Wow, good thread Doug. Coming up with this topic was probably like building our systems. Simple yet quite elusive. I have to add that there have been many excellent points. As others have mentioned, when someone mentions a system is "musical", i think that most of us picture something that is slightly warm and euphonic while "detailed" or "acurate" comes across as being slightly lean and dry sounding with a slight tilt upwards in tonal balance. In reality, a "musical" system is all of the above and a combination of the two AS the recording calls for it.
Live performances are "live" because they have all of the detail, "zing", pace, warmth, "air", "space", etc.. that the instruments, players and hall are capable of. Nothing is hidden or softened ( euphony ) or highlighted ( detailed ) any moreso than what was actually played and the acoustics of the hall presented to you. As to comments about the sounds of specific halls or venues, that is SOMEWHAT hogwash ( no offense intended to anyone ). Just as the acoustics in your room vary from sweet spot to the corners to slightly off center, so will the acoustics or "sound" of the hall. Due to the perceptions of direct vs reflected sounds, two people could have different takes on the very same performance. Changing seating arrangment would alter the ratios of direct to reflected sound and could further complicate the differences between what they heard. Certain notes, frequency ranges or sections of the performers might be highlighted or lost in the mix. Due to the various direct / reflected ratios and how sound works, this would alter our perceptions of tonal balance, harmonic structure, definition & impact, etc.. In case part of this reminds you of an advertisement for Bose 901's, it might give you some idea as to how / why Dr. Bose came up with his theories. While they DO have validity, they lack thoughtfulness in terms of execution and quality of components.
As to what makes a system "musical", i think it is one that is hard to describe. We have all heard systems that sounded well balanced, offered excellent detail without sounding harsh, were full bodied without sounding bloated, had a wide soundstage, imaged well, etc... but STILL sounded like "2 dimensional stereo". The "magic" or "depth" just wasn't there. Quite honestly, i think that this is the VAST majority of systems out there. This includes a couple that i own too, so don't think that i'm picking on everyone else and excluding myself. Like i said, coming up with a TRULY "musical" system is pretty elusive and something that i think that most of us are still working on.
One of the things that i notice about "musical" systems is that the sound appears "seamless" and seems to "float". Nothing calls attention to itself in any special way while the sound just seems to gel before you. You don't even THINK about speakers or where they are. Spatial properties and "air" are very prevalent in systems like this, giving the appearance of increased height, width and depth that you get from the natural reverb of a hall. The sound seems to project itself away from the speakers, making the entire room part of the "soundstage". Evidence of this is being able to go into an adjoining room and "feel" that the performers are right next door. You get the same impression when you leave the main hall where the event is taking place to make use of the bathroom, refill your cocktails at the back or side bar, etc... Your not really "there" anymore but the presence of being "there" is still quite strong. With a good system, you get these impressions even though the volume level is not loud per se.
Timbral balance and harmonic structure also play KEY roles in achieving this effect. After all, having notes that ring or fall off too quickly is what gives our systems the "bloated" or "dry" characteristics that they might suffer from. These characteristics also give us cues as to instrument placement and the overall "pace" of the music. I think that this is a place that most systems fail miserably in.
I also USED to believe that much of what made a "musical" system "musical" was speaker based. While i still believe that this DOES play a key role in the sound due to radiation pattern and room loading, i had to change my mind as of last night. Once again, i ended up re-arranging components in one of my systems and stumbled across something that was quite eye / ear opening and pleasant to say the least. It made me COMPLETELY change my outlook on a few things but further instilled in me the need to experiment within the system if one is truly seeking optimum results. Once again i have to say, you may never know what an individual component or system is capable of until you've truly tried quite a few different combinations. Quite honestly, i've had these components for a while now and never tried them in the configuration that i have them now. It's been my loss too. Then again, that is fodder for another thread if we're going to stay on topic here.
Kudo's to all who contribute to this forum, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences and good listening to all who frequent this site. Sean
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Live performances are "live" because they have all of the detail, "zing", pace, warmth, "air", "space", etc.. that the instruments, players and hall are capable of. Nothing is hidden or softened ( euphony ) or highlighted ( detailed ) any moreso than what was actually played and the acoustics of the hall presented to you. As to comments about the sounds of specific halls or venues, that is SOMEWHAT hogwash ( no offense intended to anyone ). Just as the acoustics in your room vary from sweet spot to the corners to slightly off center, so will the acoustics or "sound" of the hall. Due to the perceptions of direct vs reflected sounds, two people could have different takes on the very same performance. Changing seating arrangment would alter the ratios of direct to reflected sound and could further complicate the differences between what they heard. Certain notes, frequency ranges or sections of the performers might be highlighted or lost in the mix. Due to the various direct / reflected ratios and how sound works, this would alter our perceptions of tonal balance, harmonic structure, definition & impact, etc.. In case part of this reminds you of an advertisement for Bose 901's, it might give you some idea as to how / why Dr. Bose came up with his theories. While they DO have validity, they lack thoughtfulness in terms of execution and quality of components.
As to what makes a system "musical", i think it is one that is hard to describe. We have all heard systems that sounded well balanced, offered excellent detail without sounding harsh, were full bodied without sounding bloated, had a wide soundstage, imaged well, etc... but STILL sounded like "2 dimensional stereo". The "magic" or "depth" just wasn't there. Quite honestly, i think that this is the VAST majority of systems out there. This includes a couple that i own too, so don't think that i'm picking on everyone else and excluding myself. Like i said, coming up with a TRULY "musical" system is pretty elusive and something that i think that most of us are still working on.
One of the things that i notice about "musical" systems is that the sound appears "seamless" and seems to "float". Nothing calls attention to itself in any special way while the sound just seems to gel before you. You don't even THINK about speakers or where they are. Spatial properties and "air" are very prevalent in systems like this, giving the appearance of increased height, width and depth that you get from the natural reverb of a hall. The sound seems to project itself away from the speakers, making the entire room part of the "soundstage". Evidence of this is being able to go into an adjoining room and "feel" that the performers are right next door. You get the same impression when you leave the main hall where the event is taking place to make use of the bathroom, refill your cocktails at the back or side bar, etc... Your not really "there" anymore but the presence of being "there" is still quite strong. With a good system, you get these impressions even though the volume level is not loud per se.
Timbral balance and harmonic structure also play KEY roles in achieving this effect. After all, having notes that ring or fall off too quickly is what gives our systems the "bloated" or "dry" characteristics that they might suffer from. These characteristics also give us cues as to instrument placement and the overall "pace" of the music. I think that this is a place that most systems fail miserably in.
I also USED to believe that much of what made a "musical" system "musical" was speaker based. While i still believe that this DOES play a key role in the sound due to radiation pattern and room loading, i had to change my mind as of last night. Once again, i ended up re-arranging components in one of my systems and stumbled across something that was quite eye / ear opening and pleasant to say the least. It made me COMPLETELY change my outlook on a few things but further instilled in me the need to experiment within the system if one is truly seeking optimum results. Once again i have to say, you may never know what an individual component or system is capable of until you've truly tried quite a few different combinations. Quite honestly, i've had these components for a while now and never tried them in the configuration that i have them now. It's been my loss too. Then again, that is fodder for another thread if we're going to stay on topic here.
Kudo's to all who contribute to this forum, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences and good listening to all who frequent this site. Sean
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