Magnepans

Nature Boy,

     I agree with gdnrbob, that Ralph (atmasphere) is probably the most knowledgeable about driving Magnepans with tube amps.  I know Maggies are all a relatively stable load of 4 ohms, only dipping slightly below this at certain frequencies. There are no crazy impedance dips like some electrostatics.  I also know there are many Maggie owners who drive  them with tube amps, although I think most use more than 40 watts.

     I own an older pair of 2.7QR Magnepans and have always driven them with high powered solid state amps,  my experience being the more power the better they performed.   initially I used a 400 watt class A/B amp and currently use 1,200 watt class D monoblcks.  The bass and dynamic range of my spkrs improved with the addition of more power.

    Another solution you may want to consider is pairing a good tube preamp with a solid state amp.  If you take this route, however, it's important you match the preamp's output impedance to the amp's input impedance, the general rule being the amp's input impedance should be at least 10 times the preamp's output impedance for best performance.  If you decide to use a class D amp, however, it's also very important you match the sound of the preamp to your personal sound preference since good class D amps are very neutral and your system' sound will be mainly dictated by the sound of your preamp and sources.


     Several Audiogon members have mentioned that Magnepan does not recommend using class D amps with their spkers.  This makes absolutely no sense to me because I have found them to be ideal for driving my panels. Class D amps are relatively inexpensive, very transparent, small, efficient, run cool and usually have plenty of power.  If you don't find a suitable tube amp at an affordable price, you might want to consider finding a tube preamp you like and match it to a good class D amp.  This hybrid approach will likely give you a tube sound without so many tubes to maintain and at a reduced cost.

Hope this helped a bit,
     Tim 
    .  

All,

     In my last post I mentioned that I'd heard it mentioned that Magnepan does not reccommend using class D amps to drive their speakers.  I went to their website and found out this is not totally accurate:

     They recommend class A/B amps that are high current designs (amps that double their 8 ohm wattage into a 4 ohm load, example: 100 watts @ 8 ohms and 200 watts @ 4 ohms).  They tout this type because they claim it has worked well on Maggies for decades according to feedback from their customers.

     They state that they don't recommend class D amps because they have received reports of some shutting down when driving their 4 ohm speakers.  They further state they don't have the time or staff to keep track of which class D amps work well and which do not so therefore, in a self described effort to be conservative,  decided to just not recommend any of them.  Stating that you decline to make distinctions between amps of a specific type is not exactly a ringing endorsement but it is obviously does not rule out that some class D amps may be ideal matches for their speakers.

     The truth is that Magnepan does not recommend or state not to use class D amps, it merely states  it can't be bothered with details like which amps work well and which do not  and, besides, we already told you we  don't want to be bothered.

     Magnepan apparently can't be bothered with the fact that there are numerous class D amps that are high current and double their power from 8 to 4 ohms.  Mine are rated at 600 watts @  8 ohms and 1,200 watts @ 4 ohms and, whether Magnepan gives a hoot or not, drive their speakers very well..

Thanks,
 Tim.  

Natureboy,

     I don't want to talk you out of using tube power on the 2.5 Maggies, they have a ribbon tweeter that I would imagine sounds great driven by tubes.  The VAC Avatar is a very good tube integrated but the truth is that 60 watts may not give you enough juice to properly drive the inefficient (84 db) 2.5s, especially the woofer section.

      It may work okay if you don't play your music too loudly and your room isn't too big.  If you listen to music with strong bass, or listen at high volumes or your room is large, I think you may be happier with a powerful (300+ watts at 4 ohm) ss amp.  When I moved from 400 watts of class A/B power to 1,200 watts of class D power, the biggest benefits were the Maggies sounded much more dynamic and the bass was the best I'd ever heard on my panels.   Class D amps typically have very high Damping factors which means woofer cones and panels are very well controlled  on both starts and stops.  This results in very solid, taut and tuneful bass. If good bass is important to you, you will definitely attain better bass performance with a class D amp than either the VAC or a class A/B and the more watts the better.

Good luck,
   Tim

 

  

randy11:

"or use a transistor amp (MOSFETS anyone) in a topology that sounds tubey

add a real tubey preamp"

The better class D amps usually do use MOSFETS due to their high quality sound and ability to turn on/off very quickly. MOSFETS are excellent output devices/transistors that sound great and are typically used  in the better class A  and class D amps. 

If natureboy wants a real tubey sound, pairing a real tubey preamp with a class D amp will deliver that sound because they are very neutral and will just faithfully ampify the output of the preamp without any alteration.  This is exactly why I recommended  this combo to him in my initial post.  A VAC preamp paired with a Wyred amp, or any similarly good class D amp, would likely be a very good solution.  

Natureboy,

     I think a Vac pre-amp properly matched in impedance to a good class D amp and connected with quality XLR interconnects, would result in a sound very similar to your Avatar but with significantly more power.  Most good class D amps offer no risk in-home trial periods of up to 30 days.  If you're not satisfied, you can return it at no, or a minimal, charge.  

     If you decide on this route, I'm fairly certain you'll get plenty of good suggestions here on this thread concerning which amp  to match to your preamp choice if you request assistance. Again, my opinion is that a VAC preamp is a great choice but almost any preamp you choose can probably be matched to a good amp within your budget..

Thanks,
  Tim

stewart10722,

     I agree that the Bryston  28BSST2  mono-block amps would probably be the best sounding amps for Natureboy's 2.5 speakers.      
     The bad news is that a pair of these mono-blocs new were about $15,000  (Natureboy didn't state his budget but I assumed it wasn't unlimited), they're huge and weigh about 100 lbs/ each, are very inefficient and emit a tremendous amount of heat.

     Good class D mono amps (such as Wyred, Bel Canto or D-Sonic), in the opinion of 6Moons reviews, are about 90% as good at 1/4 the price or less. Plus they're small, weigh about 10 lbs/each, are very efficient and emit very little heat.  

     Natureboy will need to decide which factors are most important to him.

Tim 



     

  

stewart0722,

     Thanks for your clarification.  I agree with everything you stated in your last post, especially that flea watt tube amps should be avoided.  But I don't think you or I consider the VAC Avatar to be a flea watt amp at 60 watts and with a solid power supply. 

     natureboy,

     I think members could better assist you if you declared a budget for your potential new amplification purchase..  As you know, there are a wide range of amp options for driving Magnepans.  

    Through stewart's personal experience, he can attest that either the Bryston 28s or 7s will likely drive  your 2.5 speakers very well since they work so well on his 3.7s.  I have no reason to doubt that either amp would be a good choice for the 2.5s.

     Through my own and several other posters' personal experiences on this thread, we can attest that high powered class D amps (Wyred, Bel Canto and D-Sonic) will also likely drive your speakers well  since they drive our Magnepans so well.  I tend to think all these amps (including both Brystons) will drive the 2.5s well and that you will need to decide between them based on personal auditions and your budget.  

     What you don't know at this point, however, is how well your current VAC Avatar integrated will drive your Magnepan 2.5s.   I think the best approach would be to thoroughly test out your VAC on the 2.5s prior to considering any changes.  When I state 'thoroughly test out' I mean not only that it sounds good to you but also that it drives them effortlessly at your normal listening levels and that there is sufficient detail, 3-D sound staging and headroom in your opinion.  

     If you're not totally satisfied with the VAC's performance, then at least you have some very good suggestions for possible alternatives.

Tim

       

stewart0722,

     The Magnepan 2.5R are 84db (the 3.7 are 86db and the 2.7 are 87db)..  I would consider all of these as inefficient speakers but not sufficiently so to rule out the use of the 60 watt Vac Avatar as long as the room isn't too large and the volume ismoderate. The speaker's 4 ohm impedance may be a bigger issue, however, the VAC does have 4 ohm  speaker taps.  I don't think we know enough about natureboy's room, budget or listening habits to rule out the use of his VAC.

    I think your suggestion of the Emerald Physics 100.2, (currently on sale for $599) may be a good match for the 2.5s.  I own a 100.2SE(150 watts/ch @ 4 ohms)  and use it in bridged mode(450 watts@ 4 ohms) for my CC3 center channel.  When I first received it I tried it out in stereo mode on my 2.7s (just out of curiosity) and it drove them very well; very good bass,  very dynamic,dead quiet and finely detailed  with a very sweet and smooth mid-range and treble.  It uses an analog power supply(not a switch mode power supply) and the amp is stable down to 2 ohms.  Of the 3 brands of class D amps I own, I think the Emerald Physics has the most tube-like mid-range and treble while still possessing the typical class D excellent bass response. 

    While I think this amp in stereo would perform very well driving Natureboy's 2.5s with its 100 watts/ch, I think buying 2 and bridging both to mono for 250 watts/ch is likely to give natureboy the best performance from his 2.5s, well worth the added expense.  


Tim   

     

natureboy,

    As stewart0722 mentioned, the 2.5/R are older speakers circa 1987.  They have a freq. range of 37-40,000 hz +/- 3 db.  A big plus of these spkrs is that they have the very good true ribbon tweeter panel section, not the QR (Quasi-ribbon)  tweeter panel section used in some other Maggies. 

     Here's my opinion of the sound quality performance heirarchy of Magnepan spkrs I think you're considering (from best to least in sound quality performance):

1. 3.7i  - Circa 2014,  $5,995/pr. 

2. 3.7/R -Circa 2011,  $5,495/pr.

3. 3.6/R -Circa 2000, $ used/pr.?

4. 2.5/R- Circa 1987 $ used/pr.?

5. 1.7i-  Circa 2014 $1,995/pr.



     These rankings are just my opinion and others may disagree.  I'm not going to go into great detail to explain my rankings or the differences between the models.

       I also want to add that I've auditioned all of these, with the only exceptions being the "i" versions,  at audio stores only  and not in my system/room.

      I ranked  the 1.7 and 3.7 "i" versions superior to the base models of each based on their overwhelmingly opinions of the "i" versions superiority by professional audio reviewers and my own opinion that Magnepan would not have added these versions unless they were convinced that  both were significant  improvements.  

     I believe the 2.5/R is likely the best value of the bunch since it has the excellent true ribbon tweeter section and would be the least expensive.  The  3.6, 3.7 and 3.7i, in my opinion,  are going to be clearly superior to the 2.5  but I believe the most noticeable difference will be the improvement in bass performance which is significantly more effective on the 3.6 and above.  Used or demo versions of 3.6/R and 3.7/R may also represent bargains. 

     If you have a local Magnepan dealer, you should visit and audition some of these for yourself.  The dealer may even allow you to home demo some.  

Thanks,
  Tim

natureboy,

stewart0722 stated:

" Whoever said that the 2.5 sounds better than a 1.7i needs to go hear the 1.7i (and he said he had not)......I have heard both of them (in the case of the 2.5 though, it was a quarter of a century ago!)"

     Focusing on what is the best solution for you, I think stewart made 2 good points in his last post and I want to add a 3rd point:

1.  I actually have not listened to the newish 1.7i Magnepans  and stewart may be correct that they perform better than the much older 2.5/R. They have also received extremely good reviews from owners and professional audio reviewers. The best approach is for you to demo them and decide for yourself. 
 
2.  He's also correct about the 2.5/R becoming 30 yrs old next year.  There have been issues with older Magnepans delaminating (the glue ages and the bond holding the magnets to the mylar panels weakens or fails.  I bought a used pair of IIB in the mid-1980s that this eventually happened to and they made a flapping sound when played too loudly.  You'd need to either demo the used 2.5/R carefully before purchasing or, worse case, be willing to send them to Magnepan for repairs.  Magnepan switched glue vendors around the mid 80s  and believe this mainly
remedied the issue but there are still a lot of their speakers out there that did, or may, delaminate.

3.  Magnepan has a special promotion on the 1.7i until 1/1/2017. Ever bought yourself a 'potential' $2,000 Xmas gift?  If you don't have a nearby Magnepan dealer, Magnepan will ship a pair to your house and give you 30 days to try them out.  If you  don't want to keep them, you can send them back for a full refund (with free shipping both ways) and they'll give you $100 just for trying them.  The link below lists the details:

http://www.magnepan.com/model_17

     My current thinking is that the 1.7i is probably your better solution since they're likely to perform better, will be brand new with a full 3 yr. warranty, are relatively inexpensive,
you get to choose the trim and cloth color that you like best, they look beautiful and are just a touch smaller than the 2.5/R ( the 2.5 are 22"W x 71"H x 2"D and the 1.7 are 19"W x 65"H x 2"D).

     The original 1.7 are not upgradeible to the "i" version like the 3.7 are. Neither  the 1.7 or 1.7i  have the 'true ribbon' tweeter (and it's not an option) but they're 1/3rd the price of the 3.7i.  Yes, the 3.7i will perform better than the 1,7i. Will the 'true ribbon' tweeter and better bass performance of the 3.7i be worth the additional $4,000 to you?  You need to visit your local Magnepan dealer to find out for yourself.  A good dealer will allow you to take demo pairs to compare in your system.

     If you agree that newer Magnepans are a better choice, I think your only remaining decision is amplification. I'm having a little trouble here because I don't know your budget.   Here are a few thoughts/options until you tell us:

1. No matter which Magnepans you ultimately decide on, try them out with your VAC Avatar first and only explore other options if you're not completely happy with the combination.
2. Use your VAC as a pre-amp and pair it with a high- powered  amp; probably best to try different typologies to determine your preference (tube,class A, A/B and D)
3. In my opinion, to get the best results out of any Magnepans, the best method is to pair a good tube pre-amp you really like the sound of with a high-powered  stereo amp or mono-blocks of any type (tube or solid state). If sound quality is the top concern and budget is not, there are too many good choices to mention only a few.  If sound quality is important but cost is too, then we'd need your budget to offer useful suggestions. The options become more limited as your budget decreases but I think you'll still receive some good suggestions.

Thanks,
Tim

natureboy,

     Can you give us a rough estimate of what you're willing to budget for:

1. Magnepans( 2.5R, 1.7i, 3.7 or 3.7i)

2. Speaker cables

3. Possible mods to speakers

     Just a range you're willing to pay for each is sufficient.

Thanks,
  Tim

     jhills,
     Very good useful info on your Rogue Cronus Magnum II tube integrated working so well on your 1.7s. It would probably drive the 1.7is equally well.  
    The issue becomes whether natureboy's budget is sufficient to cover the cost for the 1.7i speakers($2,000/pr.)  and Rogue Cronus Magnum 2 integrated 100 watt tube amp ($2,500) for a total of $4,500.  I find it strange and perplexing that he has demonstrated such a reluctance to reveal any budgetary info and which Magnepans (2.5R, 1.7, 1.7i, 3.7 or 3.7i) he's currently  leaning towards.  This is all required info that needs to be considered prior to any of us offering much meaningful advise to him. 
    
     With a total lack of even a rough approximation of  budgetarynumbers  coming forth from the natureboy,  I doubt we can offer him much useful advise.

      I've decided to match my level of concern to his,
                                Tim

stewart10722,

     Good point about this thread being useful for future browsers deciding on tube vs. ss for magnepans.  

     I think this thread faded out due to the OP not staying involved and drifting away.
     A bit frustrating but no big deal.
Later,
  Tim

Hi natureboy,

     I understand your reservations about committing to a budget but I think you'll be glad you did since members can now offer more specific options knowing they'll be financially acceptable to you.

    I'm going to start with some general advice rather than specific options:

Speakers ($1,500-2000 budget):
      Before you decide on a specific Magnepan speaker model, I think you should do some homework by listening to them in person.  Hopefully, there's a Magnepan dealer within a reasonable driving distance from your home.  Magnepan's website offers a dealer locator tool to assist you at www,magnepan.com

     You should at least be able to audition and compare the 1.7, 1.7i, 3.7 and 3.7i.  Listening to the 2.5R may not be possible unless there's a seller of a used pair near you.  
    In 2004, I was in a similar situation.  My aging Magnepan IIBs were starting to de-laminate and I was looking to update.  I auditioned the 1.6QR($1,700/pr. then) at a local dealer and was trying to decide between these and a used pair of 2.7QR ($2,200 new in 1994 but seller asking for $1,200 used in 2004) from a seller about 250 miles away.  I liked the 1.6 but thought they were a bit bright in the treble (possibly not completely broken in yet) and weak in the bass.  I bought the 2.7qr for $1,000 without even hearing them based on owners' reports that the treble was smoother and sweeter than the 1.6 and the fact the 2.7 were 3-ways and had a large panel section.devoted exclusively to bass frequencies. I really wanted the 3.6R but they were way outside my budget at that time.  In retrospect, I made the right choice but know I took a big risk and was a bit fortunate, too.

     I think you 're likely to prefer the 3.7 or 3.7i to the 1.7 and 1.7i and will need to decide if the difference is worth the difference in price. From what I've read from owners and professional reviewers. however, the 1.7i is extremely good and may offer the most value for the price and be the biggest bargain.  You need to decide for yourself and you could always plan an upgrade to the 3.7or 3.7i at a future time.

Amps ($1,00-2,000 budget):
     The most important thing you need to determine is whether your VAC Avatar tubed integrated can properly drive Magnepans.  I believe the only meaningful method for doing this is trying it and for you to judge for yourself.  

     I don't have any experience with tube amps driving Magnepans so I cannot give you much assistance but others who do have basically stated "maybe" and that more wattage may be required.  
     However, I do have substantial experience driving Magnepans with solid state amps of various types and various wattages.  My advice is that high current amps (those that double their wattage going from 8 ohm to 4 ohm speaker loads) perform very well on Magnepans whether they're class A, A/B or D and that performance improves progressively as wattage increases.
      The most impressive improvement I experienced on my Magnepans (2.7qr that are 87db efficient) was moving from a 400 watt/ch class A/B amp to 1,200 watt/ch class D mono-blocks. It resulted in attaining the best performance from my speakers I've heard thus far, especially in the bass, an effortless presentation overall  and an obvious increase in dynamic range.

     Another  option would be to use your VAC Avatar as a tube pre-amp and pair it with a high current, or at least higher wattage, tube, class A, A/B or D amp of your choice.   Or sell the Avatar and do the same with a tube pre-amp of your choice. I am very confident that this option will work no matter which Magnepan you decide to purchase.  Based on my experience, I would strongly recommend a powerful class D amp would work best. 

Speaker Mods ($500 budget):

       If you wind up buying the 2.5R, 1.7i or 3.7i, the only mod I can even think of be Sound Anchor or Myestands for them to help make them more rigid.  However, I view these as refinements that are not initially required and can be added later if at all.


Tim    

     
 

hifidream,

     Congrats on choosing to drive your 20.1 Magnepans utilizing 2 class D Benchmark AHB2 amps (one for highs and one for lows with an active crossover). What a great combination!

     Excellent speakers driven by excellent amps, no wonder you and your father are so pleased with the results. It seems like you  have become, as I have, a very pleased user of class D amps driving Magnepans.  

     Class D amps driving Magnepans, and likely many other speakers that require substantial power for best results, are such a good match that I'd suggest that anyone looking for new amplification should audition a good class D amp before purchasing anything else.

Enjoy,
 Tim