it is a perhaps rather overdue, but i wanted to post a follow-up to what i had promised several weeks back, comparing the 005 to the weiss 501 sonically
my time trying to do the comparison was interspersed with some initial confusion over what i was hearing as i tried to make a clean comparison and derive solid conclusions, and then was ’interrupted’ with an east coast trip, and then, another ’break’ in my unexpectedly getting a different set of speakers and needing to dial in subs for them, all of which werein effect ’distractions’ from this specific task
at this point, i’m confident i have clear observations/conclusions, and have confirmed these pre and post trips and by also going back also to the older speaker/amp setup to double check, and further, by using different weiss inputs (lan and usb) and also compared both sets of outputs (xlr and rca) on both units
one thing that made things a little difficult and confusing at the outset in this comparison is that, while both the weiss and the 005 have variable volume, they were not exactly well synced --as the increments on both are 0.5 db per step, but they always seemed a bit off in perceived loudness - ultimately, i used the ol’ voltmeter-at-the-speaker posts method, using several test tones, to set properly equal volumes, 005 set at -0.5 db and the weiss at -3.5 db, as a spot on match
so these comments are only about the sonic differences i could discern, the weiss has a host of dsp features, parametric eq, bass/room eq, de-essing, a very long list... some i consider goofy and over the top, others are very useful (e.g., room mode management, para eq) - but my comments are with all these features OFF and the 005 using its slow filter (i think its best sound) -- three main observations, perhaps somewhat inter-related to a degree...
1) fairly easily noticeable is that weiss has slightly leaner midbass and the 005 has that small degree of lower midrange/midbass ’body’ or ’fattening’ (also referenced in my prior bricasti m1 comparison), and this difference gives the weiss a sense of slightly greater clarity (but not more actual detail i don’t think) - low ’true’ bass tonality, quality and weight are very equal, both outstanding
2) weiss has a somewhat deeper image and more distant central image positioning, coupled with a more dynamic presentation -- as alluded to earlier, the 005 to my ear has a slightly more closed-in quality to playing the main voice(s) and instruments in center stage, less air, more up close ’intimate’ feeling - similar to the bricasti, the weiss seems to locate the central figure(s) deeper in the soundstage yet with more specificity and clearer outlines, and then, in louder passages, the weiss would expand dynamically with more contrast - this aspect had me confused for a good while and led me to closely scrutinizing the volume settings, as louder passages seemed louder and softer passages seemed softer on the weiss -- once again, listened to on its own i would never ever say the 005 lacks dynamicism or seems compressed, with comparing a vs b the difference is noticeable and repeatable between how the 2 dacs play music
3) the weiss, like the bricasti, has a slightly more relaxed, more open, more ’analog’ presentation than the 005, this difference is again quite slight but it is there, 005 just a touch mechanical sounding, the weiss flows with a somewhat greater ease - once again i speculate this may be achieved in weiss’ oversampling (to 195khz) in the d/a conversion via the dual ess chipset - i think the bricasti is even a little more ’liquid’ than the weiss but that direct a/b is next for me, i am saying this here from admittedly unreliable sonic recollection of the m1 at this point
so overall, i think the 005 acquits itself very well, and for the price, very well indeed... the differences sonically are small, weiss a touch more open, dynamic, more fluid, but listened on its own the 005 sounds wonderful, more intimate presentation, a touch of warmth with excellent, and natural detail retrieval, imaging quality is very good (if surpassed by the more expensive dacs)
i won’t debate the relative value of the weiss, its form factor, its streaming capability, it manifold features, that is up to a specific buyer to decide what they value
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with all the chatter on this musetec piece i picked one up at a decent price to fool with, try it out
will report back with comparisons to other dacs on hand before too long
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@charles1dad @arafiq
i will get the 005 next week, will take a few weeks to sort through, develop a solid point of view... it is a used unit so no break in concerns thankfully
it was quite a re-read through this whole thread... my eyes were glazing over several times, but with breaks i made it through eventually haha
i just sold the ank 4.1 (lovely sounding, but demanded too much real estate and was only fixed output) ... that said still have several others that serve as my own references (chord stack, weiss, msb on higher end, soekris, audio gd m7, oldie modded mf trivista 21 on lower end...)
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i am interested to find out too... always fun and exciting to see if there is a true giant killer out there... (same for kinki exm1 int amp i got, but alas it arrived malfunctioning, needs repair...)
if a 3 grand musetec can hold its own against 7-8-9-10 grand well established alternatives, then it is indeed a real find and a boon to music lovers like us... other purported ones i have tried (morpheus, doge, tubador, yggy, terminator, w4s...), to my ears in my system, did not compare favorably, quite good as they are in their own price class
the direct sales model (from china makers and others) obviously has its advantages for end use purchasers when all goes right...
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agree w @sns
usb connections for music is given a (rightfully) bad name by users with regular computers sending the signal - much can be done to solve those problems, and there are now ample well made network bridges and streamers on the market that do it right, and some at a very modest cost (not to mention usb cleaners...)
other connection methods have their issues... ethernet has noise issues, i2s hardly problem free either... anyone playing in the category of multiple thousand dollar dacs owes it to themselves to get the upstream feed clean and right...
btw, my 005 came in today, so beginning to listen and try to compare and discern...
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i have not heard an 004 but in my time so far with the 005 i would say it has as much detail as any dac i have heard...others may emphasize treble more, put info more upfront, but that isn’t more detail...
what is nice about the 005 to my ear is that there is excellent detail retrieval but it is quite refined, and also, there is a fairly rich midband/midbass foundation on which the detail rests, so it doesn’t sound overly hifi, the overall presentation quite natural, treble micro details are presented in a nice holistic context, sort of what the denafrips pontus does as well, although in a less refined, more grainy resolution kind of way...
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@sns
imma gonna need some time to do some proper comparison listening... this is complicated by three factors -
1) so far i have found that there is some subtle deterioration of the sound of the 005 from using the volume attentuation feature, so need to run it at full volume for comparison purposes - thus need to use an integrated amp/passive pre to control volume of all dacs being compared
2) as the 005 doesn’t have a streaming function using ethernet feed, i am getting a second optical rendu so i can run two optically cleansed usb feeds into the various dacs so i am running apples to apples
3) at the same time, i also got a bricasti m1se in as well, and if you know that unit, there is a bewildering # of filters to choose from... so that is taking a good bit of time to sort through for which i prefer... ugh, too much choice is a ’hardship’ 😅
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interim report on my experience with the 005 - i am not done with the overall dac comparisons but think i have a reasonable fix on the 005’s sound, strengths and weaknesses, and have one comparison completed
i have spent the last week comparing it to a bricasti m1se (w mdx upgrade and lan input card) which i also bought to try, they arrived the same week ... took me a while to sort through which filter i like on the m1 (min phase 0) and then i started comparing to the 005
005 strengths (quite manifold) - detailed, transparent yet full sound, excellent rhythm n pace, jet black background, very nice tone/timbre, quite refined with no detectable grain in the treble or midrange, outstanding sibilance control, solid bass foundation and a dose of midrange/midbass ’fattening’ which i think is quite desirable
005 weaknesses (few and relatively minor) - a) onboard volume attenuation does degrade the sound noticeably (say to -20 db or more, small decrements are quite ok i think), so it is best used at full output, b) the unit, while having nice treble energy and resolution, sounds a little closed in on top (lacks a sense of ’air’ or openess), which affects the quality of its imaging, particularly perceived soundstage depth
compared to the bricasti:
1) 005 full output volume is slightly higher than the m1 despite identical stated nominal voltage ratings, so i reduced 005 output -1 db to equilibrate - listened to both rca and xlr outs, sonic impressions are consistent - ran 005 using usb in, vs m1 via lan in (which is supposed to be its best input), then used usb in on m1 also, sonic impressions unchanged
2) two main areas where i preferred the bricasti - these are subtle but obvious and reproduceable on my system on different days so i trust them as solid findings
-- the 005 presents the music more upfront, with a wide but not deep soundstage... voices/lead instruments are at the speaker plane or slightly forward, and there is a more closed in, closer-in quality to the sound, whereas the m1 portrays more at the speaker plane or slightly behind, but the soundstage extends significantly behind from there, significantly greater depth of stage with specific instruments and voices more layered longitudinally
-- while tonally not different (comparable treble/mids/bass proportionality) the m1se has a greater sense of ease and fluidity and flow whereas the 005 has a slightly (emphasize slightly) more ’uptight’, robotic/digital nature vs the m1se having more of an ’analog’ or organic feel for the lack of an even better term, decay of notes and ’atmospherics’ are better on the m1 - i can only speculate why this is... perhaps because the bricasti does onboard upsampling like the chord stack and the 005 doesn’t into its ess converters... i dunno
-- these two points are noticeable in direct comparison -- but listened to on its own, i would not say that the 005 seems closed in or robotic in the least... such is the benefit (or curse) of hearing a better piece of equipment in direct comparison on an otherwise quite resolving rig
you can check out my system... i used the maggie 3.7i’s w fuse bypass and magna risers, driven by pass int150, also tried a well modded musical fidelity a308, then an oldie carver lightstar direct ref passive xlr linestage into a smc modded mccormack dna125 power amp - digital front end is roon run on an elberoth i7 core machine, uptone etherregen and aqvox switch, feeding sonore optical rendus as roon endpoints with usb out
in summary (for now) i would say that the 005 is a really excellent dac, in the $2500-3000 price tier really really good, (i did not have the dena venus in tow anymore, but by memory i feel the 005 is more refined more organic, the venus was brighter iirc) -- the 005 comes within a sniff of stuff that is much much more expensive - the sound is superb: warm, full bodied yet nicely detailed, great speed and slam, built like a tank, and outperformed by the high dollar stuff in quite slight and subtle ways - as mentioned earlier it is best used in fixed output mode, with slow filter - it sounded more organic to me than the fast one
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@sns @charles1dad @melm
it has been fun trying this one out, the piece is a really lovely effort, and for the money, just wonderful performance, and it does let you run straight into a power amp, albeit with a very slight perceived grain at higher attenuation settings
to some of the points made
-- i agree that imaging (or the illusion of soundstage with depth etc) is very much a function of recording quality and mixing, no doubt some recordings have it in spades while others are lacking in this department
-- also agree streaming chain is super important which is why i waited and got a second opticalrendu so i could run 005 vs m1 via identical super clean usb feed, 100% apples to apples... i find that with better dacs like these, the sonic differences are subtle, how they are fed can affect how they sound
-- i can’t comment on image height per se... with my maggies and how they stand and full height ribbon tweeter, they do that very well, ’life-sized’ so to speak, if there is a difference in this specific aspect between the 005 and the m1, i could not hear it in my room
-- one can really only speculate on what drives certain sonic characteristic being heard differentially between units, obviously the produced sound is a result of everything all together, impossible to isolate specific elements (dual mono d/a or analog stages, power supply design, upsampling rates, chip vs r2r ladder and so on... certain dacs of course allow for some features like filtering, os/nos, etc to be toggled in/out, but some don’t)
-- m1 se does not have separate analog inputs, it is functionally like the 005 in it can adjust it own output level - but you cannot port a separate analog source into it/through it (as the msb can...)
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hope to report on this in a few days... same dac chips inside both right?
the weiss has been out a few years already, so probably earlier version of the sabre top converter i would guess (i am sure you guys will correct me if needed ... 😆)
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@jjss49 - Just curious what power supply you are using with the ifi streamer?
i’ve tried several upgrade ps’s for zenstream -- which i feel is essential to get it to sound as good as they say it does
[btw - the zs is not being used in my recent comparisons involving the 005.. i have the zs as an extra roon endpoint for when i want to listen to an older dacs w/oa usb in... i.e., my trusty musical fidelity trivista 21, or van alstine tube dac)]
the ifi one-step-up filtered upgrade ps works well (it actually used to be bundled with the zs when they first introduced it, but then they deleted it, swapping in a lame-o bottom of barrel swps, no doubt for cost savings) ... as does my 12v chi-fi teradak lps... but right now i am using a nicer sotm 3 rail or keces p3 2 rail ps, set on 9 volt
a nice thing about the z-s is that it can take a wide range of dc voltage inputs, anywhere from 7-12 vdc iirc
All - The more I use the 005 the more I like it. Around 4 hundred hours on it now. It mates up wonderfully with the Linn Klimax preamp & B&W 802D speakers.
yes i think i agree, the 005 brings a dose of warmth and lower mid body to the party, which the b&w can use... and the 005 treble is extended but refined, should keep those b&w metal dome tweets happy
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@charles1dad
morning to you... up early to see if rory can get his holy grail at st andrews today!!
to reply to your query, unfortunately my ank 4.1 was gone before the 005 arrived so i cannot definitively report the sonic differences from direct trial/comparison
i had my 4.1 for about 18 mos, enjoyed it immensely, it surpassed so many well regarded sub-$5000 dacs i tried over that time (audio mirror, denafrips, sonnet/metrum, schiit and so on), but over time i found i preferred a (well done) variable output dac to run straight into power amps (i barely ever listen to records anymore as my digital front end has improved), the 4.1 sounded really wonderful but as you know, it is a giant square box tall wide and deep, and i could not use upsampling as the inputs are limited to 24-96
that said, my notes on the 4.1 sonically are as follows
- rich saturated sound, very clear treble (not in the least rolled off as one might expect from a tube output dac) - i suspect one can play with this by tube rolling the 5687 output stage tubes, but mine came with excellent old stock tungsols which i did not fool with, i know from my earlier experience with dan wright’s tube gear that they are tip-top examples of that tube type
- luscious well embodied midrange with a wonderful dimensionality that great tube gear brings, very pure tone/timbre - solo piano on that thing was sooo lovely, effortless detail with weight and body, very realistic attack and decay
- bass was pretty tight pretty fast but did not plumb lowest register quite as well as the best, at the same time, there was great air and natural reverb to bass notes (think audio research reference series tube amp bass, versus pass labs solid state bass)
- the unit imaged very well, but not quite as well as the best of what i am enjoying now (chord stack, msb), i must say i have (reluctantly) become a believer in well implemented upsampling and filtering in dacs, in my experience it really restores (or embodies) the music with spatial cues, and clean resolution of more complex passages...
from memory (always a little suspect) i would venture to say that the 005 vs 4.1 -- about same in the treble (both top notch, transparent without any digititis), 005 bass more solid/deep but less tuneful, 4.1 midrange tone and body somewhat more ’magical’, soundstaging/ambient retrieval 4.1 somewhat better - how’s that for an audiophile’s word salad??... 🤣
hope that helps
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i simply don’t get why people seem to get defensive, uptight, and angry... bringing bad energy, negative mojo, to a pursuit that should be purely for enjoyment 🤷🤷♀️
this is just well intentioned information sharing among knowledgeable and dedicated hobbyists, from one person’s point of view and based on one person’s effort... no one really gives a sh*t about anyone else’s system -- i do try to communicate my thoughts with some care, in a way that does not put down anything/anyone
we are all just trying to do the best we can with what we have assembled, understand the lay of the land in terms of alternative equipment, striving improve it where possible and sensible...
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@troidelover1499
thanks, glad you found my comparisons useful, it’s fun to do, to find out these things for myself in my own system
i really don’t think most people here are being ’small’ about the 005 as you describe, though a few may be, it’s legitimately an excellent dac both in absolute terms and for the money... if you are upgrading your digital front end to this level of expense, you should definitely consider it
i became curious as some are insistent it is superior to most other more expensive, well-received dacs so i just wanted find out for myself... if that’s true how come the weiss’ totaldac’s holo’s chord’s bricasti’s msb’s emm’s aren’t going b-k? 😂
seriously though, costs in china are much lower, a direct sales model gives a tremendous cost advantage ... so it is not surprising this dac provides excellent dollar value and knocks on the door of what other pricier dacs can do
this is a thread about this particular make of dac, i think it is important to be sensitive to the fact that there are numerous happy owners here, the marketplace has grown very big for dacs given the prevalence and growth of streaming these days, lots lots of choices, and the key is to have music lovers find stuff they really enjoy
... and i will update my system page re the new speakers in due course :)
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@americanspirit
from one point of view, all this asr stuff is fine
not everyone cares about sonic excellence and are willing to pay for it, but people still want to feel good about themselves, their decisions... this asr stuff provides handy rationalization, especially for those who have a quantitative/science-oriented bent (never mind that what asr delves into is more ’pseudo-science’ actually but we will leave that be...)
i think it is fine because these people spend what little they want, feel good about it, and presumably enjoy the music - this can be looked at as an entry path into broader musical enjoyment, better quality of life as a result, which is positive
then if there is a subset of these folks who are more passionate, more discriminating, and over time, put forth the thought, effort and expense to test the ’wisdom’ that asr espouses, those folks will then undoubtedly discover its limitations and obtain much better sounding music to enjoy
silly analogy, i sometimes enjoy a little wine with dinner, but i am not a wine connoisseur, don’t care to be -- so i buy relatively inexpensive $10-20/bottles of wine marketed by some popular websites, with their claims about point-ratings, reviewer blurbs, i then enjoy that wine with everyday meals - i don’t care enough to be an expert, don’t want to invest the effort to deep dive into the topic, don't want to pay more, don't care to appreciate some minute differences, it’s just average/above average wine to sip, to accompany the good food which i consider the real centerpiece of meals - life for me goes on just fine...
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I cannot bear the claims of superiority of pseudo science over human senses.
agreed that part is distasteful, but why harp on it?
you can see via amir’s system, he is not an audiophile, he is a clever tech dude monetizing a niche, a circle of like minded folks with like minded blind spots - he can be a robin hood in his own mind with eager followers...lots of advice givers in the world with weak legs they stand on
we are much more passionate about this pursuit, in our way, different from his, it should be water off a duck’s back, so to speak
this isn’t to say that what becomes ’recommended’ by amir is necessarily bad... we all know that any piece of equipment fits into a chain, that chain has a certain level of musicality and resolving power, and of course, synergy matters ... much of it is just fine, just like my $15 zin serves its purpose for me well...
interesting, just stumbled into this from john darko
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@melm
too bad the recent entries in this thread have become such a bore
anyhow, hope you are still enjoying the 005
i suppose in sum total it is a good thing this thread has continuing participation, so that more folks coming here can learn about the dac and the good value in represents in higher end dacs
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Anyone compared the Morpheus to the Musetec?
i have had both the sonnet morpheus as well as the 005 (both now sold) but not at the same time, so audio memory is suspect at best when there is a span of time between a and b ... but with this caveat, i would say based on my recollection, the musetec is a slightly richer smoother but more closed in sounding unit, whereas the sonnet is more open better imaging but a touch grainier in the upper regions and lighter weight down below - as such, i think of the 005 as more bottom-up, and the morpheus more as a top-down sounding one... all in all i would say i preferred the 005 over the sonnet in my system (i am very sensitive to any treble or upper mid grain)
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oh yes, it is the fuse... propels components up up up the ladder of excellence!! don't miss out!! 😂🤣
sorry, couldn't resist... please don't let me deter you...
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Don’t listen to the cloth eared old bat, he’s been on the turps again, the Purple makes a great improvement.
haha - this is what is referred to as ’the pot calling the kettle black’ -- don’t want to get into a pissing match on expensive boutique fuses here so let me just say this...
use your brain, think about it, if it were so easy and effective, wouldn’t the manufacturers do this for the ’huge improvement’ gained? -- a company like musetec or sonnet cares much more about the sound of their product than a user does...
advice - buy on fully refundable basis, set up a true blind a/b with the help of a partner/friend (yes you need TWO of the same component to do this, or a clever/diy circuit switcher), and be honest on what you hear
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@melm @charles1dad
my apologies for the sidetrack on silly fuse ’upgrades’
i couldn’t resist the little jab when the subject was raised...
people can certainly spend money on whatever they want for their enjoyment!
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@chaseton
interesting result you are reporting... please tell more about how the digital feed was managed, what the rest of the system was etc etc... with dac testing and comparisons, how the streamed music input is handled matters alot
fwiw, i bought a nice used r26 just to try it, see what the fuss is about, and i would agree that for the $ it is absurdly good... particularly from the lan input (i am a roon user) - i have confidently poo-pooed the chifi brands since i started my dac journey at the start of covid, especially those from the guangzhou/shenzhen factory alley (smsl, gustard, topping, singxer, matrix and so on...) but this r26 is pretty amazing... with an effective built in streamer too...
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