Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC

@toddk31 Yes I find it sad that people cannot trust their own ears. Your example in point. KTE measures well but you sell it, nobody would sell something if it sounded good.

Goldensound has a great video about measurements.

Honestly if you learned from ASR I feel sorry for you and even sorrier if you feel you need ASR’s blessing to buy something.

I’ve seen people get roasted on ASR for buying a $120 cable.

Anyway ASR is a sad place. Amir gets on here and raves occasionally because he can’t stop people blowing ten grand or more on cables.

Well this is what you've been waiting for:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/musetec-audio-lks-audio-mh-da005-review-dac.34065/

Amir is such a total clown

@car123 Hi, What you're hearing is break-in associated noise. I had an awful time when I first installed the LKS 100.

What I suggest is plug HDMI I2s and RJ45 I2s simultaneously into the 005.

It's going to 4-5 days for the break-in to resolve itself but you can then compare the differences between HDMI and RJ45.

My LKS is a great performer now, so much so that I'm auditioning a new USB cable.

@fl_guy Amir's tests are not normal test conditions. They are Amir's test conditions. For example he couldn't even be bothered to put batteries in the remote, download the manual or the correct driver from the website.

He sees anything priced above a couple of hundred bucks as the spawn of Satan.

@toddk31 Well you got a real feeding frenzy going over at ASR, you should be very proud of yourself. However if you really are a seeker of truth and not just a smart a$$, why not break the DAC in (ASR doesn't believe in break-in) have a listen, see what you think and then for a real review send it to Goldensound.

I know it's complicated but that's how great things are achieved through transparency and honesty.

@car123 That's great I didn't know the SU6 had that feature. Good to know.

@car123 Have you got the I2s cable setup correctly? That's why I went for the LKS 100 no cable changes involved. The Sonore Digital has it's own dip switches to change cable settings.

@fl_guy FFS why are you so worried about published and ASR's measured  specs?

They do what the hell the want. Have you even listened to this DAC?

Deviation from specs is not a health hazard, and I have no confidence in Amir, he has his own agenda.

If you can't hear the difference between a $10 cable and a $1000 cable better you go back over there, because they say they cannot.

One actual fact that has arisen is that there are two versions of the 005. Checkout the pics below and note that one has what seems to be an off the shelf Amanero Board with two oscillators. Whilst the other has an Amanero Board with three oscillators. I believe the latter is Musetec's custom Amanero Board, so I surmise this is the later model.

Power board differences show 2 FETS and 4 FETS and minor capacitor changes.

I will not speculate on distortion or the reasons for it, my contributions to this thread speak for themselves. These boards are easily changed if anyone is so inclined, I can't detect any other differences.

Yours in Musetec

Ok "The ESS Hump", apparently all ESS chips have this hump and is well known throughout the industry.

Most people agree it’s inaudible but some others claim they can hear it but give no description regarding what it sounds like.

It cannot be fixed by software or firmware, it needs capacitors installed to fix it, if it needs to be fixed at all.

IMHO it’s a solution looking for a problem. Maybe the ESS 9039 new chips which were launched just a few days ago will not have this issue, they also support MQA final unwrapping too.

@melm Since you have such a good relationship with Jinbo maybe he could find out if this hump is present in the new chips. ESS has manufacturing and research facilities in China. If they don’t then this could be very much turned into a positive if Musetec could give the option of upgrading chips, at a cost of course, for those so interested.

@dbb Yes but it's your brain telling you it sounds different when the tests speak for themselves. How could one piece of wire sound different from another one? It's just impossible.

We're all scientists here so don't dispute the facts.

Jen Psaki and all her BS would get on great over there.

@kairosman I don't know why you would want to support the ASR shill. As others have mentioned he sold his Holo Spring (which had a good rating on ASR) presumably because he didn't like it, again presumably he preferred the 004 which he owned.

Now if you like something and would like to upgrade to the new model and there have been zero negative reports about the new model, then it would be logical to just buy it and enjoy it, yes?

Either on his initive or that of his master he drop ships it directly to ASR. He informed us that Musetec and Mid West Audio knew exactly what he was doing and were fine with this. Niether have commented so far.

Well he's been following this thread and must be well aware that the 005 takes 6-8 weeks to fully burn in, maybe a little more. Well that's not good enough for the shill he wants to send a cold one, which he does.

So regarding the test they are SINAD tests and better than commenting myself I refer you to Goldensound's video on testing which you can easily find on YouTube.

Secondly we have the "dreaded hump" well this is a peculiarity of all ESS chips, which to all intents and purposes cannot be heard. Now don't you logically think that one of the largest chip makers in the World don't know about this issue, and if there was a real problem they'd fix it, yes? Even Weiss use the same chips among other Hi-End brands.

Now what the shill says here and at ASR are juxtaposed. Over there he's a big hero and getting plenty of slaps on the back. Now if this was a scientific experiment he'd also send in his 004 for testing and send the 005 to Goldensound or actually listen to it himself, but it's not about logic or truth is it?

Finally @kairosman  and I don't mean to insult you here but if you can't tell the difference between the 005 and the D90SE then to be brutally honest this hobby is not for you. We are all good at somethings and not so good at others so sell the 005 and keep the D90SE and move over to ASR, because they can't or don't listen to differences either. You'll also save an absolute fortune on cables. Otherwise you'll end up like me currently auditioning a $3k USB cable.

We can go around and around chasing our tails but to be honest how many car and bike manufacturers publish HP at the crank and not the rear wheel/s.

Musetec couldn't give a monkey's what ASR thinks he's got 1.5 billion punters on his doorstep, who will listen. Truly if you haven't heard this DAC fully broken in in a decent system you are really missing out. My system isn't a cheapo but I put it in a $500k system to make sure it could run with the big boys and it did.

I'm really, really enjoying the I2s RJ45 input, best music I've ever heard.

I imagine Musetec are reviewing their options at the moment, maybe they will do their own tests. ASR is not a licensed testing agency and in the real world their comments hold no credence.

As was said earlier if a DAC with poor test results sounded good then that's ASR completely discredited.

I believe @sns was one of the first buyers so we could compare his serial number with someone who has bought this month. We'd have a very good indication of customer satisfaction. There are zero complaints on the internet about the 005.

Every one of those sales was trouble free and the customers happy with their purchase. Bar two or three who preferred something else IIRC.

All on ASR have been brainwashed into believing that only measurements matter and ALL cables, regardless of price sound the same.

Now even those with a fraction of a brain cell can agree that's not correct, unless you have genuine hearing difficulties.

ASR is flawed and a fraud. Yes different performance results were published by Musetec but ASR is not a legal entity, it's a hobbyists site for the delusional that want to call themselves scientists and engineers and doctors.

So if you want a 005 it needs 6-8 weeks to break in, whether you believe in that or not.

@curiousjim Silver plating wires and transformer windings helps to mitigate "Skin Effect" where the current tends to travel around the surface of the wire.

Whether or not silver plating is better than a solid silver transformer is better is questionable, but it's a lot cheaper.

WireWorld make a copper cable, a silver plated and solid silver cable.

@yage All very well and good but what happens if a poorly measuring DAC with off the charts jitter and every other negative factor performs with the voice of angels in blind listening tests? Would ASR then be recognized as the clown factory that it is?

I prefer to take my advice from discussions on forums from people I can trust. Thanks to melm, dbb and sns I took a chance on the 005 and it's paid off big time.

The 005 is unique like most Chinese DACs because you can't demo them, but you can return them if you don't like them.

Most of my other equipment I auditioned over periods of time at my dealer's studio. Having a great dealer is very important. Someone who can recommend and even give you gear on loan.

Page 20 & 21 of ASR is going completely against what you profess. No room for anything but tests. The tragedy is they are missing such beauty and refinement, but I guess their beauty lays in graphs and double blind tests.

Are any of ASR actually married? Their chicks must be right munters.

@batvac2

| This is a peculiarity of all ESS chips, which cannot be heard

At minimum the continued presence of the hump represents inadequate engineering skills and testing equipment. Audio companies using this chip - including Weiss - have engineered it completely away.

Well maybe engineering the hump away is what gives Weiss their colored house sound and virtually every Weiss DAC review will mention how Weiss compartmentalizes the music, but I guess you’ve got that covered because every DAC sounds the same regardless.

BTW I’ve auditioned every Weiss DAC from 301 to Medea

@dbb No I haven't but I guess it'll work off the USB cable power alone and it comes with a 2.1mm connector to USB that you can plug into any USB outlet or phone charger. Believe me it's worth getting it.

I could never go back to USB into the 005 again. You know when your system sounds better as it's getting dark outside? Well mine sounds like that all the time now. Not a scientific explanation I know.

Ok let's lighten things up a bit and enjoy the music.....hey why not?

Here's 3 tests for streaming/server or whatever, they are not easy to produce perfectly digitally so give them a try.

1. Carpenters, Ticket to Ride at 30s single cymbal hit, can you hear it?

2. Manfred Mann, Blinded by the Light at 2m20s does it sound really congested?

3. The Rolling Stones, Indian Girl intro quite complicated , can you hear everything?

@boxer12 Welcome aboard! We are all sure you'll love this DAC. Hard bit is getting past the break-in stage, but once you get there you'll realise why we're all very committed to this DAC.

It's enabled me to spend lots more on cables

@yyzsantabarbara I can't hear any echo and am reasonably sure this album was never officially released as a SACD or 96/196khz.

@yyzsantabarbara At 2.20 and later I find the PMc's vocals extended, sustained but what I hear I can't really call an echo.

However the electric guitar I'm sure is using an echo pedal.

@boxer12 @americanspirit You need to run your system 24hrs on a loop or play an internet radio station with your preamp muted or your poweramp switched off.

It’s going to take 500-800 hours or thereabouts to break-in, but it’s really worth it.

@turcoda Looks like ASR's big plan to scupper the 005 has failed even if you were the only one who couldn't figure out how to work it.

@kairosman That is correct. The best setting (as per manual) for DSD is BW06 and for PCM it's BW01.

Adjust higher if they don't lock or drop out or you would like a less detailed warmer sound.

@americanspirit Thank you for your positive comments, but you have only got a taste of what the 005 is capable of. It'll most likely start sounding really bad then good then bad until it finally fully breaks in.

Switch the 005 completely off and unplug it every few days to drain the capacitors, this will help the break-in.

As you and sns said this DAC is way out there in the value stakes, I really don't know what to compare it to.

I heard the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC with streaming card and Mola Mola integrated amp today with Dynaudio speakers.

Honestly it didn't come close to the naturalness of the 005, it was harsh and bright and a much smaller soundstage. That of course is compared to the 005, compared to other DACs it probably sounds ok.

@americanspirit

Updating the firmware is not required.

If you are using Windows, I would recommend you use the Musetec Windows USB driver from their website, because some people have had issues with the generic Windows driver. http://www.mu-sound.com/service.html

Apple and Linux don’t require additional drivers.

Also I would suggest you don’t use the power cable that comes with the 005, it looks custom but you can do much better.

@boxer12 It's the bottom USB out to your DAC. IFI don't say what OS they are using. If it's windows you need an ASIO driver.

@melm Try taking WW for a spin I've been very surprised how good their Ethernet cables are.

I never paid WW any attention before because I thought they were like AQ,

I don't like the way AQ market cables with dozens of different series, then upon that they have different editions.

WW are IMO in a higher league and their service is fantastic. Call Larry at WW and they'll cut custom length cables and you'll usually get them the next day.

WW will give you sparkle I'm sure, AQ Diamond Ethernet is dark.

Never tried WW or AQ USB cables.

@troidelover1499 Yes I totally agree with you it's very difficult to eat your own words when you find out that your darling DAC, which you have sung the praises of all over this forum, takes a knockout punch from an unknown $3k contender.

There are many reviews of the Weiss DACs on the internet and despite Daniel Weiss' white paper regarding his digital volume control being as good or better than the best pre-amps, it has been proven to be grossly inaccurate.

I have compared the Musetec 005 extensively in very high end systems, with pre-amps, against the MEDUS (I incorrectly stated MEDEA in my previous post).

The Medus is a $20k plus DAC and barely keeps up with the 005. The 005 buries it with it's massive soundstage and fabulous reproduction of percussion.

So if I'd paid $10k for a Weiss and $11k for a Bricasti (no comment, I've not heard it) I'd be shooting myself in the foot financially to say the 005 is better, at least in the value stakes.

So maybe you think I'm a tosser but most people who have heard the 005 will unanimously echo my remarks. So if you are genuinely looking for a DAC check out the 005, you'd be a fool not to 😀

@yyzsantabarbara Apologies for the late reply regarding Coda/Benchmark pre-amps, I haven't heard either but I think I'm correct in saying the Coda is active and the Benchmark is a linestage. Both are very well regarded but I would expect the Coda to sound better, not withstanding it's double the price.

I assume you're getting a custom power supply made for it. In the meantime why don't you try out a SR Purple fuse, they've had dramatic effects in my pre-amps.

Your headphone setup uses a Benchmark DAC, if I remember correctly. This DAC does have a very high voltage output, this could be giving a higher resolution signal?

@fl_guy I bought from Shenzhen Audio too, just a plain white box, can't remember about the plastic!

Currently I'm using a 0.5m WW Starlight RJ45 Ethernet cable from the LKS 100 to the 005 for I2s. I've tried using the WW Starlight Platinum but it's too detailed in a hard/harsh type of way.

The Platinum is very well suited for your Ethernet between your optical device and your streamer/source. I guess I2s doesn't like solid silver cables.

Hi, Has anyone received their LKS 100 yet?

I have experimented quite a lot and RJ45 I2s is the best input on the 005.

It will need about a week to burn-in along with the LKS 100.

I can wholeheartedly recommend using WW Starlight 8 (Red) Ethernet for the I2s cable but it too needs burn-in time, so use it as an Ethernet cable for a week to allow it to break-in. I2s is only 300mv.

Once you're off the ground be interested to hear what other cables you get good results with. The I2s cable should be 0.5m or less. I tried a 0.2m cable and didn't like it, maybe it needs more burn-in. I will revisit it later.

PS Audio recommends 0.5m and I believe they are most correct in this matter, so far anyway.

Don't forget to disable PIN 1 in your USB cable, power is not required, put a small strip of electrical tape over it, better sound quality.

@budkine I'm using a Plixir 5vdc 4 amp power supply with a good ac mains power cord. I also use the Plixir Reference dc cable.

The sound is significantly better than USB. I recommend a 0.5m Wireworld Starlight 8 Red, Ethernet RJ45 cable.

Even using your PC I believe you'll get a good result.

@car123 Thank you, it's also very convenient having the I2s HDMI free to connect an Oppo or PS Audio I2s. I'll get my Oppo modded soon.

@erniejade This first thing you will realise is the huge soundstage, the 005 projects a much bigger soundstage than many much more expensive DACs.

Expect a 6-8 week burn-in.

The 005 IMO is uncoloured and transparent so if your system is warm or cold it will reveal those characteristics. For example you use WW cables, they are very revealing, not wrong but revealing.

I wholeheartedly recommend the 005 and many will tell you in this thread the 005 never gets shown up by putting it with expensive components and cables.

It just ups it's game and stays the course.

Melm have a listen to the bass on "The Fish" from the YES, Fragile album.

@klh007 

In relation to volume control methods, the Leedh software solution has amazed the reviewers who can't believe it is more transparent than hardware solutions, Lumin is one company using Leedh.

I've heard the Leedh volume control extensively on Lumins and while it is probably the best non-preamplifier solution, it cannot compete with a reference pre-amp.

I know they cost ridiculous money but there are reasons for it.

@sns Have you ever considered this?

https://intona.eu/en/products/7055-b

This damn dac just wants to lead me down this path where everything feeding it needs to be SOTA.

Yes it will and it can, with ease. I am currently testing a SOtM USB Ultra with the 005.

However to get the most out of digital you need a master clock, I believe that's what you're missing.

@sns Yes, I agree that if someone is looking for an all in one box solution then the Bricasti is an option together with the Aurender A20, Mark Levinson, Mola Mola etc.

But we all know that having at least a separate preamp will sound better. The 005 responds very well to high end preamps, which you would think the opposite would be true because high end preamps will reveal all the warts in downstream equipment.

I have auditioned the 005 with some of the best SS preamps in the World, including my own SMC-VRE-1 (out of production), Vitus Audio SL-103 ($30k) and Viola Sonata ($40k).

I have also auditioned among others Constellation, Simaudio and Solution but found the above preferable.

The 005 was never found lacking in any respect which is usually the case with a lower quality product.

It's definitely not "organic" or vinyl or tube like, it's real, warts and all. When did you ever come from a concert and say "Wow, that was really organic!", Never.

Instead it will faithfully reproduce Jagger's Souf London accent and Karen Carpenter's Drawl. Plus razor sharp electric guitar and the greatest cymbal reproduction from ant DAC I've ever heard. Listen to Cream's Toad or some Hi-Rez Jazz.

Getting back to the Bricasti, it's x8 oversampling which I believe will inhibit the use of HQ Player, which I understand to be the best CA program. Oversampling is not  a purist audio feature either. Old school believes the original signal must remain so.

Anyway many people will love the pseudo ML design and built by some ex ML employees, and of course it's American!

I first heard the word organic when Meridian launched their 500 series IIRC at the Earl's Court, London HIFI show in the late '80s. It was a truly beautiful if not cloured sound they produced. The first real assault on vinyl if you like. I was so enamoured I bought a CD player, can't remember which one. 506 maybe?

Anyways since then I have associated organic with a coloured and unrealistic sound. The sound of tubes or old radios or receivers, if you like. These sounds may be very pleasing and even romantic but they are not accurate, that's why I prefer solid state. However you listen to what you prefer whether it's a syrupy Chet Baker or electronic music.

But please understand music can never sound organic, it's a word that you have been accustomed and conditioned to, but it really doesn't exist.

Maybe consider harmonious, everything playing in harmony, although if harmony exists the opposite must exist too which is found in the anti harmonic compositions of Zappa, Floyd and many classical composers.

What I'm trying to say is that "organic" cannot reproduce anti harmonic compositions, that's why we should strive for neutrality and accuracy.

The 005 is not perfect but for $3k it comes pretty darn close.

@balja 

Has anyone tried to connect a Schaffner filter (FN9260-1-06) to the power cable for 005? In my system, a big improvement in the image of the stage and I finally hear what the real recording sounds like. It is not expensive and the production of a short reduction is simple. Someone try it to confirm it. By the way, I also replaced the original power cord with a silver "Supra"

I have noticed that both the Bricasti and Weiss DACs use such a device. While I try to stay away from any sort of "purifiers", I recently moved my rig around and I couldn't get my power cable into the 005 because a part of my rack was blocking it.

So I after looking around I tried this which is , I believe, essentially the same as you suggested with the advantage of being able to swap it around. It also comes in three different sizes. I bought the Furutech Flow-15 Plus.

I've found it significantly lowers the noise floor on the 005.

https://www.furutech.com/products/power-distributors-filters/in-line-power-filter-bulk-cables/

@sns The Flux 50 NCF I believe is for a full system or power amps but there would be nothing lost to try it with the 005.

I haven't noticed anything regarding "voicing" altered in any way with the exception that lowering the noise floor is letting more natural detail through by getting out of the way of the noise, so it hasn't created analytical detail in any way.

I'd be very interested to know your results because the Flux 50 is quite expensive.

@sns @boxer12 Thank you both for taking the time out to indulge me and try the Furutech Flux 50 with your 005's.

Obviously a mixed bag also including @steakster 's results. The Flux 50 is really meant for high current or full system applications so I guess it's overkill for a single component.

I'm very happy and pleasantly surprised with the Furutech Flow-15 Plus which is just an EMI filter, I believe, without NCF materials and meant to be used with single components.

I will be swapping it around in the next few weeks to see what results it gives me with my pre-amp and server.

Less Loss make similar devices but much more expensive.

@sns Yes I use a Plixir 1000W balanced power conditioner for everything except my power amp, which goes directly into the wall.

Yes the Furutech IEC inlets I would certainly consider, even over the Schaffner's but I don't believe Furutech make them with inbuilt fuseholders. That's another reason I bought the Furutech Flow-15 Plus.

It's a shame because the 005 uses a Furutech IEC fused inlet as standard.

I'm glad to hear that you are finally coming to peace with your 005. Believe me there isn't anything significantly better under $20k or more that I know of, and everyone seems to be realising as of late, how much more of everything good pre-amps can extract from the 005.

I also look forward to your report on the Muon if you decide to get one, it certainly looks interesting and maybe better value than an expensive Ethernet cable.

The 'tards over at ASR are in a feeding frenzy picking over the bones of a Chord Dave.

Conclusions
I always considered Chord products excellent but over designed. I now have to change that. The DAVE DAC does not perform anywhere near where it should. It is bested easily by DACs at $150. Its headphone amplifier is good but no match for higher powered units. It is a pretty DAC but usability is left behind. In my listening tests, I could detect no attribute that made it sound special. No, this is not a controlled test but neither are the reports to the contrary! Regardless, company's claim to fame is exacting implementation with concepts such as -300 dB and noise modulation mattering. So what is up then with my measurements?

There is absolutely no benefit whatsoever in promoting the 005 over the Weiss, I can hear the howling and gnashing of teeth if just a hint was mentioned.

I have compared the 501, 502 and the Medea to the 005 and I would choose the 005 in every case, not priced on cost alone.

Immediately putting a fully burned in 005 up against either of the above produces a monstrous soundstage which the Weisses are just not capable of.

The system I compared them in, over several days, consisted of Vitus pre-amp and monoblocks (103s) and Eggleston Works Savoy and Sondheim Speakers, fed by an Aurender N30.

Only the Meadea could come close to the 005. Weiss is coloured and compartmentalizes the music, whereas the 005 is far more dynamic and rhythmic. Maybe I give a point to Weiss on vocals but only slightly. Otherwise it’s hands down to the 005.

Regarding analogue or vinyl sounding when is everyone going to give up on this??? Music hasn’t been mastered in analogue for close to forty years and MOFI has just been caught using DSD masters to create vinyl...lol.

The 501 uses ESS 9018K2M dac-chips where the 005 uses 9038’s. There is no information on Weiss’ website just says they use the latest chips.

Oh Weiss does offer vinyl mode if digital is too harsh for you.

I’ll keep the 005. Thanks for the review.