MC-MM-MI CARTRIDGES . DO YOU KNOW WHICH HAS BETTER QUALITY PERFORMANCE? REALLY?

Dear @mijostyn : " The Goldring 1042 is the best current MM cartridge I have recently heard, "

That’s a toy compared against any of the ones I listed here and I let you know only to examples of what I’m talking about:

 

the AT ML180OCC came with gold plated boron cantilever that not even today any cartridge manufacturer can find out and the Technics with boron cantilever too has a FR that goes from 5hz to 120khz that not even your best today LOMC can’t even it and yes both flat channels measured response. The Voice? what’s that.

You need to learn about but more important is that you need to listen it in your home system and when you finally could do it you will know of what quality performance levels I’m talking about. A way different league of what you are today accustom to.

 

R.

 

Dear @mijostyn  : I listened at least 4 times the SS SG cartridge and twice with my LP tracks and no mistracking issues, additional here mke246 use it against a great cartridge tracking as is the Shure he uses and he posted the SG is better in that specific regards.

 

R.

Dear friends: I can see that all of you are " inclined " for LOMC or MI cartridges and no one posted yet nothing important about MM cartridge motor designs. Well @dgarretson did it when he posted about Precept cartridge.

That fact, at least with the gentlemans that already posted ,  could says many things and for me says that no one of you were exposed/listened to top MM cartridges that outperforms The Voice or the Statement that mijos " die " for or top today/vintage LOMC cartridges.

One gentleman posted that he did not needs to listen MM cartridges and other said that owned the Grace F9 and that's it. Btw, the Grace F9 was in reality as an entry level in the Grace cartridge catalogue but the ones to listen was/is the F14 series that's where a high quality level belongs in Grace manufacturer.

Not even audiophiles as @lewm that posted about Stanton where he is an owner is a top MM vs the really top MM cartridges but at the medium step of that ladder, yes a good cartridge  but no more than that.

I was and am exposed/listen to the true/real top MM quality level performance ladder and that's why I put at the same level that all the other cartridge designs ladder alongits couple top truly to dedicated Pho Stage design that with out it no one can appreciates what I can .

Rigth not I'm listening one of those true top MM cartridge coming from Audio Technica: AT ML180 OCC that can beats any SS MI today cartridges but not only the AT outperforms several cartridge today designs but other MM too as: Audio Technica AT36 with today stylus shape: this is a fantastic performer as is the AT 160 LC OCC or the AT 25 but the Technics EPC 100C MK4 ( stand alone unit. )  or the U205CMK4 are incredible performers. Signet TK 10 ML MK2 or the Precept 440 and 550ML both came from AT Group and named by @dgarretson  or Pioneer 550E. Yes the JVC X-1 MK2 and Excel ES-70EX4 and I can't let out Shure with the Ultra 500 and the ML 140HE.

With out been exposed to one of those MM cartridges along a top first rate dedicated MM phono stage we can't know about MM cartridge performance levels and how it compares against the other cartridge motor designs.

I one of you has the rigth MM phono stage and is lucky enough then will can to find out a couple of those MM cartridges by ebay or directly in Yahoo Japan or other japanese web sited nad you can find out for peanuts when outperforms 10K+ yoday any kind of cartridge motor designs: some of them not all today samples of that level.

 

R.

Dear @bdp24 : I really don't disagrre with you from your last post but my point of view is a little different due that as we all know each link in the home system chain is overall important but when we are talking of the LP/analogue chain as a " mini-system " the both critical and more important issues other than the LP source and cartridge/tonearm alignment belongs to the cartridge it self and with out doubt the phonolinestage due that the cartridge is the " mini-system " source and the phonolinepreamp is the processor of the source cartridge signal.

Exist importance gradation levels in all the system chain and for me that's my gradation for very good reasons.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : " and it will not handle high groove velocities near as well as a MI or MC cartridge will. " 

SG has no mistracking problems as a fact exist many MC/MI that can't handle high velocities recorded LP grooves, not the SG. It's brigthness comes from no RIAA and from its dedicated phono stage but that cartridge ( SS models, not Panasonic or Sao Win. ) tracks everything even at inner grooves.

 

R.

@tomic601  : Audioquest cartridges weremade by Scan-Tech same builder ( OEM ) of all Lyra cartridges. 

So it's not at random that AQ came with very high quality performance levels.

R.

Dear @tomic601 : It’s weird that you mentioned the Audioquest HO AQ 404 because as you can read in my Agon virtual system that’s one of the HOMC cartridges that I own and for a good reason. Good.

Btw, Audioquest had the same model but LOMC design too.

 

R.

Dear @mahler123  : I'm curious how do you arrived to that conclusion that's similar to mine? because I read that you own only MM cartridge/phono stage. I don't think that what you posted was just at " random " but could be.

Can you explain a little about? thank's in advance.

 

R.

Dear @ak749  : IM means:Induced Magnet as the ADC crtridges and MF is: Moving Flux as the Astatic/Micro Seiki/Glanz and MP: Moving Permalloy like the Nagaoka ones. The Electrostatic I mentioned is the MicroAcoustic cartridges and all these cartridge motor designs work through MM phono stages.

You can get samples of all the cartridge motors mendioned in the thread through ebay and other web sites.

R.

Dear @mahler123 and friends :

" One can speak of general traits of differing technologies, but ultimately a high degree of musical fidelity can be obtained with all of them. "

 

Tha’s my main conclusion that I achieved through all my first hand experiences in the MUSIC/audio world.

 

Exist and existed several MM/LOMC/HOMC/MI/IM/MF/ELectrostatic/ and the like that are superb one against the other with no real winner no matter what.

 

As many of you I made and still make several cartridge compARISONS/EVALUATIONS/TESTS using over 30 different tonearms, over 10 different TTs, over 10 different phono stages, over 15 different SUTs, heavy different cartridge output levels/compliances/stylus shapes/cantilever materias and in several room/system and mainly in my room/system. In all cases/situations using almost the same test whole proccess using almost the same LP tracks at almost the same SPLs. So I trust in my unbiased conclusions.

One important issue is that my audio system noise floor is inaudible other that by a bat. You can swith on system link one by one or switch off and you can’t detect any noise even with your ear at 5cm. of my 95db efficiency speakers.

Each kind of design cartridge has its own noise floor and I agree with @mijostyn

that when we have a HO cartridge we totally now is HO and not a LOMC design no matter what and this is a heavy advantage between a HO cartridges against the LOMC ones but in the other side the LOMC cartridge has the great advantage that the cartridge signal pass internally to very short wires against the HO that in that specific regards makes a little higher signal degradation that the LOMC but nothig comes by free because that LOMC advantage has a price to pay for: it needs phonolinepreamps with additional gain stages that degrades too the cartridge signal where in the HO cartridges that degradation is lower.

So, it’s a figth between those cartridge specific characteristics that again has no inherent winner.

LOMC cartridges arenon sensible to load impedance/capacitance and this fact is an advantage when the MM and MI are sensible to load impedance and

capacitance.Nothing is perfect but electrostatic designs are not sensitive at allin those characteristics.

LOMC cartridges has other advantage when his cantilever/stylus is not changeable like the MM/MI/IM;MF;elctrostatic but in the old times and today these cartridge type of designs (not all only a few of them ) took assolution and B&O was the first design with fixed cantilever/stylus ( today only Grado and SS that came from B&O desin cartridges.) other manufacturers made different as Technics in his EPC 100C MK4 and Audio Technica in their models AT 24 and AT 25 but Signet too ( member of AT group. ) with the TKS9/10 where the stylus cantilever/is ounted in a tiny metal frame srewed to the bottom cartridge body.

This fixed cantilever/stylus is way important because avoid additional developed distortions that I detected with the Stanton/Pickering cartridge and where both been exactly the same cartridge design/motor Pickering

came with a tigther assemble to the cartridge than the Stanton one and you know what: you can interchange one for the other cantilever/stylus in the HO MM designs as a fact is the way how I listen to the Stanton.

There is an Agoner that almost hates the HOMC cartridges and my take is that he had not the opportunity to listen it in a first/top phonolinepreamp and the HOMC specific models that perfortma beautyful through a MM stage.We need a topMM stage to do it and for the MM cartridges and even the MI/MF/IM and the like that phono stage needs at least the we can load the cartridge at 100k not 47k and even 200k is better along the need it capacitance according each cartridge.

Well if some of us do not like the HOMC cartridges mainly reasons are the ones explained here but what about MC cartridges designs that are designed with user remplacable cantilever/stylus,ether LO/HO?

Well I still own 3 of those designs. One from Empire, one from Sony and the best ones in the world by Satin. Till you listen the Sony or Satin ( different models in between. ) HO changeable cantilever/stylus in the rigth MM phono stage you just can’t know whay you losted in the MUSIC enjoyment. The Sony was made by Satin and is a truly dificult cartridge to mates to any tonearm due that its weigth 18grs. with over 30 cu and 4.0mv output but it’s an excellent performer, its bass range is something you can live only true live MUSIC seated at near field position:period.

 

That I remember and he did it by coincidence the only Agonerbs that I know that already listened to a Satin HO replaceable stylus/cantilever are @sbank  and @dgarretson due that @sbank bougth from me a Satin ( that I still own and is formidable. ) that when he received and aftera few hours started to distort when @dgarretson by coicidence was at his place: Spencer knows about and yes I changed for a different cartridge that fortunatelly likes himand the Satin came back to me..

 

Btw, @dogberry touched the word " neurologist " and this link will explain all about that when listening MUSIC at home or in alive even or when we are doing comparisons:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8228195/#:~:text=The%20amygdala%20participates%20in%20the,of%20the%20fight%2Dor%2Dflight

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : " I auditioned the Strain Gauge. It is on the bright side do to response irregularities and it will not handle high groove velocities near as well as a MI or MC cartridge will. "

I agree with you on the brigth side of SG but not in your last sentence due that as optical cartridge design SG did not develops voltage due that " no sense " groove velocity but its amplitude and tha's why in the first page of the thread @mke246  posted that his SoundSmith SG cartridges has not only lower noise but lower distortion even at inner grooves that his high compliance Shure cartridge and he has reason on what he is listening.

 

R.

Dear @pryso : " I don’t intend to say attending one or two a year is sufficient. Repetition is needed to ingrain the unique sonics or each type of instrument and vocal range. Again there is the likelihood for sonic variations from one live venue to another, one brand or design of a given instrument to another, and individual vocal characteristics. So broad and aggregated experience becomes necessary. "

 

You are just spot on.

 

Btw, you know I live in México and in one of my USA trips I was in San Diego Area where I meet you along other incredible gentlemans and audiophiles. I was at your place listening your system through those great Duntech Sorveign and was at your home where took place the second shoot-out between the Dartzeel phonolinepreamp and my Essential 3150 That was a great time with all of you where the most important issue for me was to know great great human being with which all been shared our first hand experiences of our beloved hooby: MUSIC and MUSIC home reproduction.

For me the time with all of you were learning audio times that even today gaves me certainty to my way of thinking in audio world.

Same happened in Dallas ( two times ) with audio lovers as @albertporter and his group, he had the opportunity to listen the Essential 3150 and in the second trip the Essential 3160 too. I was in Idaho, Austin, LA, Denver, Georgia, twice in Houston where I been hosted in his house both times by a gentleman that is some one to meet him and obviously his audio friends he is @fcrowder where I listened for the very first time Rockport TT and the top of the line Acapella speakers: great room/system for say the least.

To many places to name all but I can’t let out Phiuladelphia area hosted by a dear @sbank and his group and between that group was @slipknot1 and that time we liste to the Essential 3150 in his place in a meeting with their audio area club ( at least 20 audiopphiles there ) where was there Lloyd Walker ( TT designer. ) a close fiend of him , obviously that he owned the Walker Procenium surrounded by top audio system.

From here a hot regards to all of them and you in especial.

 

R.

 

Dear @dgarretson  : Certainly is a real pleasure to meet you here again, as a fact I know that as me several Agoners miss you and miss your very kigh knowledge audio world levels either technically and sound system first hand experiences. I hope you can continue, time to time, in this forum that needs gentlemans as you.

 

" throughout your epic thread I accumulated many vintage TOTL MM/MI cartridges, many NOS, and was finally convinced that on identical tonearms a Stanton 981LZS was pretty close to a Lyra Etna. Not to mention top Grace, Precept, Astatic, even an inexpensive Sonus Blue-- a fast and lovely sounding very high compliance design. "

 

As you several music lovers/audiophiles ( including me ) really enjoy that " new " long cartridge voyage that still today continue.

Your sentence about the Stanton/Etna truly helps me to confirm part of my opinion/answer that till today I don't posted yet in this thread. Obviously that I have my self OP conclusions that will share with all Agoners any time from now.

Btw, yes optical old design cartridge is the " fashion " ( for good reasons. ) in analog with the advantage ( along SG cartridge designs. ) that to develops voltage through tracking grooves velocitties both optical/SG makes it as an amplitude devices and yes as everything in analog has its own trade-offs.

Good to see you again.

 

R.

Dear @terry9  :Both different cartridges overall tone color and other characteristics.

I used several cartridges with ruby cantilever and no oneof them really satisfied totally to me. The top  Grado lost alittle the natural agresiveness, brigthness and even agresiveness that we can listen seated at near field posiiton in live MUSIC but overall is a good performer.

@daveyf : " is the impact on the cartridge of the phono stage, and the arm, both of which make a very large difference. "

Yes, but remember that in the OP says: " everything the same. " and I touched there all what you posted and what @bslon did it to. Btw, the designer of your Aerial speakers by coincidence was the engineer in chief on ADS and he was the personal designer of my vintage  Professional Monitors ADS L2030 speakers, after ADS he started his own company: Aerial.

 

R.

Dear @daveyf  :I can see in your system the Kleos and I think the BM Ruby.

Permit me ask: why have you preference for the LOMC cartridges?.Btw, I own the Kleos and owned all Ruby versions.

 

R.

Dear @mglik  :I don't own the Epoch 3 but I own severalvintage Grado ones where the  TLZ is from where the your cartridge came on design and main difference is that the TLZ does not usegold wire and its cartridge body is plastic where cantilever is not made by ruby material.

The Grado TLZ series was the Joseph Grado cartridge motor design and the next model a tophad a 1K price in those old times.

So, I think in good " hands " with. The main characteristic I remember ( I still own the TLZ ) is that is a performer that just refuse to distort no matters what.I like it but " to musical " for me and different to the London Decca you owned.

Good that you enjoy it so much.

 

R.

 

Dear @frogman  :  I think I know you on MUSIC/audio reproduction targets and of course rhythm  is at the top chatacteristic and is not for free or at random because exist several reasons behind it.

From where comes/came that live MUSIC rhythm?. Well and this is only my take about:

months ago maybe years in other Agon forum was opened a thread with a dialogue about rhythm and I participated down there and what I posted is that differences for the better or bad belongs to Transient Response here is where starts MUSIC and from that Transient Response ( instruments/audio system ) is developed the Rhythm and MUSIC Dynamics.

That first attack that @bdp24  is exactly where start Transient Response but the Rhythm that is developed depends of several issues:

first which the rhythm proposed by the MUSIC composer and is very important because  ( example ) the Orchestra Director needs a correct explicit interpretation of what the composer try to achieve and the Director must has to transmit that issue to the Orchestra players  that's why so many training sessions to show a MUSICAL score to the Hall public seated there. 

But here exist some troubles: one is the venue that has implicated part of the natural color of tha MUSIC score, then the quality level of all the player instruments and obviously their talent invloved there but each human being today can have a rhtyhm/feels and 6 hours latter a little different one due to changes in the mood or for whatever other reason.

With out transient response rhythm can exist, overall is to complicated to explain it and needs a new thread but at the end that rhythm is what makes the differences between cartridges even coming from the same manufacturer.

The ones like me that owns or listened in their system several cartridges know exactly what I'm talking about. Each cartridge has its own rhythm that sometime makes us to move our legs/foots very easy and other times not so easy or even no movements at all and yes we  all have our own rhythm too.

Cartridges with out rhythm are cartridges with bad transient response or not so good levels.

 

R.

 

Dear @rdk777  : " the MI technology. It has become my favorite cartridge now. "

 

Perhaps you need to listen the Atlas Lambda SL in your system ( really nice system you own. ) against the Hyperion that I know why you like it.

The thread is not a competition but to talk about first hamd cartridge experiences in between. An agoner posted  in the last few weeks his preference of that Lyra over the Hyperion, he owned both along the Orton Diamond that he like it too.

 

" haven't had the need to try MM's . " well I think that it's not necesssarily a " need " but only an additional experience when you own two respectable phono stages to listen MM cartridges. 

 

R.

 

Dear @dogberry  I can live with the LP-S or London Decca but not the MP 500 that's a good cartridge but nothing more than that.

 

R.

Dear @soix ​@billstevenson  :  Both are rigth as is @knock1  ( please read wmy answer posted to him.

The issue is only these:

 

How do you know a flugehorn kind of sound, or the kind of sound of a double bass or a piano instrument if you never heard it live?

In this thread what we will try to find out is which kind of cartridge design/cartridge motor ( everything the same that is a premise on the OP. ) performs faithful and accurated to MUSIC.

 

Tha's all. I'm not trying to analize live MUSIC and all its implications involved or the recording proccess: NO.

 

R.

Dear @knock1 : " I always picked center of the main floor, the difference in just a few rows was really something. Therefore it comes a conundrum, how one is to know the "correct" sound of an orchestra, a band or an instrument itself?  "

 

We can't know for sure but only when we seated in the venuelistening it.

I almost always ( for comparisons. ) talk of live MUSIC as reference.If we don't attend often/frequently to listen live MUSIC thenagainst what we are comparing what we listen in the home room/system. We just can't do it and with out first hand live MUSIC experiences we only can say that what we are listening in our home audio system is " what I like ".

No,wecan't mimic in any home roo/system the live MUSIC experiencesbut if we are interested in true MUSIC enjoyment then that must be our reference and yes as you posted :

 

" I think that that comparison to LIVE performance is a very complex issue. "

 

But for me it's themoreideal tool at our handstomake those kind of tests.

 

R.

 

 

Dear @bdp24  : " Startling attack, immediacy, presence, full-bodied tonality, dynamics, and imaging.  "

 

I know very well wat you are talking about due that I not only listened to the London Decca but I owned two other cantileverless cartridge from Ikeda LOMC that were the REX9 and 9C.

MUSIC and MUSIC quality levels belongs to Transient Response in a home audio system or live MUSIC.

hat Transient Response is what gives us first than all immediacy followed by dynamics.

Your other adjectives are good in cantileverless design cartridges but other design cartridges even can have a little advantage.

Cantileverless cartridge design is not perfect and one f its trade  offs is its tracking abilities due that are not very good to " negociates " high velocity recorded grooves.

Can I live with the London? sure I can, is very good performer and good that you appreciated in that way.

 

R.

Dear @jdougs  : Yes, to make this kind of comparisons I agree with you on the crucial importance of phono stage.

 

Now, your Umami Red is a LOMC cartridge that is a true challenge for LOMC cartridge in the over 10K price range, so you are in good hands.

 

R.

Dear @lewm  : " if you put a gun to my head, I’d say I prefer MI. "

Well. I know which MI cartridges you own because I still own or owned for some years ( including MP500 that's moving permalloy. ) and well rigth now I have mounted two MM cartridges and 1 HOMC that overall performs better ( not day and nigth differences. ) than your MI samples and I own several LOMC cartridges that do the same and of course that your samples could be better that some other kind of designs.

God to know your preference.

 

R.

 

 

Dear @jhnnrrs  : So, your post means that that is your way of thinking as PM? I have to say that for years I had a suscription at IAR. I respect his opinion but that adjective he used could means several things and in reality for me it's not very clear.

Could you explain it in a widest way?. Thank's.

 

R.

Dear @mke246  : Well, your kind of audio " fun " is a very specialized for say the least and I could think that almost no one out there " lives " as you.

Anyway, is interesting that you experienced lower distortion levels in the SG design and even at inner grooves.

I hasd and listened in diffeent top room/systems as 4 times that Srain Gauge you own and against top LOMC cartridges the differences are significant and nit for the better.

My first time with was in top system with MBL speakers and I just can't tlerate its distorted high frequency range tonality that is not near my near field seated live MUSIC experiences. No, it's not a bad cartridge design and unfortunatelly we have to listen it through its dedicated phono stage so this is an additional " variable " in any comparison due that it's not the usual with other cartridge designs.

Good that work for your dedicated audio world. Maybe in the future you can try your SG with today analog LP's.

R.

Dear @dogberry  : Yes in audio and specially in the analog alternative always exist trade-offs.

 

You said you are very happy with your MI and that's good, I like MI too but everything the same ( pprice no object or mid price high end cartridges or even low prices. ) your choice is MI or it is only the one whci today makes you happy?

 

R.

Dear @knock1  : " but the sonic differences were noticeable to me. "

 

against live MUSIC?  I ask because you posted  that's " a personal preference " and I not disagree with you but that preference is against live MUSIC' this is the issue.

 

R.