2. analog
  3. 1151458982

My digital front end outdoes my analog.....

For the first time ever my analog setup is being outdone by my digital front end. The equipment: digital-MF Trivista SACD
analog-Thorens TD-125 w/Rabco SL8E linear tracking arm/Grado Master reference (4.0mv) YS Audio Concerto plus with Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7's. The sound: Overall fairly similar with that usual superior analog HF response. The image and seperation are way better on the CDP, this is my biggest issue. Better, but less so, are bass response and dynamics on the CDP as well. I love vinyl and always have and will. The tonearm is set up great and the thing tracks perfect. VTA perfect. I have it only two feet from the left speaker and it doesn't even think of feeding back. I can jump on the floor and the woofers don't move so it is so well isolated. The table/arm seem fine. Here are problems I see:
1)Lower end phono pre (so what do I need to spend)
2)Rewire TT from cart to interconnect as the tonearm is 30 years old
3)As a passive line stage user I need a very low Z ballsier phono stage. The current unit is 54db gain with an output impedence of 1000 ohms. The Trivista CDP's output impedence is 50 ohms (this could be the bass issue since I use a passive linestage)

Vinyl will never have the place for me it once did since so few new releases are on LP. I have most of the vinyl and out of print vinyl not on or never released on CD that I desire to own (based on what I like)
I do love playing with vinyl and shopping and finding it as well. Thoughts welcome-thanks in advance

ET
electroid

Showing 9 responses by electroid

electroid OP
283 posts
 
To Nsgarch -thanks for the reply. You wrote: The cartridge is a hi-output, moving iron device hardly in the same league as your MF player, and God-knows what kind of ancient tonearm cable is coming out of your Thorens, which is no doubt badly in need of a new idler wheel to keep wow and flutter within bounds.

The tonearm has RCA outs of its own which are not part of the Thorens which is belt drive with a new belt. As you can see in my post my issue is mostly image and soudstage and less so the bass. The passive linestage is probably the reason on the bass issue. I have a VPI cleaner and about 800 records. I guess there is no majic pre for $2K and a cable upgrade from cart to pre that will make me happy. The wood body Grado is $800 retail but from a former MC rig I know thats where I want to be. I just couldn't find a pre with enough gain and output to support my passive linestage which is the best thing with my Trivista. Maybe I should try the Trivista phono pre.... anybody have one?

ET
electroid OP
283 posts
 
Thanks everyone. I need to reclearify some points: I didn't use good grammer but MC is where I want to be, I prefer it to MM. With a passive linestage I need 2.5v out of the phono pre and couldn't find one with enough gain to give me that. My current 4.0mv + 54db gain gets me close. Still looking for recs on how to achieve my needed output(esp w/MC). I got my Trivista new for $2682 as an accomodation while in the biz otherwise I couldn't afford it.

ET
electroid OP
283 posts
 
My Grado is 4.0 mv (its a wood body hi output master) as the tag that came with it states. It does not overdrive the Concerto. In fact as my original post states fidelity overall is similar w/ a slight edge in the HF area going to the vinyl rig. The CDP output is higher and has a bit more slam (better dynamics and bass which I attribute to its 50 ohm output impedence and slightly higher output overall) I would be happy if the image and soundstage were even almost as good, it's not. I think I will rewire the Rabco and bypass its tonearm connector as another Rabco owner did w/good result and then try better phono stages. I used someone I know and respect to help with the math between cart out & phono stage gain to get my desired final out before my passive linestage. He suggested 60db gain, I came close at 54 because I couldn't find something with 60 (other than a Wright) that I could afford at the time. Thanks again to everyone. I would like to add this was never meant to be a vinyl vs digital thread, rather I was soliciting tips for improved results with my vinyl setup. Clearly there is a gap in total retail dollars between the two in my system. I still haven't heard anyone suggest a particular phono stage with high gain/output for me to try.
electroid OP
283 posts
 
In response to Jyprez thanks for bringing up that point. I did a lot of comparing. I used the same title on vinyl and CD as well as other recordings and one thing is always the same. The image is inferior on the vinyl rig and the HF is slightly nicer(more natural) on the vinyl rig. My other point holds true too in terms of bass and dynamic range being better on the CD rig.

ET
electroid OP
283 posts
 
To Dan Ed - I got the Trivista for $2682 brand new as an accomodation whilst in the business. As a music lover how can vinyl hold the same place in anyones heart since only 1% or so of new releases are on vinyl. I love old and new stuff but I have almost every vinyl recording that I want or will ever want(except those not yet made) . I have two friends that own record stores and I have been collecting for over 25 years. I asked for phono pre recommendations and have yet to recieve one. It has to have a ton of gain as I will not every use an active linestage again(famous last words)I am starting the rewire project for tha arm which terminates with its own RCS'a on the arm. I like you don't care about the digital analog debate either.

ET
electroid OP
283 posts
 
NsGarch- you wrote: ET, don't take my word for it; just look up the MC vs. MM gain specifications for any preamp with a built-in MM/MC phono section, or any phono preamp that accomodates both MM and MC, and you will see what I'm talking about.

But I'm using a passive linestage! This changes everything. I do need tons of gain even with my high output MM.

ET
electroid OP
283 posts
 
I don't care much for SACD and have only 15-20 discs. Don't get me wrong it does sound better than the same title on redbook its just that so little of it appeals to me titlewise. I bought the player for its superior redbook playback. My favorite sonding recordings on CD have a top ten where there are only 2 SACD's. I prefer good/creative engineering to slighlty better fidelity anyday. I tried the buy some of the same releases I have in vinyl/redbook etc. on SACD, Mostly a waste IMO, Kind of Blue is still best on vinyl by a mile to my ears. I got a rec for a phono pre with appropriate gain but its a $500 pre. I have always auditioned gear before buying and will start that soon. I do want to improve my vinyl playback, especially image/soundstage.....this is why I started the post. Thanks for your input!

ET
electroid OP
283 posts
 
Thanks everyone, the truth hurts sometimes. I don't have a limitless budget or even $5K. I shoulda bought a VPI or a Clearaudio when I was a dealer. As to this :

my words: I prefer good/creative engineering to slighlty better fidelity anyday.

reply: A lot of good, creative engineering has been applied to LP playback components since yours were designed. The result is not "slightly" better fidelity, it is massively better fidelity.

I meant this regarding comparing any given recording to another one-nothing related to gear.

Soooo thanks everyone again for your input. I will report on using a better phono pre as I can borrow these from where I worked.

ET
electroid OP
283 posts
 
No, I have all the "old" vinyl I want. I had two friends with stores. I can't think of an "old" title I want. I will buy new vinyl I like/want when it is released but we won't have any need to "fight" or compete for that(hopefully). No loss or gain for anyone. I wish everyone the best of luck in trying to find their favorite old out of print vinyl. I'm suprised how adversarial this thread has been to some people when I was only looking to solicit help to improve my analog fidelity.

ET

Last nights vinyl playlist:

Gateway - "II" - ECM
Big Brother & The Holding Company- "S/T" - Vanguard
Steve Khan- "Blades" -Passport
"Where Fortune Smiles"-McLaughlin,Holland,Surman et al-Dawn
Philip Catherine - "Nairam" - WB
Bill Connors - "Of Mist and Melting" -ECM
Miles Davis - "Water Babies" -Col
CCR- "Cosmos Factory" - Fantasy
More to discover