Maybe in reality it would've been somewhat different, maybe. Boulder is also more expensive so perhaps more people who are ready to buy will choose Gryphon stereo. |
There is a debate going on on Audiogon - Absolute or Pleasing sound thread. I belong to the school of realists, mostly.
Boulder, Gryphon, D'Agostino don't sound the same, and Boulder is the closest to the real thing to my ear, but they are all at a different level, they all sound just about right. Like the same band performing in different concert halls.
I hate Magico sound, I consider it artificial hi-fi. Nothing against bigger Wilson, I would be happy to have Wilson Maxx in my room. Well, I would need to move to have a bigger room for them. |
When listening to youtube I always use Burson dac and Grado RS-1 headphones, not the main system.
But I got a question. When listening to Jay's comparisons I couldn't tell which one, Boulder or Gryphon, did better overall with low bass. What do you think? |
Sure.
Michael Green Audio free resonance Rev80i speakers.
Nottingham Spacedeck/Spacearm/Goldring 1042 table/arm/cartridge.
Nakamichi 682ZX cassette deck.
Acoustech PH-1 phono stage.
Burson Audio Timekeeper power amp.
Burson Audio Soloist preamp/headphone amp.
PS Audio PPP current regenerator.
WyWires Diamond, Purist Audio Neptune, Tchernov Reference interconnects.
Purist Dominus RevB power cord ( for the amp)
Purist Aquila power cord ( for the regenerator )
Custom Power Cord Company Top Gun power cords for the phono stage and preamp.
Purist Colossus speaker cables.
I was thinking about some upgrades and then I thought that almost everything has to be upgraded if I want to go much higher.
I often run deck directly into the power amp and run the phono through the deck, that's bypass the Burson preamp.
Almost bought used Gryphon Diablo 120 last month but thought it would be too tough financially, so I'll wait for now. And speakers need replacement too but what I want - Kharma or Wilson - is too much at present. |
So..anyone is thinking of buying D'Agostino Momentum integrated ? It's only $45k. Can one get overall higher performance with separates for about the same? Considering typical midsize room. |
I thought you were not interested in tubes. VTL ? Wavac? Allnic? CAT?
Dac directly into power amp ? Most people prefer preamp in between. I have no opinion, it probably depends. |
I am trying to understand why apparently many like Luxman sound. I can't. I mean, there is nothing bad but I find nothing special or engaging.
Accuphase is not particularly engaging either but it is a more refined deeper sound. Yeah, a bit too mellow for me, but it's excellent sound. Sure, I'd take D'Agostino instead and Gryphon as well but it has its appeal. Classic Japanese transistor sound. |
I think, it's a good idea. Though I myself too would probably go with separates, many would choose integrated for the simplicity, space and aesthetics. Not everyone enjoys living room full of boxes, weird lights and cables. Gryphon Diablo, both 120 and 300, and D'Agostino Momentum integrated make sense to me. Well, speaking new equipment. However, D'Agostino is $45k, and almost certainly for this kind of money I would get Lamm hybrid power amps and Lamm preamp. But that's me. |
No, it will be JBL Everest. |
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After watching your videos, Jay, I now want nothing but Boulder and D'Agostino. And add Wilson Alexx to it. I didn't really like those JM Labs Focal speakers. And Wilson Alexx is so much better than the model you had before, Sasha, I think.
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I'll try to be there.
Powered by what ? |
Perfect. I was hoping for either Kharma or new Wilson. Thank you. |
Are we going to see Boulder integrated at some point, maybe ? I wouldn't expect much after the separates but still.
Just think about it - $60k only for the preamp, even perhaps the very best SS preamp. I am not saying it's not worth it, quite the opposite, it is just, well, unattainable for most, at least new. How much was Gryphon Pandora, $35k ? |
Definitely lesser but still excellent speakers and top electronics is much preferable than the other way around.
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Speakers/electronics cost proportion. Speaking new equipment. I can imagine having entry level Kharma or Wilson speakers in the future. About $20k. What would I drive them with, at minimum ? Hmm. I would try Soulution 330 integrated with Kharma and Gryphon Diablo 300 with Wilson. I could also try Accuphase E-800 with both. Diablo with phono and dac is over $20k, Soulution and Accuphase too. Plus sources and cables. Speakers can't be 50% the cost of the system, not for me, they are less. |
Nor does Gryphon Diablo, I think.
I understand the reasoning behind the speakers choice. I also can sometimes 'read between words' , which was not really much "between". That's not the speakers that Jay wanted but he had to accept the reality, a few elements of it. But it's alright, even those of us who are disappointed will be looking forward to hearing whatever Jay is going to show us. In addition, I think that we simply want to support Jay in his audiophile business endeavour. |
I wouldn’t suggest vinyl. I would suggest reel to reel deck and master tape dubs. Problem is that after hearing that it would be difficult to listen to anything else. But it would be great to have both top analog and top digital sources. I understand, the current source is streaming plus dCS dac. |
It should be fun driving $170k speakers with $16k integrated. Not going to happen in reality, I guess. $170k speakers usually mean at least $350k system. But it is going to be fun, look forward to hearing whatever I could hear on youtube. |
Amazon is a monster that will get us all if we are not careful. I can get just about any credit card but I don't even consider Amazon anything. This is modern America, you need a good lawyer, including for substantial financial transactions. |
It should never sound better overall without active preamp. But this preamp must be really good, and the interconnects between preamp and power amp must be as good or better as the interconnects between the source and preamp. If it is not the case than dac direct can sound better.
If you want the very best sound there is no way around, you need great active preamp. Even with analog source, both phono stage and tape deck. Everything should be well matched, of course. Tape deck directly to power amp sounds good, by the way, quite acceptable until you find funds for a preamp plus cables. |
Jay is absolutely right. If someone really wants to do negative advertising, so to speak, one must be very determined and prepared.
Anyway, we look forward to hearing Diablo 300 with Magico M6. |
Yeah, this is all very unpleasant, to say the least.
There might be another way of paying. You do it by hiring a lawyer, paying fees and having the lawyer handle the transaction. Lawyers will use some escrow system as well. I personally have never done it but it might be worth exploring. Since you regularly buy and sell expensive stuff, this might be a way for you to stop worrying about what could go wrong. I don't know how much law firm would charge for that but it shouldn't be a lot, not much work for them.
There is an Audiogon member whart, he is a retired lawer, he might offer you an advice too. I talked to him privately about records but not about legal things. |
I heard that Soulution sound excellent with Stage III power cords but you have top Nordost, Audioquest and something else, I forgot what. Should be fine. What do Soulution distributor and dealers recommend, I wonder ?
I think, one can speak of Swiss sound and engineering, not sure of Danish sound and engineering.
It would also be interesting to have D’Agostino Momentum integrated for comparison. $55k for integrated is a hell of a lot of money. Soulution 330 is $22k or so, I think, without phono and dac options. I only heard 330 on youtube with smaller Kharma speakers and some other speakers. Sounded good to me, refined sound, very different from both Gryphon and Accuphase integrateds. |
Let's just not call each other names. Whatever the reasons, that sounds like crap to me. How much is Focal Grand Utopia, $250k ? Not my preferred sound either, I consider it bright, but that's my preference, I would not call their sound artificial.
I don't really want to comment about digital sources, especially streaming.
There is Zanden cd transport/dac for sale on Audiogon, now that would make an excellent digital source, I guess, never heard Zanden.
And Jay, I said "too digital", I didn't say it about your previous set-ups.
Wilson speakers were alive with any amplification you used, these so far are sort of robotic AI. |
Don't like the sound, artificial and incoherent. And too digital. I think, not enough power for the speakers as well. |
I am sure, Jay, that you are going to get very different impressions. Impossible to do but I would compare it to Soulution/Wilson set up. Magico seemingly sound more open than Wilson, though.
Based only on this video I would never consider Magico speakers, as for the Soulution 530 I would definitely try it with other speakers. Kharma, Sonus Faber etc.
This sound as presented and heard thru youtube is very far from real. |
It wouldn't occur to me to match dac with speakers, but why not ? It does occur to me to sort of match phono cartridge with speakers, though.
Yes, I already admitted I was spoiled by the Boulder.
I think, Wilson camp and Magico camp will remain as separate as ever. And yet another camp don't accept either. |
Not just tweeter, the whole thing appears to be wrong, we'll see. And that slippery carbon fiber..
Wilson is real macho stuff, Magico is hi-tech 'digital' silicon whatever.
Hurt back..
I don't think it is going to be top Boulders, that'd be $250k retail, but maybe Mephisto monoblocks, or DarTzeel or..I don't know. |
Yes, big Wilsons, Boulders, Gryphons, D'Agostinos, where are you ? |
Top electronics exposes speakers, this Magico is going to be exposed too, as the Wilson was. But even not top, just pretty good, electronics like Soulution 530 will show enough. I personally don't really have any bias, that's I don't care which speakers will sound better to me. As with the amps, before hearing those Boulders my preference was Gryphon, and I had no idea about D'Agostino sound. Now I would choose either Boulder or D'Agostino and would pass Gryphon, except Diablo. But even with Diablo I might actually prefer overall top Accuphase integrated, not sure, would to a degree depend on speakers too.
In any case, this thread is mostly about amplifiers, Jay just brought in very controversial and polarizing brand. Wilson, most people are at least OK with. |
Soulution appears to be a great match, I am sure separates would do better. I won't comment when you post video with Pass amps, I reject Pass sound signature no matter the speakers or source quality. |
First rate sound, just excellent. I still wish for more power but it's alright as it is. Such a transparent clear soundscape. Nothing sterile about it, it's just digital. |
Jay, I wanted to ask a question about bass. Definitely not enough of it. Why is that ? Are both pieces fully burnt in ? Not enough power/current ? |
Is the Soulution class A or AB or class A until certain point and then AB ?
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