@jays_audio_lab I tend to think the opposite, any speaker over (x) dollar amount should be an easy enough load for any amp to drive. I am not one who believes that the higher powered amps are also typically the best sounding amps.
Plus, in the case of the Alexx V's ( and they are certainly NOT alone in this aspect) at their asking price, I believe this is a severe detriment to their value and design ethos..due to locking one into an amp that has ( as you put it) no fear to drive any load! These monster amps typically do NOT have the best SQ IMO--and IME. While I see your point about any amp costing $200K having no problem driving any load, I think that over-simplifies things a bit and it does not ( at least IMO) apply to the amps true value. A better arbiter would be to discuss the inner workings and quality of the parts, plus the ultimate SQ that said amp can deliver for the monies asked. The cost to value equation is one that all folks have to figure out for themselves, which is another discussion entirely.
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I have a friend who bought YG’s from a local dealer. As most folks here know, YG’s are a pretty expensive speaker and virtually impossible to drive ( certainly by any tube amp in existence!). After trying various ss power amps in his budget, which admittedly was not in the mega kilo-buck arena, he had to give up on the YG’s and try and sell them. No amp other than monster ss amps could drive them!!
Maybe a pair of Parasounds may have worked, but my friend was so very disappointed in the speakers that he agreed to lose tens of thousands of $$’s on the used sale. Now, i’m sure there are a ton of folks who believe that my friend should have known better before buying this speaker, or at the very least been told this by his dealer before purchase...unfortunately in this case he claims neither occurred. ( or maybe the dealer did mention it, and he forgot or ignored the advice, either way the cost was high for him to complete the purchase).
Do you think my friend is pissed at the speaker manufacturer---or the amp manufacturers?
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I wouldn't slam the amps either, but I do think the speaker design is the fault, not the amp design. Regardless of the cost.
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Not a good analogy, IMHO.
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What would you rather have for your $100K speaker budget, a speaker that only sounds good with very few amps ( almost all of which require you to spend big $$)..and requires an amp that can basically drive a short...thereby ruling out all kinds of amp combinations and topologies, or a speaker that can easily be driven by just about any amp extant...and still sounds great?
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@jays_audio_lab Do you think that an amps drive capability always has to do with its ultimate SQ ability. IOW, the higher the power the better the amp?
Having heard the D'Ag Relentless mono blocs on several occasions, which probably can drive just about any speaker on the planet, I can tell you that there are a number of amps, all of which are lower powered ( many of them tube based designs--and most of them far less costly) that I would rather own.
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An amps ability to control the speaker that it is hooked up to is probably what most of us are talking about..plus the fact that it makes said speaker sing. There are a ton of horrid sounding amps that are able to drive just about any speaker known, many of these designs are inexpensive and well known. I doubt that is what is being discussed here, instead we are talking about an amps synergy with the partnering speaker, which in the case of a design like the Wilson Alexx V limits one considerably. So much so, that IMO some of the very best sounding amps will simply be disqualified. Perhaps I have not stated this before, but IME the best sounding amps in a particular line are almost always the lower to mid powered offerings. As the power increases, IME the SQ decreases...but for many..YMMV.
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Cable shoot outs are always interesting. Jay your points about the soundstage getting smaller with the Verastar cables could well be due to a mismatch with the gear..caused by any number of variables, and in fact nothing to do with the overall cable ability with other gear that would be a better synergistic match up. Easy to fall into the trap of saying cable A is better than cable B. Cable shoot outs are therefore IMO of little value, unless done in one's own system and room.
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@viber6 The Linn LP12 has come a very long way since the 80’s. Today with the latest upgrades the LP12 is a very different sounding table to the 80’s version. My LP12 only has its original plinth and top plate from the 90’s. The table sounds nothing like the versions of yesteryear. If you have not had a chance to listen to a current model, i suggest that you go and listen for yourself.
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@psnyder149 Agreed, one of the biggest drawbacks to the LP12 is having to take it to a specialized dealer for servicing. However, I think this same thing could be said about almost all gear, and several other turntables in particular. So, in that regard maybe the Linn is no different. Not saying this is a positive attribute, just common.
As to Ivor, i do agree he was somewhat visionary, although the vision definitely worked well for his product category.
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@viber6 I have been a ’Linnie’ for about 30+ years. My first LP12 was like yours, a Valhalla model from the mid 80’s. The only parts leftover from my original model are the plinth ( a like new afro fluted) and the top plate. Each upgrade I have done over the years has improved the overall resolution and also the ability to dig deeper into what is in the groove. The big upgrades are the new Karousel bearing, which is a major step up over the older Cirkus bearing, which itself was a big improvement over the original white bearing. The new bearing is machined to 5 microns, as such bearing noise is basically non-existent. The new Radikal D power supply is also a huge step up over the Valhalla ( and all Lingo’s). It brings a much more dynamic and extended frequency response to the SQ.
I am constantly hearing from folks whose LP12 was built back in the day, sometimes (most times) decades ago, folks this table is only really comparable only in name...both called LP12’s. The difference in SQ is truly astounding and IMHO like night and day. Today, I have compared by AB my table against the likes of the latest Technics 10’s, the new SOTA’s, the top-line Rega 10’s, EAT’s, several Clearaudio’s and Garrard 301’s/401’s...I am still a ’Linnie’ if that says anything!
The tonearm cable does matter a lot, IME. I currently use a Nordost Tyr with my arm set up, it is far more resolved than the stock Linn T-Kable.
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@viber6 Good question as to the similarity of the arms and cartridges. We did not use the same arm or cartridge for all tables. This was something that was not possible. However, all the tables in question had their owners preferred arm and cartridge. All cartridges were good MC's and we did try and match up gain at the preamp. I do not believe the arm and cartridge combo's to have such a large influence as the different type of table used. Which goes along with Linn's philosophy of table first. Could it have impacted the results, sure, but not to an extent that was heard IME.
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@keithr The top line MSB DAC’s are very good DAC’s, They bring a lot of what one gets from a good analog rig, but it is not analog. IME, if you really want the best sound from your source, you still need vinyl or tape. Is analog required to get good sound, no, but the cost of the top flite MSB and Wadax gear is comparable or more than great analog. Is digital more convenient than analog, certainly; is it the best sounding source? No it is not, IMHO.
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To those who are totally into digital and are in any way offended with my posts supporting analog superiority, please feel free to ignore my posts.
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@jafant There was an original Wamm being displayed at AXPONA. Hopefully Jay or someone else took a video.
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@jays_audio_lab No excuses necessary. I enjoy your posts here and your contributions. Listening to Youtube videos does nothing for me...the SQ is a joke to start with and IMHO nothing can really be gleaned as to SQ from listening to even the best systems over headphones from a computer feed. YMMV.
You don’t need subscribers over there, you need them here...where it matters, LOL.
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With what Jay stated above, my suggestion would be for the forum mods to shut this thread down. After all, according to Jay, he doesn’t need it anymore! Wow!!
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Jay, you seem to believe this thread has no further value to you, so why object if it gets shut down?
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@jays_audio_lab maybe you can answer a simple question?Why is it that anytime someone disagrees with someone else’s opinion, the first word to come out of their mouth is the word… ‘troll’?
I get you don’t like my opinions here, as they don’t sit well with your agenda, but try and consider other opinions…no??
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@psnyder149 IF you take the time to actually read the posts, it was Jay himself who stated that he saw no value to being here and much preferred his Youtube channel; leading me to suggest that the mods shut down the thread! Therefore, what is the point of this thread continuing?? If Jay sees little value with his continued contribution here, why do we want this thread to continue?? OTOH, It was Jay himself who got very defensive once i suggested the shut down, hmm I wonder why?? LOL!!!
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@mulveling Thank you. Agree with you 100%.
@jays_audio_lab Sorry to see you get so defensive about this thread and its survival. As you may be able to tell from a few other posters, your comments about preferring YouTube and your post about how we would be waiting for an extended period before seeing your videos here certainly made myself ( and it would seem others) believe you had lost interest in this forum and this thread. Since that now appears not to be the case (?), I do think you may want to get off my back and reel in your rabid dogs. Oh, and remember to not call everyone that disagrees with you the ’t’ word!
I am off this thread now, as going forward there is nothing here for me...
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@keithr +1000
The CS footers were a hot topic, as were some of the replies that Mr. Weaver gave to anyone who he deemed to ask any question he did not like!😏
Keith, question... you had the same honor of being banned from WBF? I thought I was the only one who was deemed worthy, darn it! 😃
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Nice, glad to see that Jay is looking at another/alternative source component...a Kronos. A turntable ( and a good one at that) will allow the system to show off its best abilities.
The MSB gear is great for digital, but if you want to go to the next step, vinyl is required...and here's the thing, IF you want to go above that...well then we have tape! If budget allows, all three are great to have in the system, but analog is an ultra expensive proposition...and tape is not far behind.
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@jays_audio_lab When I talk about the cost of analog, I am not just talking about the cost of the hardware, but also the cost of the software! I currently own about 15K LP's, which i have acquired over a near lifetime of collecting. ( at one time I had nearly 100K LP's, but have weeded out to what i consider the cream..although still going to be doing more of that). There is absolutely no way I could afford to acquire this collection today if I had to start over. This is the real 'hidden cost' of great analog...the LP collection that is large enough and of enough quality, plus the ability to acquire it. I have had friends who have bought large collections, only to realize that what they bought was vastly over-priced and generally of poor quality from not only a condition perspective, but more importantly from a rarity and collectibility/SQ perspective.
IME, a great analog set up means exactly that--someone able to properly do an extremely accurate set-up and also for the user to understand what it is that they are going to be able to achieve with their particular analog hardware.
Just plopping a good table and arm/cartridge down into one's system is just half of the battle...the synergy with the upstream gear also needs to be considered, and the flexibility of the various upstream gear as well.
While viber6 is correct, i do believe in the Linn hierarchy of what is most important in the turntable's build, i also think that the synergy between components perhaps even trumps that. If you get your tonearm wrong for the cartridge, or your cartridge mismatched with your phono preamp, or you tonearm cable mismatched to your arm or cartridge--you will hear the detrimental results.
Will the Kronos better the MSB DAC that is in discussion, IME it will easily better it with certain music and with the right set up...IMHO digital always has a sheen of digititis ( for want of a better word) and when you hear that go away, it is hard to not hear it again. ( and the MSB Select 2DAC is one of the best two DAC's I have ever heard), but compared to great analog ( or better still- great tape) it comes in a fairly distant second. ( or third).
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IME, the Kronos and its arm are a fairly easy match up to a number of good cartridges. The combo is one of the easier tables to dial in and also to match up synergistically with a number of cartridge options.
Jay may want to determine if he wants a more resolved sound, or a warmer and slightly less resolved sound first, as this will drive cartridge selection. With the beryllium tweeters in his speakers, ( as some of you know, I am not much of a fan of these) perhaps introducing a little warmth into the system may be good. OTOH, I see that OZ did not hear brightness with the digital set up ( a good thing), however, this may not be the case if the cartridge leads to the analytical side of things..
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@jays_audio_lab Love your last video. I am super impressed with the fact that you are open to the idea of analog. I think the points about physical media are also spot on. In my system, SACD/CD and vinyl are the two source options, not streaming as I believe too much is lost in that format due to what you discuss.
As to a cartridge, this is actually not the make or break of the front end, as the tonearm and the table ( which you have covered nicely) are more important as to ultimate SQ. I have heard the Kronos set up on a number of occasions, ( my local dealer used to be their dealer). The set up works well with a variety of cartridges. The Ortofons work well in that arm ( the new Verismo, for example), albeit one has to be careful as to the ultra low output of some of their models. The Lyra Etna Lambda is another great option. ( if in budget). I would probably not entertain a Koetsu or similar if you want more resolution in the system.
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One of the interesting things about analog is that there are a number of opinions as to what works best and how to achieve the ultimate from our records. What i think is pretty much agreed upon is that analog is more inconvenient than digital and demands a little more of the end user.
As to the hierarchy of which is more important, the cartridge or the arm/table; it has been demonstrated by a number of reviewers and others ( including Linn dealers) that you can place the best cartridge on a marginal turntable and arm and hear far less in SQ than a entry level cartridge mounted on a top flite table and arm. I have done this very experiment myself and concur with these results.
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@keithr Keith, I cannot agree with you on many of the MoFi reissues. While some are as you describe, mostly from the older parts of their catalog, the newer releases have impressed me greatly. I do agree that if the reissue is from a digital file/recording, that is probably a miss, but some of these can be excellent as well. For instance, the highly prized MoFi release of Allison Krauss and Union Station ’Live’ is a digital recording, yet this is one of the best sounding LP’s in my collection.
I also think the MoFi Dire Straits releases mentioned above are also a hit.
Agree 100% that the hard part of vinyl is not the analog rig, but the vinyl acquisition and the cost associated with that!
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IMO, the order that you posted is exactly correct..1) the table 2) the arm and 3) the cartridge...in that order. The phono cable may even come ahead of the cartridge.
As rsf507 points out, the speed accuracy is of primary importance. Getting the best signal to noise ratio is also up there, which means the bearing of the table is of paramount importance. The lower the noise floor the better.
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@viber6 You may not have done the ’AB’ that you suggest, listing to the Linn Majik with a top flite moving coil vs. the Linn Klimax with a moving magnet. However, i have actually done this ’AB’...and once again the Klimax sounds a lot better to my ears than the Majik model. Probably due to these factors...1) the moving magnet cartridge really was not that bad of a cartridge ( it was an AT design). 2) the speed accuracy was easily heard with the Radikal D power supply vs. the simple Majik power supply and 3) the arm on the Klimax ( the Ekos SE..an arm i am not particularly fond of ) was easily superior sounding to the old Jelco sourced arm on the Majik. ( I have not done this ’AB’ with the newer Krane arm). 4) the cartridge on the Majik arm..a Linn Kandid, was not really a great match for the Majik arm.
So, in this example, the Linn hierarchy was very easily heard to be correct, even though i know you would like that not to be the case.
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If we take the premise that source first is of primary importance in our systems, it would seem that the order for that would be 1) master tapes, 2) vinyl..and the best vinyl recordings via either the ‘One step’ process or Direct to Disc recordings and lastly 3) Digital..
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@viber6 Great post. There are indeed a number of variables that seem to be misunderstood, or entirely not contemplated, by technical audio pros when it comes to the sound and experience of the musician. Musicians tend to have a certain sound in their head along with striving to get that sound from their instruments. The better ones, IME, are able to well reproduce that with regards to the instruments they pick.
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My experience with tape has really impressed upon me how far vinyl and particularly digital has still to go! I suspect once Jay hears a great tape player ( I’m talking of Studer A820 level-and I’m not sure that Oz has anything like that??) then he will most likely be a bit gob smacked, I know i was!
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Having heard the large Stromtank model, I can say that it truly does work well and that in the right circumstance would be a serious upgrade. The question should be not whether there are DIY options to the Stromtank ( which may cost less to make, but probably won't have the durability or the manufacturer behind it), but whether the electrical system that you currently employ warrants these devices. Fremer recently did a major upgrade of his electrical service, which IMO would be more important overall than adding any of these battery devices ( specially if you own larger ss amps).
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Having dedicated lines is just the start of upgrading your power supply. One has to look at the quality of the cable from the street transformer, make sure the street transformer is up to the task ( most times there are upgrade options for this, and connection options that are newer), an upgraded panel at the house and in home wiring upgrades, all of which make a big improvement, IME. ( and as MF also found out!)
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I have been to Jim’s room and listened to his ’small’ Triolon’s. The Acapella’s are either a speaker that you lust after, or they are a speaker that leaves you cold.
Personally, they do nothing for me, but I do understand the appeal.
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IMHO "if everything sounds the same" with a highly musical system, then something is very wrong. Usually, the front end is the reason that so many folks make this statement and a revision of the front end ( or an addition to) is required. The choice of software and the genre that the listener is using can also be a factor.
There are so many genres and styles in music that it is usually a great option to explore what is out there. IME, listening to just the best sounding recordings can lead to ’music fatigue’...even though as a’philes we are all guilty of this. It really is too bad that there are so few superb sounding and musical sounding releases (relatively).
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I have spoken to Alon on a couple of occasions. He definitely is involved in the design of the speakers in regards to its overall 'voicing'. Alon once told me that the S series was for those who needed a more bass inflected sound whereas the Q series ( at the time) was for those who liked a more refined bass sound with a little more resolution, but less output. This is where I also feel the main differences lie between the S line and his older Q line.
Not sure why folks think Keithr is a Magico hater, just because someone doesn't happen to adore a speaker line doesn't make them into a hater, IMHO.
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