Marakanetz: Thanks for the Interesting suggestion...seems to have the right specs too. What do you do about stylus replacement? How well does the stylus wear? |
Thanks Inna and Audiofeil, for the reality check.....My system could be called 'mid-fi', which is why I'm not sure how to prioritize my upgrades.
Amp is Rogue Cronus tube integrated (with ss phono for MM only). Speakers Stirling LS3/5a, cables Kimber Monocle XL.
I had thought of a Pro-ject phono tube box SE as a first step upgrade option, or (much bigger bucks), invest in a Well-tempered, VPI Classic or Linn LP12 turntable, and keep the Shure and everything else as is.
What would you do? |
My music and sound preferences: Mahler, Bruckner, Elgar, Fifties torch singers, Brazilian bossanova. British-style sound preferred. Musical, not etched. Good large ensemble instrumental separation. |
My music and sound preferences: Mahler, Bruckner, Elgar, Fifties torch singers, Brazilian bossanova. British-style sound preferred. Musical, not etched. Good large ensemble instrumental separation. |
It's good to get opinions as to the wisdom of further investment. I was wondering how close I am to diminishing returns and you guys have helped clarify that. The phono amp investment seems to be a path I can take. I like this system a lot, so maybe pristine vinyl purchases might be a better investment!
Stirling has recently released AB-2 bass units to match their LS3/5as. They are not yet available in the US but can be ordered from the UK. That might be a reasonably sensible way to increase the scale of my sound in my smallish listening room? |
Phasecorrect, thanks for affirming my choices so far. Clean vinyl ....yum!
Your point about subs interests me. The matching LS3/5a bass units sit underneath each speaker and act as a speaker stand. As far as I understand the specs, they dig about 20HZ deeper than the speakers alone, down to 50HZ max. Is that a very light addition to the bass response of my speakers? The cost is quite high: $1500 to have the units purchased and shipped to the USA. Does that seem like money well spent? Phono amp a better idea?
Thanks |
Good to hear all these viewpoints. I take Frogman's point about hall ambience being well developed by the addition of a sub...that was my (theoretical) understanding too. That's a clear direction to go in and I plan to pursue it. Bruckner needs all the help he can get.
The cartridge choice is an issue still. I remember a few years back, at one of the high-end exhibitor rooms at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in Denver; I was listening to a good turntable, with two identical arms mounted on it, each carrying a different MC cartridge. The quality difference in how they each rendered the music was dramatic and clearly related to price. That observation is what stimulated my original question about upping my cartridge quality. But within the domain of reasonably decent MM cartridges do you think perhaps the range of quality is narrower? |
Phasecorrect, yes, maybe I'm fishing for a nice self-present for Xmas! You guys are Santa's helpers.
I'm running a modest Blue Jeans 3 feet phono interconnect to my Rogue amp. |
Inna, I'm not sure which way to go yet, but it seems to me that adding bass is an obvious path to follow as a next step. The RELs have been used before with LS3/5a, but it's a little unclear whether owners of these speakers wholeheartedly agree that the addition of a sub is a positive thing. Anyone who has fiddled with LS3/5a and different types of subs, please share your experiences.
Without going as far as phono amp/MC/new deck, maybe a better cartridge and a sub would max out my system well enough. Stopping at diminishing returns sounds like a good idea. Already the vinyl and recording qualities show up very transparently on this system. |
I have the table on a corian sandwich with three sorbothane semi-sheres in-between the two 1/2 " thick slabs. It's a DIY result that looks good. i have no idea if this could be improved upon! Any suggestions welcome. I know Pro-ject makes a 'Ground-it' isolation platform, but i have never tried it. |
Nandric, that's quite a recommendation, comparing it to the Virtuoso. Thanks. I've never considered Stantons....Is that model still available? I'm not finding it online yet. |
To be honest, I don't feel I'm missing anything, but I know there are two things that can be tweaked into existence:
bass, with a sub, and upper mid band/lower treble resolution with better instrumental separation. The stereo depth is excellent, imaging is great, speakers disappear...they are brilliant BTW.
The Rogue amp has all the muscle and transparency one could wish for, I think. There is never a sense that the system is struggling. I'm basically looking to optimize and see how much more I can find in the sound with a cartridge change or other tweaks. Some great suggestions here so far, thank you. |
Thank you, David and Ozog, for your considered response and detailed view of my system. It's really helpful to get your opinion of where the Shure/SAS is placed in the panoply of MM cartridges.
My Rogue amp has only the 47k loading. If I want to have the flexibility of altering the load resistance for MM only, will I have to go for a full-on phono preamp or is there some kind of unit that can work inline with my Rogue phono to give me that flexibility? |
Johnny, The Kimber Monocles were such a surprise to me in terms of what cabling can yield...well worth the investment. so your suggestion to get better interconnects is excellent, particularly establishing the capacitance values to match the cartridge. I'll have to try and find the Pro-ject specs for their tonearm cable capacitance, to complete the picture. I have never considered these values closely, so it's a direction to follow.
I'm using pure silver 10 gauge wire as jumpers between bi-wire terminals. What do you think?
With all these suggestions, I'm going to need some me-time to investigate all of them. Sounds good to me. |
Yes, the interconnect will be first purchase I think. It may have an important effect on bass too, as may a new butcher block support for the table.
I really like the idea of increasing synergy rather than re-purchasing major components at a higher price level. We know that is an endless story.
Will look into the Stanton, as per your directions. |
Jazzerdave, thanks for the Signal cable tip. Cheaper option too. Glad to know of at least one more 2Xperience owner! They are great tables IMO. Which phono stage are you using presently? Have you tried other cartridges on your Xperience yet?
Strangely enough, I just discovered a major tweak by replacing the ground wire from my table to my Cronus with a beefy piece of 12g stranded wire....reduced the noise floor from the phono stage enormously. Maybe I had a dud grounding wire before. |
Sbrownnw, How would you characterize the difference in the phono stages between the Cronus and the Pro-ject tube box....was it slight or was it night and day, or somewhere in-between?
FYI, I just had my Cronus upgraded to a Magnum, and also went with the huge Tungsol KT120 output tubes instead of the KT90s. The changes to the overall sound are interesting. I get less audible record surface noise than before, blacker backgrounds and a sense that the music moved way from 'demonstrating' and into the domain of live music. Particularly at low listening volumes. The larger tubes increased the power rating of the Cronus considerably, but with my speakers, it doesn't show up as louder, but as more controlled.
The Shure V15 and the table are fully able to allow these changes to show up, so I'm having a new respect for the cartridge. Of course there may be other and better cartridge choices which I'm still looking out for. |
It seems like a significant shift upwards from my Shure v15 IV/Jico SAS might be an Ortofon 2M Black, used with my Cronus phono section (this is the MM direction) or, for similar outlay, an Ortofon Rondo Red MC with a cheaper phono MC preamp such as the Cambridge 651P or the Musical Fidelity V-LPS. (This is the MC direction) Both directions are about the same dollars.
Any thoughts on which direction might be wiser? |
Thanks David, for your perspective on the V15 versus 2M Black. Yes, if I was to invest upwards of $600 on a new cartridge, it had better be a startling upgrade!
I'm slowly getting the impression that my cartridge is already near the high end of the MM landscape, and it may require a lot more money to improve on this result, particularly if I went for MC plus new phono.
I have to at least try some good MM phono stages to see if the bucks would be better spent improving on the Rogue's built in phono. Rogue just released a new phono preamp called the Triton.
Meanwhile I'll follow some of the advice here and look at cables/jumpers etc. |
Well, I finally DID investigate stand-alone phono stages and I am now a very happy owner of a Graham Slee Reflex phono MM stage with it's PSU1 power supply. Simply brilliant! I think I got it right in terms of the best place to put my money. The sound opened up very much, so did the soundstage. The detail, instrumental timbre and smoothness are in another league now. It makes me realize just how good the Shure V15 with Jico really is! I did not expect so much of a shift upwards in the beauty of the sound. There is no sense of compression or harshness. Orchestral massed strings have lost their glare and confusion.
Upgrading the phono amp raised this critical link into the same domain of quality as the Cronus amplifier and the LS3/5a speakers. Great synergy now. |
