Manley Chinook SE MK2

I am user of a Phon' and DAC that uses 2 x 6922/ECC88 Tubes.

The Chinook has 4 x 6922 in the circuit. I would class this as fortunate as seeking out a quad matched tube set can be a challenge but not impossible.

I have done extensive Tube Rolling along with a friend with a similar device using 2 x ECC88's.

Our discoveries have been Jaw Dropping in relation to how a Tubes influence can transform the presentation and create a sonic not wanting to be changed.

There is good news and bad News in the earlier Trials, it was Tubes from the early 1960's that proved to be the very best selection.

My friend who is a Two Generation Tube collector, has continued trying different Brands and discovered a Tube easier to acquire, that offers a substantial amount in comparison to the Vintage Tubes.

My suggestion is, before the Chinook is demo'd against a more expensive Phon' Model, it may be well worth the time and nominal expense to experience the Phon' with different Tubes.

Disclaimer: Both myself and friend use Valve Power Amp's and ESL Speakers and are adverse to Valve Bottom Frequency Bloom, as well as a Projected Presence of the Upper most Frequencies.

We both share an attraction for what would be considered, a Bias toward the Mid Range and Upper Frequencies being in Harmony with each and the Bass has a clear defined edge at it decays.      

I stand by my suggestion that experiencing a Valve Exchange, could prove to be all that is necessary to discover the sonic that is more of an attraction to yourself, and even possibly an attraction that comfortably fends of other Phon' Models. I am not seeing where the method fails to be a experience that could prove to being cost effective, as a means to make a change. 

For myself to have my E88CC Phon' superseded, it took a Bespoke Built Valve Input/Valve Output design to achieve this. The E88CC is still used and has proven to be my most preferred with a Head Amp coupled to it. It is not one that is a relegated to being a 'sell on' item or to being a 'storage' item either.

The CCa referred to earlier was a Matched Pair demo'd in my DAC, but the Siemens & Halske early 60's E88CC's were the ones selected over all Tubes offered as a loan for the Tube Rolling experience.

Early 60's Mullard E88CC's were selected for the Phon' over the ones used in the DAC and all others loaned.    

I have an early version Mr Nixie DIGNA Valve Hybrid MM/MC Phonostage that has undergone modification that enables the 6922/ECC88/E88CC Tubes to be used.

Even more recently I have been introduced to the use of Low Eddy RCA connections used on both Chassis and Cables. This is another adaption not carrying too much expense to achieve, that is very much worthwhile considering if one feels there is more desired to be extracted from signal path of a electrical device. 

In a system I am very familiar with and one that has been used when I have been a participant in offering ears as part of development works for Audio products being produced. As part of R&D, I have been A/B compared a SS Phonostage and Interconnect Cables with original supplied RCA's and as the design with the RCA connectors swapped to Low Eddy models. The impression left on myself after experiencing the Low Eddy RCA's mounted onto the Chassis and Terminating the Cables, is that this is something I intend on adopting within my own system where it is possible to achieve. The veil/smearing that is removed, alone as a perceived improvement is quite something. The additional perceivable benefits where the  shaping and envelope of the notes and vocal that manifested is totally wanted to be experienced again. 

Any device out of Warranty could easily undergo such an alteration. 

I am not advocating Brands, I am letting it be known about a experience I had.

This is very different to having a discussion about, when discussing Cables with the Electronics Engineer who has commission built important devices in my system, the EE will not discuss anything in any length, as so called specialised Cable is a waste of time in their view.

My experiences had, where using two identical design Phonostages have had one with a typical chassis mount RCA and the other with a Low Eddy design RCA.

Using Low Eddy RCA's for terminating a Cable in conjunction with Low Eddy RCA's mounted on a chassis has had a outcome where the impression made has been with much more substance than that from a typical RCA Cable > Chassis configuration. A Low Eddy RCA used to terminate a cable being used in conjunction with a typical chassis mounted RCA, does not separate itself much from a typical RCA configuration. The real magic occurs when Cable and Chassis are using Low Eddy RCA's to create the connection.

As said this is not a expensive interface to create, it is the one I intend on aiming for throughout my system. 

@lewm As your experience of modifying RCA Cables to use KLE RCA's (Hopefully the Harmony Range) has proved to be a satisfying outcome, then my suggestion of attaching a terminated Cable with a Pure Copper Signal Pin on the RCA to a Chassis Mounted RCA connector produced with a Pure Copper contact for the Signal will be agreeable.

Where we are going to differ is the Low Eddy approach.

KLE Harmony as far as I am aware are well known for being a Pure Copper Signal path, but my knowledge a Low Eddy property being attributed to this RCA design is not known to myself.

Advocates I know of KLE Harmony in a previous school of thought are not using the Harmony on their Cables when working with the Low Eddy approach.

Cable Termination and Chassis Mount RCA's are both the same Brand.

To help reinforce the understanding of these individual developed conviction to the Low Eddy Approach and the Low Eddy experience I have experienced. 

The Cables being used are Two Pairs of SEAC SL 5000's.

One Pair with the SAEC selection for a RCA Termination and the other with the exchanged RCA's to a Pure Copper Low Eddy type. For demo' purposes the Low Eddy RCA Cable was used as the Input only (a modified Tonearm with Low Eddy RCA's as the termination for the Wand Wires enabled this). The Power Amp' and other set of SAEC Cables were yet to be set up with the Low Eddy RCA's.

There have been Two Identical Phon's Designs available, both with PC Triple C internal wiring, the only difference being, one has Pure Copper RCA's and the other the Low Eddy Pure Copper RCA's. 

I have made it know how the experience has made an impression on myself, and follow up talks about the impression made on the system owner with the Power Amp and other Cables in use with Low Eddy RCA's has left me knowing this is a path I intend on following.

As stated, to experience as I have, does not cost much if the SAEC Cables are not selected as the Cables for the initial experience to be had.

As for your suggestion about component exchanges within the Chinook, I can't see this being anything but a positive outcome.

As a account of a past experience, I inherited much of the electrical component cost for the Prototype of the Phon' I now own and use as the main Phon'.

The EE, was adamant only matched components were to be used, which proved  not too difficult for resistors in general, the exchanges of certain Brands and Values are not too costly. Extend this to Z Foils and then Copper Foils as Cap's and monies are soon haemorrhaging when the voicing for the Phon' is not being found to suit ones own personal tastes.

My own Bespoke produced Phon' was a Pair of Prototypes for over a year as it went through various Topologies selected by the EE designer/builder. The only differences in the Phons' was my own was a Single Tonearm Input, the other a multiple Tonearm Input. The multi input model eventually ended up in the Spotlight of a well known off Individual based in the UK, with a long history of owning Companies that have been producing Vinyl Replay products. There was a intention prior to Covid to have the multi input model housed in a new casing, and take it to High End Munich to be shown of as the Companies Flagship Phon' with a £10K price tag. This same design as a result of Covid causing delays, evolved further to becoming a design which incorporated the use of bespoke wound interstage Tranx's supplied by Sowter.

The EE, was sure on a few occasions they had nailed the sonic I wanted and had me carry out a 200 mile round trip to receive demo's. There was a period of frustration as each Phon' voicing demo'd, was not endearing myself in a way that I was looking to have as a long time lived with experience, even though the voicing produced was very much aligned to what the EE was believing they was wanting for their own model.

The DIGNA Phon' was used on a few occasions during this build as a gauge of where the Prototype Phon' was heading as a produced sonic.

After a period of quiet on the Phon' Build front, and my having discussed the build s with another well known Valve Phon' producer. I was given a few pointers of how to move the Sonic produced to being the type I may be seeking.

I purchased other Z Foils Resistors of various Values in accordance to the Prototype Phon' designers acceptable Specs', but also purchased Copper Foils to a Spec' recommended, but not wanted as a Spec by the Phon' designer/builder.

My take on the designers reservations was simple, don't use these new components in your own model, put them in the circuit of my own model only.

In less than a few days I received a call informing myself to visit for a Demo' the description being the Copper Foil Cap's now being used had transformed the perception of Transparency. On arrival for the Demo' the Z Foils were also added.

The EE attempted to dupe me by saying we were to demo' his Phon' first, I was immediate in my stating whatever has occurred has been to my Phon' is all I could ask for.

My additional costs incurred to discover this level of performance have been close to £400. That as a cost is extremely acceptable as an increase, when the Phon' is the 'go to the grave with me ' Valve Design. 

The EE after the addition of alternative components was now left with two quite different voicings for the Phon', with my version being their preferred and being referred to as the upgrade version.

I am absolutely sure the Chinook will find a new level, with Low Eddy RCA's in use and careful thought out placement for Cap's and Resistors as a component change.

The overall changes, if the above methods are adopted might accumulate to $600ish though.         

  

@lewm As you are very well aware, I share experiences had especially the ones that have been able to have a profound effect during a comparison.

My own system that is not up and running at present and the Systems I get out and share in the experience of hearing in use, are ones that I personally class as being very close to being each owners unique preference and ideal as a produced sonic.

It is very fair to say, that Systems that are performing at the levels I am familiar with are ones built over many many years and the selections made by the owners   have great produced set ups that have notable resolving strengths. Night > Day changes are not to be found in these set ups, a change is reduced to where subtleties are detected as being perceived. Such subtleties can be as simple as a  Veiled/Obscureness on a recording has become less obscure and much more aligned to how one feels the Sound Engineer had intended for its presence. In general the impression being detected is one that comes across as having a furthering of the fidelity that has already proven to be impressive.

I am having this experience laid out for myself on both systems heavily laden with Valve designs and Systems without a Valve in use.

I can happily see a system for myself that is the polar opposite of my my own system that is pretty much all Valve Devices downstream of the TT and CDT and  through to the Speakers.

Over the years I have met numerous owners of Phonostages, who are owners of designs belonging to All Valve, Valve Hybrid and SS. During this period I have also discussed with many individuals either face to face, as well as on a forum as a public discussion or a private discussion, methods being used to upgrade a Phon' and how they felt the changes made were perceived. 

This thread is created by a owner of a Phonostage who has inquired about: 

  "What phono preamp and how much would it take to better the Manley? I ask mainly because I have one and considering upgrading. I know it's been stated that it takes $5k upwards to better it but curious of some real world experiences."

My contribution is based on the knowledge that the Phon' in use is a Special Edition made available from Upscale Audio. The Phon' has already been modified,  there is no reason to suggest that ones suggestion that a little more thought and realisation of further modifications will not be a suitable route to consider.

My own suggestions come with a cost and I have made it clear that a outlay of $450ish might be the required budget to be considered. Incremental Spending could prove a lesser spend has been quite sufficient.

I am not one for encouraging an individual to Jump Ship and potentially lose a quick $1500 in the resale. Followed by the need to find another $3K-$4K to not get too further forward with a Sonic being produced.

The OP has made it known their recently purchased Umami Blue is still to be run in, my gut feeling, as a result of knowing what modifications to a Phon' can create, is one where I can see the OP extracting much more to their liking from the Chinook for much less monies than those that will be incurred if Brand Jumping takes place.

For the OP, the Visiting Lurker and the visitor who ends up here resulting from future searches, my suggestions are very relevant within this thread.   

@samzx12 It is good to see your first investigation of a alternative Phon' allows for a Home Demo' , a Comparison and a Return Option.

I have only heard one ,Modwright Phon' in the UK, but not the Model you have selected.

I do use a All Valve Phon' that has been voiced to suit what I class as having an attraction unique to my needs.

My learning about a Cart's voicing has put the Hana Umami Blue on my Radar to be demo'd and experienced, fortunately for yourself, this is in the home system. My instincts are strongly suggesting this Cart' will be a positive stimulus when used on conjunction with an All Valve Phon'. 

Some will be Loath to this suggestion, a SUT is a device that should not be overlooked, and by being further investigative, the outcome could become there is  even more attraction added to the sonic, if a SUT is used with any Phon' available during the Trial Period.   

My Investigations of certain exhibitions at HiFi Events has shown the Umami Blue has been the chosen Cart' for a few very expensive Vinyl Sources. The idea it is being given this role says a lot for it, hence, it has my attention for this and the idea it presents without too much Richness and the Cost is very very attractive.   

Giving Descriptions is not the easiest way to get info across.

I make it my business to have a sat in front of experience where ever possible.

It don't take much time to decide if it worth hanging around due to being impressed along with being a sociable guest and express being courteous.