http://www.stereophile.com/solidpreamps/54/
http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=178039 |
Dbphd, thx. Now if you would also be so kind and steer me to either some profession Audio reviews, or also postings here on this kind of site's chat forum, where there is in-depth discussion pertaining to SPECIFICALLY comparing Oppo direct from its analog outs, vs passive preamp vs active, I'd like to see it!
Does Oppo have built in volume? Otherwise,what,..us need passive pot or pre??.. Thx |
As much as I LOATH ZD542, I kinda concur. :-) If you're going "music speakers", and focusing on improving 2 ch, then you should go dedicated 2 ch amp/pre and maybe separate the two systems for maximum.
For one, the Theils 2.7's are gunna be too laid back to properly do justice to HT, in my opinion (I've had 3.6's 2.3's, MC1's, 1.5's and 2.3's in my systems over the years).
If I had to go Thiels for double duties, I'd probably lean the powered monitors they sell, or maybe 1.6's in passive.- you want more presence from your ht system, or you'll lean into the sound, which isn't thrilling or involving for proper HT, IME.
Still, I'd go dedicated movie speakers for the HT, if I could...maybe running a pair of your preferred 2 ch speakers in conjunction with looped in AV pre/pro (you're processor is likely fine), running a 5.1 ch dedicated HT monitor system and sub for movies.
I think this topic has be exhaustively covered over the years. |
ZD542, I NEVER said I liked the ANY mode, neither active nor passive, regarding the adcom 750 pre! I merely stated that the active section was more dynamic and weighty over the passive.. didn't care for any part of that preamp, actually!
I'm now thinking that a great deal of that may have been due to the source components and interconnects used, byenlarge. Dunno..gonna need to experiment w the whole passive approach n compare. |
Just remember, you WILL be losing out on the dynamics side of things, in absolute terms, going the passive route with your thiels! I'll put a good active preamp up against a passive approach, virtually every time, from my years of exerience,when it comes to properly producing dynamic transparency from a system. Not properly oversimplifying the initial signal before the amp section, will cost you in that area. I know...used to use direct from DVD and CD players -as well as both Mcormmick and Pass L preamps - in conjunction w many many different amplifier choices, with several Thiel loudspeakers (stereo n multi config). ..it's MUCH, stronger dynamically using a high quality active preamp in the system!
Just something to consider. ..maybe experiment??? |
Ive used McCormmack TLC and Pass Aleph L passive preamps mostly, plus DIY passive volume attenuators and, of course direct DVD player to amp combinations mostly, for my passive experimentation.
Now granted, I've not played with passive setups in at least 8 years, honestly. But my experience with many amp and passive or direct combinations pretty much exclusively has always yielded me less than optimum dynamic results from the sound, and so I just gave up trying, to be truthful!
Now it may very well be possible that the combination of source components and interconnect cabling which I used, was running into impedance issues, and the CD players nowadays very well might be offering lower output impedance than previous units I experimented with (plus maybe I didn't consider restrictions from cabling being an issue there either???), allowing for better signal flow between the components, for more dynamically unrestricted sound, but I'd have to go back and experiment and research some more. Dunno.
I was reading a recent article where more than a couple of posters stated they also experience a " loss of dynamics and some compression in the audio signal going passive,too! So I definitely know that others have had similar experiences as I had in the past..so it's not just me! However, why aren't nearly ALL magazine professional industry reviewers MAINLY using high end ACTIVE preamps as a reference in their own systems, if passives work and sound better/more pure sounding???! That makes no sense.
I did also read this article from a year ago, claiming that passive preamp require careful cabling and source component selections for good results from passive preamp, so maybe that's it.
Maybe I really DO need to go back to experimenting. Because certainly I'd MUCH rather be able to ditch a preamp in the chain altogether. If I can simply get the full dynamic capability from my sound, large open, unrestricted full soundstage that I've experienced with the best high end preamp I can get?! ..maybe my old Card as and Harmonic Tech interconnects were either not compatible with my DVD player n amplifiers impedance matching compatibility, and combinations were simply not compatible with each other? Hmmmm...
imma need me some more research n tinkering, I guess. If anyone out there who listens to occasional Metalica, eclectic world beat, hip-hop n pop, rock, and even movies through their 2 children system, and they exclusively use a passive front end setup with great dynamic results, in their opinions, ..lemme know what you are using in your setup, if you'd be do kind?!!!! I'd like to try out your combo, fer sure. Otherwise, my results of trying paramount amps w built in volume controls, high quality attenuation n DVD players w built in volume haven't cut it for me, compared to better active...is all I'm sayin.
Yes. I'm willing to be enlightened, otherwise, and shown the error of my past ways... |
Ive used McCormmack TLC and Pass Aleph L passive preamps mostly, plus DIY passive volume attenuators and, of course direct DVD player to amp combinations mostly, for my passive experimentation.
Now granted, I've not played with passive setups in at least 8 years, honestly. But my experience with many amp and passive or direct combinations pretty much exclusively has always yielded me less than optimum dynamic results from the sound, and so I just gave up trying, to be truthful!
Now it may very well be possible that the combination of source components and interconnect cabling which I used, was running into impedance issues, and the CD players nowadays very well might be offering lower output impedance than previous units I experimented with (plus maybe I didn't consider restrictions from cabling being an issue there either???), allowing for better signal flow between the components, for more dynamically unrestricted sound, but I'd have to go back and experiment and research some more. Dunno.
I was reading a recent article where more than a couple of posters stated they also experience a " loss of dynamics and some compression in the audio signal going passive,too! So I definitely know that others have had similar experiences as I had in the past..so it's not just me! However, why aren't nearly ALL magazine professional industry reviewers MAINLY using high end ACTIVE preamps as a reference in their own systems, if passives work and sound better/more pure sounding???! That makes no sense.
I did also read this article from a year ago, claiming that passive preamp require careful cabling and source component selections for good results from passive preamp, so maybe that's it.
Maybe I really DO need to go back to experimenting. Because certainly I'd MUCH rather be able to ditch a preamp in the chain altogether. If I can simply get the full dynamic capability from my sound, large open, unrestricted full soundstage that I've experienced with the best high end preamp I can get?! ..maybe my old Card as and Harmonic Tech interconnects were either not compatible with my DVD player n amplifiers impedance matching compatibility, and combinations were simply not compatible with each other? Hmmmm...
immature need me some more research n tinkering, I guess. If anyone out there who listens to occasional Metalica, eclectic world beat, hip-hop n pop, rock, and even movies through their 2 children system, and they exclusively use a passive front end setup with great dynamic results, in their opinions, ..lemme know what you are using in your setup, if you'd be do kind?!!!! I'd like to try out your combo, fer sure. Otherwise, my results of trying paramount amps w built in volume controls, high quality attenuation n DVD players w built in volume haven't cut it for me, compared to better active...is all I'm sayin.
Yes. I'm willing to be enlightened, otherwise, and shown the error of my past ways... |
Yes, I too had played with the old Adcom gfp 750 (forgot about that) and that was at least 12 years ago. But, with whatever CD sources I tried, the active setting sounded definitely weighted and more punchy than the more closed-in sounding and subdued, dynamically, passive setting! Once again, even though the passive setting was clearer n less colored, rock n dynamic stuff had more soul n powerful overall sound in active...that's just what I found, and Im pretty certain I sold that piece retail in two different WiFi stores at the turn of the century! ...in fact I'm also certain that we sold other ACTIVE preamps then, that were much superior over the passive adcom setup,if I recall. In fact Im pretty certain just about every hiend audio equip you could think of produced better sounding top end preamp during that time, of which the Adcom was no match, if I recall correctly?! I mean if the passive section of that 750 was that good, why wouldn't more reviewers using them as reference pieces in their own systems???!
Anyway, what was I missing then?... |
ANYONE FOLLOWING THESE LAST FEW POSTS REGARDING PASSIVE PREAMP FRONT END VS ACTIVE, PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING STEREOPHILE ARTICLE FROM COREY GREENBERG,NOV 1991 STEREOPHILE MAG BELLOW
http://www.stereophile.com/solidpreamps/54/
..then you'll all understand my troubled frustrations and shortcomings with the passive thing over the years... |
"..it looks like u missed what Stereophile had to say about the GFP750" "I believe it set the record for the lowest cost preamp to ever get a Class A rating" - Zd542
Zd542, no no NO NO NO!! Hate to break it you, ..don't care one iota what bogus rating Stereophile got paid to give,..ADCOM NEVER MADE IT INTO A LEGIT CLASS A STATUS!! Let me reiterate, just incase you didn't hear me ,..NEVER HAPPENED! (Yeah, let's just say it was, ahem,...conveniently "placed" there at one point) ..Used this piece in several systems, in different stores, and it's not a world class piece! I'm tellin you. It's just not. MUCH better in lists even bellow it, yes.
lemme just go ahead inform you that, after having worked directly in hiend audio retail sales in 4 different very hi end av salons for over 15 years, TO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ REGARDING AV EQUIPMENT REVIEWS!!!..YES, EVEN IF ITS STEREEOPHILE MAGAZINE!! Yes, reviewers are, have been, and always will continue to be incentivized and paid directly from equipment manufacturers-desperate for GLOWING OVER REACHING REVIEWS - because they know for proven absolute certain that such favorable write-up will SELL PRODUCT!! SEEN this over and over for decades now. That's just business. And, if anyone is naive enough to believe otherwise, then I dunno what to tell ya - but it's historically proven to be EXTREMELY difficult for small esoteric equipment makers ( let alone even larger mainstream manufacturers ) to stay in business, let a lone turn a profit. Yup, reviewers definitely play their roll..and the money changed hands in this very tight knit hiend industry. Believe it! ..as a famous competitor once said .."man,I got kids ta feed!"
So sorry to say, but no, Bryston nor Parasound never made it as an elite product line, nor was the Modulus 3A actually Class A, nor was the Mirage M1 tower class AB, .and neither did the B&W DM302 speakers really make, class B stereophile, ..and nor are Def Tech the greatest loudspeakers, as Brent Butterwort lead u to believe, and neither were Paradigms,. Also, nopeTHE Arcam AV300 AV receiver also WASNT better than separates, as crazy over zealous reviewer claimed to "sell soap", etc, and so forth.
All I'm sayin, is you gotta try this stuff out with actual hands on!...otherwise don't just always believe what's printed somewhere..cause there may be an agenda. It happened. I swear.
("Money answereth all things" -Eclessiastes 10:19) hummmmmm.. |
Sure, I will check into more Oppo postings and such...
But besides all that,..just blanketedly, It's probably safe to presume that, simply due to the fact that probably most all of the pro Hifi industry magazine reviewers use an actual -mostly active- preamp in their own personal reference systems ( and not to mention that the "Amp/preamp" forum here on Audiogon is easily 5Xs THE SIZE of this home theater forum..why is that???? ), that the entire informed audiophile world understands that preamp are merely convenient SWITCHERS, and far inferior options to simply bypassing straight from the Oppo Direct??!! ..so, what, The Oppo direct analog is undisputed the purest most high fidelity analog option that a system can attain??? Sounds like it from what I heAr here...so I'm just making sure that that's the proven position, from both audiophiles, industry pro reviewers, n hobbyists alike, fer highest fidelity 2 children perspective digital sourcing, correct?
just wanna be clear. ..cause it sure doesn't add up, when I look at the storyline thus far...but maybe I'm underestimating the Oppo alltogeth??
Let's look into this.. |
Zd542, case in point: Sound and visions Sep 2014 issue reviews a few new AV receivers on the market, including a $2000 Anthem far and a $600 entry level Available receiver. AND GUESS WHICH RECIEVER GOT THE FULL FIVE STAR RATING??!! ..That's right, the $600 light weight Sony mass market surrounds sound piece got the highest rating possible, and was lauded as sounding dynamic, open, airy and uncolored sounding!!! Comparatively, the $2 grand audiophile ambitious offering from world renowned high end audio equip mfr Anthem, got dinged with a 4.5 star rating, criticized as analytical sounding???
I'm Gunna go out on a limb, from having sold all this stuff for decades, that the Anthem indeed is the higher fidelity piece, with more refined sound, better power n dynamics and refinement, period!!
Really??!! ..you think the little Sony is REALLY FIVE star worthy, cause a review said so??!!! ..um yyeeeaaAAAHH NNOOO!!
Buyers beware..n proceed at your own risk before buying (particularly new) |
Zd542, I'd like you to please type in "gfp-750" into the search bar on home page for the discussion forums here on audition, and then proceed to read through ALL the postings pertaing to the Adcom ((mostly all are pertaining to the Adcom vs other preamps) ...
Then after you read how All the experienced posters here DOWNGRADE the actual performance of the GFP750,do be sure n get back to us on your new newely reinforced position on this piece as a legit Stereophile world class A rated component!!!!
YYEEAAAHHH ..OK. No really.. I'll wait |
Oh, Dunno what I was thinkin! You guys are obviously correct..I'm half baked,..the Oppo is a world class transport n dig audio source, clearly on the level of a Wadia tranny from its analog outs, n the gfp750 is most certainly the same or better sound than the CAT, Reference AUD Research, etc. ..no really, musta mised all of this over the years probably.
Me n my tin ear, n spaced out tendencies towards watching the Tv that was playing in the store window.
Errr, um, yeah. ..Well at least you guys can sleep at night knowing you have found the end all be all reference system pieces, that are without equal.
..so ya got that goin fer ya...which is nice. |
Imaginary equip? Yes thats valid. Once again, you are merely stating as FACT that the industry pros all recognize the Oppo as the leader in world class audio direct from its analog outs..no need for a preamp, to attain the best possible digital sound reproduction. That's all im trying to verify, really.
No really, so these are the facts? Seriously, someone please confirm here. Really. I wanna know cause its just a little suspect position, however, since when I read all the reviews n go to all the hiend audio shows, I simply never see any vendors or reviewers using this setup.
Feel free to intelligently address this observation, anytime you feel the need to actually provide a valid point. ..that and feel free to point out why the aidiophiles here cant seem to hear the superiority of the Adcom GFP750.
Anyone? Anyone at all?..
All I here are jokers cackling |
my apologies Zd542. I lump both you and the PhD-in-DP's guy into same "passive camp". Yes, simply provide some FACT based on submitting ur position that the Adcom is world class A rating worthy.
Oh, since any opinion is relative ,obviously, fer some sort of relevancy here, let's count FACT as at least half or more of those classifying themselves as audiophiles agree on an position. In this case, since pretty much every review or comparison on audition, pertaining to the 750, state that the thing ain't all that! Good enough, in my opinion.. |
ZD542, If that doesn't work for you, then how about "if the Adcom GFP750 at such a cheap price on the net is such a killer world beater deal, then why aren't lead industry respected audiophile reviewers using this thing in their reference systems, in DROVES??!!..instead of the ridiculously expensive ones their likely using instead?!
Clearly, they must be foolish not to, I suppose??..
Again..Ur response?? I'll wait |
No no..not needed anymore, thx. No one reading hear needs care if some specific inference or special form of answer to your question gets answered in some unique manner! Thx for the games though.
You know what you are!...and that's all that counts, "Mr avoid THE IMPORTANT POINTS IN QUESTION!" - which was making your case of the Adcom actually being what some paid off biased review in an audio rag said it was..when CCCLLLEEEEAAARLY the entire audiophile community found out otherwise, including myself! That's fine..just skirt around the meat of the matter here, for what anyone cares to discuss. Surely we all think you're cool and edgy with your redirect of a redirect! WWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!! Isn't this fun.??!!
Summation, apparently without rebutal: Adcom GFP750 was/is NOT so special!..so as we all could share in your heart felt sentiment towards this overrated piece of mind-first gear!!! If it was, I surely woulda bought one for a few rooms in the house, years ago, when I had the chance at dealer cost!
Thx fer the giggles! Don't bother with anymore circumventions of actual audio talk...cause that's all u got |
Mid-fi gear..my bad.
..Same goes fer the Oppo, it seems, as no stepped forward to defend its direct analog connect to an amplifier, passive application merits vs others, nor active pre comparison.
Oh well...tried |
Great! So direct Oppo vs Oppo to passive pre vs Oppo to active pre should be easy to judge the differences and quantify??. Like to hear the results posted, if u dare?? Yes,please compare difficult dynamic large scale stuff to compare would be awesome, n inform us all what differences u found comparing the diff connect arrangements?
Yes, oppo is as I suspected, read reviews as better than most, but bellow world class disc spinners for more money. From what I gather, I'm sure I could live with moded versions. Which ver is best bang fer???
yeah yeah...probably look into getting one for all it accomplishes.
Then again we WILL be going 4k and even disc-less real soon. Soooooooo....... |
WAIT WAIT WAAAAIIIITTT!!! You guys mean to tell me that an expensive hi end preamp inserted in between the All mighty Oppo sounds better than direct bypass to the amps from the Oppo analog outs??!!! NO WAY!!! How's this possible?!!! After all, should totally be another unnecessary window in the chain, to mess up the purity of the sound, having the active preamp in the signal, yes???
Well I'm jus all confuse ed now!. ..was already to go pick up that unflappable Oppo... but just got derailed!!
Back to the drawing board, I say |
HAZYJ, sorry about that. It was an auto word spelled TYPO!
The word I was trying to type was "AMPLIFYING" ..not oversimplifying.
My understanding has always been that source components, have not historically outputted the same level of amplified or buffered analog signal as say you would from a good active preamp output signal!! In fact, if you read through both old and even more recent threads and reviews on passive preamp n such, you'll get similar feedback (which often is commented as "constricted dynamics" or even rolled highs, on occasion) from those who have tried passive pres and direct both!
My years past results ,using high end CD and DVD players with passive pres and direct to amp ,BOTH have only resulted in softened dynamics, unfortunately, as well..otherwise I would have stayed using Pass Aleph L passive pre, or direct analog out from my 24/96 DVD player w built in volume control, amp direct, if I had gotten stronger overall sounding results! It just never worked out, and I was much more satisfied using meow expensive active preamp, accordingly.
That make sense?
Now, however, looks like I'm unna look into trying, yes, the likes of a modded Oppo, direct to tube n ss amps BOTH, with short ICs n see if that player handles the passive, or even no-preamp approach, better than years past. If it does, I'll be most encouraged, certainly!
I mean, seriously, who wouldn't want to be able do without an unnecessary extra component in the chain if they can effectively do without it?! I would, sure. ...just can't live with with whimpy dynamics nor constrained soundstage from my sound. No no..that I WILL NOT do. It's just uninspiring n weak sounding, otherwise, you know... |
Zd542, just cause I agreed with you on the lone point, doesn't mean that your still not a total douche,nor were we gonna hold hands n sing com bay ya together! However, make no mistake. U ARE an intentional irritant and a wart on the audioenthusiast azz of society! Well played sir!..you've made even more people loath u fer all eternity, this post alone..
See?! Your postings here arent a total waste after all. |
