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Modern AV Receiver vs Amp / Pre-Amp separates? Genuine question

Do modern AV receivers (mid-range price on up) with the latest DACs deliver the bulk of the musical experience that a separate AMP+DAC or AMP+Pre-Amp+DAC can deliver for about the same price?  What if one purchased a twice as expensive Amp+Pre+DAC combo, would you necessarily get 2X the musical quality and experience?  I ask this because I think there are quite a number of folks who believe for the most part, clean, powerful amps pretty much should deliver the same sound, with no significant differences.  Some believe that a pre-amp could improve sound, but perhaps it's due to better impedenace matching at play.  In other words, maybe the dedicated power supply, higher quality inner components, and cleaner circuit and cabling bring some benefit but not necessarily musical experience improvement in direct proportion to the price increase.  And a well designed, modern receiver with modern dac and direct-mode for 2-channel audio can be nearly as good for less money and greater simplicity.  Also, the room settings of modern receivers may also be a distinct advantage of a modern receiver over separates.

Do most of you agree that it's easier to tell the differences between speakers, DAC and sources than it is to tell the difference between amplification sources like recievers vs pre-amp/amp/dac/source combos?  Would there be greater diminishing returns for the money when looking specifically only at receivers vs pre-amp/amp/dac/source combos?

It seems some blind tests conducted found that listeners were hard pressed to tell the difference between amplifiers, or between receivers vs separates.


What are your own experiences?









128x128ethanhallbeyer
big_greg
6,573 posts
 
Are separates going to sound twice as good?  No.  Will a system with a decent preamp and dedicated DAC sound better than most AVRs?  Yes, noticeably.  The most recent AVPs I've had in my main system were Marantz AV8801 (the flagship at the time) and now a Marantz AV7704. 

My Modwright LS100 has substantially better sound quality and I'm using an Auralic Vega for my DAC. 

The AVP just can't extract the same level of detail (or holds back some of the detail, however you want to look at it).

On the other hand, I added a Jolida Fusion to my bedroom system and I would not say it sounds substantially better than my Integra DHC-80.3, which sounds surprisingly good for 2 channel listening.  I'm not sure if the Jolida just isn't all that great or the Integra is that good, but there's not the same night and day difference between those two units that there is between the Marantz and the Modwright.
mzkmxcv
777 posts
 
Look at the Audioholics measurements of the Denon X3300; the DAC/pre-amp/amp isn’t as good as separates, but it’s nowhere near bad. In rating the % of importance for speakers, the room/treatment, and your gear, the speakers are 80%, the room/treatment is 15%, and the gear is 5%.  
  
If doing surround sound, always use an A/V receiver as your pre-amp/professor, as separates, even if costing $10,000, won’t have the software update support that A/V receivers do. The DACs in them (AKM 4458 usually) is also pretty good, so not a huge benefit in upgrading, so that just leaves the power amp.
ethanhallbeyer's avatar
ethanhallbeyer OP
4 posts
 
thanks for your replies.. to the last poster, I looked at your modwright ls100 and the interior is pretty clean and bare.. seems kind of hard for me to understand how something with minimal circuitry and components inside could still cost thousands of dollars?  and if minimalism and the fewest components in the way is the goal of a good pre-amp, would it stand to reason that an even better solution would be SOURCE to DAC to AMP to SPEAKERS, bypassing use of a pre-amp altogether?
mzkmxcv
777 posts
 
@ethanhallbeyer

No, most every system sounds better with a pre-amp, unless using like a Benchmark DAC hi h can output >20Vrms with balanced connections.  
  
Also, if using a subwoofer(s), the room correction (Audyssey for Denon/Marantz) is highly beneficial (some audiophiles debate whether to bypass DSP for the L/R or not, but almost everyone agrees it helps with bass).
caphill
667 posts
 
AV preamp processors receive regular software update supports as AVRs do. 
I've always been using AV pre pro in my dedicated HT room and I received software update support regularly. 
I don't know where you got the info from and what made you think that AV pre pro do not receive software update supports.
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