More Power or use subwoofer to boost bass for music

Atmasphere:”But a DBA simply does it better, that’s all. You do the DBA first, **then** the bass traps (if needed), since the DBA is far more effective at sorting out bass problems.”


Hello atmasphere,

     Based on my experience using the Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA for the past 5years, I believe your advise is exactly correct. I didn’t plan on buying the DBA first and then add bass traps if needed, I just happened to inadvertently follow the advice you’d give 5 years later. I used my 4-sub DBA for abut 4 years with absolutely no room treatments except wall to wall carpeting. I currently use it in a fully GIK treated room per their suggested reasonably expensive room treatment plan following a free room analysis.      Their plan called for 2 of their fairly large TriTrap bass traps stacked in all 4 corners of my room, four 2’x2’x 5.5” thick bass trap wall panels. GIK’s plan also called for about sixteen 4’x2’ acoustic wall panels installed that are a combination of strategically placed absorption and diffusion panels.
     My main focus for having a professional room analysis done was to determine whether room treatments could make even further incremental improvements to my system’s midrange, treble and imaging quality. I was very concerned, however, with GIK’s suggestion of fairly extensive bass traps in my room. The bass quality in my room with the DBA in use was already, at that time, what I considered near state of the art without a single bass trap. I definitely wanted to avoid compromising my system’s excellent bass quality by deploying bass traps. After receiving assurances from GIK and A K’s Duke Lejeune that was traps would not negatively effect the DBA’s bass quality, l decided to include them all in my room treatment install.
     They were correct, I’ve noticed no negative effects in The DBA’s bass quality with a full complement of acoustic room treatments, including bass traps. I have noticed significant improvements in my system’s overall clarity, articulation and imaging, mainly in the midrange and treble range, I believe the bass traps helped extend this increase in overall clarity and detail down into the bass region but it’s difficult to claim with any certainty, since the bass was already very clear and detailed prior to adding the bass traps.      I can state with certainty that the added bass traps have had no negative effects on the DBA’s bass quality in my room. I actually think your previous comment, I believe I read on another thread, perfectly sums up my opinion on the DBA concept in actual application: “The DBA is an elegant bass solution”. Well stated and true.

Tim

I have had very good results with 2 REL T9i subs (that’s 9" plus passive radiators). I use the high level speaker outs and let REL’s internals do their magic. (On movies the REL "listens" to the Sub LFE output, but it’s not stereo.)
Very nice lower bass that enhances mid-range imaging. Flat to <25hz with few nodes as I roam about with my sound level meter, or just my ears. I use the old Stereo Review Test Record for node checking, then music.
Chest thumping impact on movies, but it’s the stereo listening that is really enhanced.
I followed the REL instructions for setup, which were unlike any technique I had used before. Then it’s just dialing in levels.
(Parasound A51, Dynaudio floorstanders + surounds. 18X35 room. I also have a window wall. Wood floors, area rugs and some minor wall treatments.)
Trying to EQ flat bass below 50hz on those B&W will drive them into directionality, if not distortion. Letting the REL’s do their internal crossover reduces overdriving the main speakers and they will be happier.
I drive 85dB as reference, without listener fatigue (the true measure of distortion(s)). That’s way too loud for an apartment.
Little subs, easy placement. Smaller REL’s in a small room would probably work well, too.
I have never liked big subs for stereo listening, although I have spent time with HSU and SVS. Great for "I have a SUB!" display to visitors but marginal for pure stereo. (Also had a Hartley 36" for fun.)

A lot of good answers. Sounds like a room problem. Two basic problems, speakers not coupling to room walls or bass cancelation based on room size relative to listening area. If moving your speakers don't do the trick, then try adding a sub. Check dealer for return policy. A single sub should provide enough punch and accuracy to satisfy most tastes.

It seems like this thread has drifted away a bit from helping the OP, xcool, with his specific bass issue and toward how to attain very good in-room bass performance in general. I think I’ve contributed to this drift off topic as much or more than anyone and I apologize to xcool for doing so.
      The 4-sub DBA concept has provided the best bass quality I’ve ever experienced in my system and room. Because of this, and the fact that the DBA concept has the capacity to work equally as well in virtually any room and seamlessly integrate with any pair of main speakers, I’ve felt a responsibility to spread the word to fellow music and a/v equipment enthusiasts on the efficacy of the DBA concept.      I realize that some may attribute my enthusiastic advocacy of the DBA concept to ulterior motives but I can’t control that. I can only honestly state that I have none and my intent is solely to share my very positive DBA experiences. I’m actually very surprised with the apparent lack of awareness and usage of the DBA concept here on Audiogon. It’s not exactly a new concept and it’s effectiveness has been consistently proven both scientifically and anecdotally.

     However, contrary to popular belief I also realize and believe that a 4-sub DBA may not be the best bass solution for everyone, For example, the OP xcool.
     The first consideration is that he lives in an apartment, with limited space and likely lease restrictions on allowable modifications he can make within it. While 4 subs would undoubtably offer the best bass performance, they may not be practical for him. But I believe even a single very good quality larger sub with rated bass extension down to 20 Hz, and optimally positioned in the room in relation to the listening seat using the crawl method, would result in a significant improvement in bass performance. It may even be possible to create a mini-DBA effect at your listening seat utilizing just 3 bass transducers in your room. One woofer in each of your main speakers equals 2 and the woofer in the added sub makes the total number of bass transducers launching bass sound waves into your room equal 3. The sub crawl method of locating the sub would ensure you don’t position the sub at a specific room position that results in standing waves and poor bass at your listening seat.
     Having the added sub also capable of outputting bass down to 20 Hz could result in the perception that the overall bass extension of your system has been deepened. I want to be clear that I’m not stating this will definitely work in your room, just that it may be worth a try. I don’t think it would be difficult to find a dealer willing to let you borrow a larger, very good quality sub capable of bass extension down to 20 Hz.      The second consideration is that your using B&W floor standing speakers, with the bass, midrange and treble transducers all in a single cabinet, likely arranged vertically. Assuming your positioning your main speakers like most individuals do, in a triangular configuration in relation to the listening seat to optimize the mid/treble and stereo imaging performance, the positioning of the bass drver(s) in each speaker have not been optimized in the room and in relation to your listening seat for optimum bass performance perception at the listening seat.      In other words, because the bass producing woofer drivers in your main speakers are not capable of being independently positioned In your room, it’s not possible to optimize the bass quality at your listening.seat. This is an issue with virtually all floor standing full range speakers. By optimizing the mid/high frequency and stereo imaging performance at the listening seat via precise locating of the speakers in the room and in relation to the listening seat, the bass performance is compromised since the bass drivers are fixed in place, typically below the midrange driver and tweeter, and they cannot be precisely located in the room and in relation to the listening seat to optimize bass performance at the listening seat. Even if your floor standing speakers have multiple woofers or built in self amplified subs and had a rated bass extension flat down to 20 Hz, this high quality bass will not be perceived at the listening seat if they are not positioned in your room and in relation to your listening seat to optimize bass performance.
     The above explains why I suggested in a prior post the use of 2 relatively small subs that can be independently positioned in your room for optimized bass performance at your listening seat such as the SVS-SB-1000 or similar Hsu subs with rated bass extension close to 20 Hz, may be the best bass solution for you.      You would need to optimize the positioning of one sub first in your room using the crawl method and then optimize the room location of the other sub, with the first sub operating, and again using the crawl method.      In general, 2 subs will perform and sound about twice as well as a single sub. The benefits of using 2 subs are that both subs are operating well below their limits, the bass is smoother, faster, more detailed, with a general sense of ease and the bass will be better integrated or blended with your main speakers. You also have the option of using whatever pair of subs you’d like that meet your preferences and budget.

Best wishes,
Tim