Pettyofficer,
It's called market forces. Why on earth would anyone want to carry records, tapes, CDs etc anymore? The freedom to have your music with you where ever you go is wonderful.
Any sonic issues are only about the choice of equipment. The file format has no sound. It is the the master. Not a version of the master tape. |
I think a lot of you guys need to buy better gear. If you feel a good hard drive based system sounds worse than any other makes wonder about the sanity of many audiophiles here.
I understand that some systems sound better than others. In that case you need to find/ choose a better performing set up.
If you listen to music made in the last 10 years or so, it is highly likely it was recorded on such systems in the 1st place. It's only a file (wav/Aiff) being played back. Get yourself one of the better Weiss FW DACs. The only disappointment will be the emptiness of the bank account. But sonics will be fine. Use decent cables & keep the computer power isolated from the rest of the system. |
Charlesdad,
I pretty much agree with you. But the most important factor which you have not probably experienced yet is via a computer set up, especially if controlled via an iPad, brings a whole different aspect to your listening sessions.
With the best will in the world, with a CD player one seems to revolve around a certain amount of disks. The ones at the front of the pile usually!
With a server based system I have found I listen to music I forgot I had or just never got around to listening to.
The upshot is I listen to way more music. If I am not mistaken this is the whole point of Audiophilia. The gear should facilitate music listening. Not the other way around. With care the sonics are of the finest order too.
Yes it's a drag to import everything. It took me years. But it's done. Now I just enjoy with full artwork & information. I cannot imagine going back. It would be like watching TV without a remote control. Not flicking to see what else is on.
When we have listening sessions we pass the pad around for people to choose the next track or album. It is a wonderful way to enjoy music. |
Hi Charlesdad,
I don't wish to labor the point, but as soon as you have
an iPad as your controller for your library you will find getting up to flick through CDs crude & slow. No matter how well organised you may be.
It's just one of those things. Once you start, you will suddenly realize what
a hassle/inconvenience CDs are. Something like going back to flipping
over a record to listen to side 2 after having CDs. Let alone being able to listen to the whole album or flick through to find favourite tracks from your chair. Now you can cross reference artists, search directly for songs,artists albums, set up play lists. I have started to labor the point... Sorry!
It's such a wonderful way to enjoy your music collection. I guarantee you will be doing it. It's just a matter of when?
I had many thousands of CDs & it took dedication to find high quality artwork & clearing up the odd glitch in the listings. iTunes is a bit better now
but at the time it could do the odd strange thing. It's better now. Once you start the sooner it will be done. |
Pettyofficer,
I think you are wrong. The file type is irrelevant. MP3s are a tired format now. It costs no more or less to have 1 file type over another unless size is an issue. Theses days memory is cheap so not a big deal.
As for the gear it's self, one will always be better than another. But on the whole they are not bad. If you want SOTA, as always you will be entering
expensive specialist ground. But nowhere near the 30k cd players of old.
You should try the headphone output on the iPad. I have had specialist headphone amps that cost more than the iPad & had nowhere near the quality, let alone all the functionality. It is all moving in the right direction.
You watch with the down turn in the world economy how it shakes out. It will have to become good & cheap, otherwise no one will be interested. |
I find it shocking how many dinosaurs there are still going on about vinyl & CD transports/players. It's over. The finest sound I have ever had is via a server via FireWire into modern DAC. Zero jitter is the key & attention to detail in your set up.
If you want a version of the recording then carry on with your TT. Computer systems are by far the best way to enjoy your collection. |
Hi Pettyofficer,
I understand your point. It can be confusing out there. My experience is that you have to do the basics 1st with computer audio. Obviously crap in crap out.
So choose your format. Let's forget MP3s. Let's forget lossy data compression. Have enough memory to run the operating system & whatever software you use.
Then let's get into software. iTunes to me is the best library front end for convience, but for sonics you do need something like Amarra or Puremusic etc to get the best signal to your DAC. I like the sound running from RAM.
Keep your computer power away from the systems power & get good cables.
From there you have a hope in hell of getting good sound, but the DAC is really important. The finest I know is the new Weiss Medea + FW. It is utterly amazing. Making the finest digital from only a few years ago sound metallic & confused. Even the glorious DCS which at the time was smooth & natural when compared to the other reference DACs.
For old school vinyl guys & people who love a coloured sound or rolled off
warm sounding systems, you will need to match your amp etc carefully as the sound from the DAC is pure & untouched. Nothing added nothing taken away.
But I get the impression many here like sound touched & different to the master. If you are that guy, you will need to play around. But what came from your HD is what came out of the recording studio. That was the dream...
The tweaking is another story, but if your system is good & balanced you don't need anything else. Sit back & enjoy record after record from the hit seat. |
Tomcy6,
You seem to be forgetting that the musicians in the studio are hearing the output from a computer. I know of few people who still record totally in the analogue domain. Trust me as that is my profession.
Also my point is that the rest of the system is where you would do your tuning. As I said in an earlier post, the output of the DAC is pretty much the same as the master "tape". Unlike in days gone by.
If you feel some vinyl is closer your are kidding yourself. That's not to say it cannot sound good, but not as the original. |
Tomcy6,
that is probably true for a generation, but remember there are generations now who have never heard vinyl. I have a friend who's son stayed with his brother (a vinyl nut) & came back saying he had all these big black CDs!
Very soon DACs will come with not only room correction, but filters that copy this sound or that at uber bandwidths. You will be able to have your cake & eat it. But don't forget all this is recording dependant. I have great sounding 44.1/16 recordings as well as 24/192.
In the pro market many of the plug ins that have copied classic kit are pretty good. They have come a long way. Things like tape saturation, limiting, compression, reverbs, distortion etc. The well heeled will notice, but as it develops it gets harder & harder to tell the difference between the real kit and the algorithm.
All modern pro studio hardware is at least 24/192. So it is no big deal to make available downloads of high bandwidth recordings. It's only a file. Not a disk reading issue.
Soon your whole library will be on a cloud accessible from anywhere at anytime. It will be great. It's damn good now! Embrace it.
If love to fiddle with your kit you will still be able to play with cables, tubes etc if you wish. At least you will know the source is as good as the original master. |
I have no idea why pettyofficer keeps on about the format?The file is the format. If the file is copied from the "master" it is the same whether it's a flac,aiff,wav.
I think your gripe is about hardware. But thats just as it has always been. it's about which hardware you choose. Forget the format issue. The file can be any resolution you ask for. It makes little difference to download 16/44.1 or 24/96 or 24/196. The record label won't care how many bits it is!
Your problem seems to be about the hardwares tonal qualities. I would not worry about that. A little research & set up is all thats needed. Think of all those phono stages, arms,motors & cartridges people complain about. It's the same issue, Just its a computer & operating system this time |
Personally I'm glad Pettyofficer can post his opinions & share ideas here. Many died & suffered for us to have free speech. Let's not forget that.
The problems start when no one listens to each others points & ignores the experiences of others. Especially to those who have wide experience & knowledge in these fields. There are many here.
It would seem Pettyofficer has not heard a nicely set up server system. Remember it is what music today is actually recorded & mainly mixed on!
So unlike in any other period in history, the file/format you are playing on your system is that that was recorded in the studio(as long as it is not data compressed). So this format argument is kind of irrelevant.
Surely his issue is with some dodgy DAC/amp/speaker/cables combination? Or just a love for the short comings of an old format which he has gotten used to & likes the sound of. Not the reading of the data.
If you want tips please ask, don't just say its not as good as my TT or even as good as my old CDP! The joy in this hobby is to search & experience to find the right sound for you.
Digital playback is here to stay. It can do anything you want sonically. It gets better,cheaper,smaller and more flexible by the year. What's not to love about that? Let's look forwards not backwards. If you like the past so much we can digitise it for you so you can take into the future! Lol. |
Hi pettyofficer,
The main reason there aren't more computers designed for music is there is no need. There are some laptops that are said to be for music, but they are only an attempt to have a built in sound card & reasonable ins & outs on the go for recording etc.
Nearly every studio I have been in uses a standard powerful mac as a brain. The converters etc are external hardware devices. I.e protools, Apogee, UAD,RME,Weiss, Prism sound, metric halo. Mainly FireWire.
Some have specially set up PCs. I use both PC & Mac.
The question should be why are there no standards in Hifi? Not just computer audio. Choice is a good thing until there is too much. Then there is only confusion.
Hifi is full of confusion due to many many opinions about what is good or best. Mainly by people who don't know what the original sound of the record they are playing actually was! So then we get into taste. Not an exact reproduction of the master.
Computers are great levellers. My computer replaced elitist über transports. I have never looked back. Just the thought of browsing through all those disks now seems so alien. Before you leap in with " oh but the SQ..." at worst it's the same and at best it's better in SQ. By "better" i mean like the master. In my case SQ is better due to this & its more convenient & its cheaper!
A great leveller... How can you complain? If you want the finest SQ with a computer based system there are just some procedures to follow. Just workout what you want in SQ. |
Pettyofficer,
any Hifi system will have variable results. Computer based or not. My understanding of your complaint is shifting slightly now over a couple of different threads.
I think your complaint still is about set up. But it's about which version of which software you can run on what operating system. If this is the issue, then I understand.
So with that in mind you fall into a couple of camps.
1 latest version of everything. So update regularly. This is easy although a pain in the butt sometimes.
2 get it all to a point where you are happy & do not update. Just enjoy.
I must admit with a PC I recommend the later point. Although keep Security updated.
The SQ differences are pretty slight once you have set up the main software issues although functionality is probably better.
Hope this helps. |
Petty,
my last words on the subject...
A fluid format is good. It is developing & while it is developing, it still is MORE capable than any other format so far.
You do not need to do anything once you have SET UP your computer system of choice. If anything meaningful changes in the future all you will need to do is update the software.
Please read the above posts & really think about what they are saying. Stop listening to your own argument long enough to take them in.
Music is a small aspect of a much larger picture. All the arts are coming together. Film, music, photography, gaming etc will all be stored on a single system at the highest quality enabling possiblities you can only dream about now, so you better get used to an open approach. The computer will look after all the formats.
For now get yourself a Mac & bypass your current complaints about ASIO etc.
Anyway good luck. If you really actually do need some help drop me a PM. But more drivel in these threads is tedious. Sort yourself out.
Happy listening. |
Ok so not quite my last word on the subject! Thank you Pettyofficer,
Nothing is making audio irrelivant especially not me. You have been given choice these days to have everything in 1 place. Easy to control & use.
There is nothing to suggest a computer, cannot cope with processing many things. Especially something as small as processing audio. You are just plain wrong with your premiss.
We are talking about getting fine technology tuned to do what we want it to do. Maybe one OS is more stable than another or easier to use, but that's it.
You seem to have a paranoid idea that Microsoft or apple want to destroy your entertainment & make things worse. I have seen little evidence for that. I would say I have evidence it's making it better. (replacing expensive boxes while sounding even better!)
Are you the kind of guy that would go back to a model T Ford once things like the Bugatti Veyron have been invented? Or does your hair shirt just fit so well that it doesn't itch anymore?
I have not noticed technology gradually getting worse as it evolves just yet.
As a test try listening to some recordings from the 1920s & then listen to a recording from this year. Try an example from ECM. Now compare the quality. After that come back and discuss. |
Pettyofficer,
Surely you know why MP3s exist? Remember Flac/aiff/wav? Have you forgotten these files are capable of way above CD quality?
This is the point. Choice. You choose. If you want audiophile you can have it. If you want to fit as many songs as possible & are not bothered about the quality you have mp3. You just choose.
The beauty is all formats are supported. It seems you are still failing to take in the above posts.
Regarding computer support, I have said earlier try a mac. If you have a problem just pop into the store & get all the support you could wish for. They will even train you in how to use & get the best from your machine.
Please read the above posts before you type. |
Pettyofficer,
The recording is what's important. The sample rate is a bonus. You will always be able to play or convert to what you need. I doubt you will be crying too much if you had to down sample a 374k to a 192k file until you save up for whatever magical DAC comes along with silly sample rate abilities.
What is the longest you have kept an important piece of Hifi gear for? 10-15 years? Surely after that amount of time the latest this or that will have tranced what went before. Nothing lasts forever.
Would you prefer we stick with cassette, reel to reel,DAT, DCC etc? Like I said before you can keep the model T Ford. Fluid is good. At least now it's just a file on a computer. |
Pettyofficer,
You have inadvertently made my point for me. I am trying to get you to understand that today, unlike before, the hardware is irrelevant to you being able to play the software. Can you see that a computer no matter how old will always play a wav/aiff/flac/mp3/mp4 etc?
You do not need the latest and greatest computer to process a simple 2 channel audio file. Are you understanding the point yet? You can keep your money. |
Pettyofficer,
"Not so fast, Chadeffect. You still need an additional DAC
to convert 16/44, 24/44, 24/48, 24/88, 24/96, 24/176,
24/192, 24/196, and we all know 32 bit Music Files..."
No you dont need an additional DAC. All DACs will do pretty much all those rates today. If not convert the file to your DACs capability. Keep your money.
If its a choice between eating & highend audio, you had better eat and not worry about sample rates...
As I told you earlier in above posts. You do not need the latest DAC. All reasonably modern DACs can do what you need. And there are plenty of "cheap" DACs which are more than capable.
Will you really feel left out if you have to convert some crazily high sample rate to a more usable 44.1/88.2/96/192k? Will you start crying because you cannot playback 32 bit recordings when you can't afford bread to eat?
Please get a grip. You will always be able to convert files to what you need while keeping the original. Don't give any guys your money. Please eat.
But if you have enough money to eat & wish to spend on highend audio, a decent DAC giving you mind boggling quality can be 'cheap'. Espacially in a world full of people trying to sell you $100,000 speakers or $4,000 anti vibration platforms or $13,000 inter connects.
Take the fact that whatever happens now we are dealing with files. Not tapes or whatever that need specific hardware to play them. Unlike those out of date those tape machines (DATs/DCC/Minidisk/Tape decks,reel to reels etc) which are now door stops or quaint memories, you can turn your file into what you need for your DAC to process. Be it 16 bit,24 bit,32 bit or 64 bit. You choose.
Is this clear Petty? Your worst case sample rate is 16 bit. It's seems you are happy playing CDs at that.
I can tell you it will be a long while before you see real 32 bit music. The pro audio recording standard DACs are hardly there yet. They are nearly all 24 bit 192k capable with most set to record at 24 bit and 44.1 or 96k.
Unless you really want to record at 192k as an artist, which would limit a lot of the processing capabilities of the studio, it will be the above rates. I know of few studio effects processors that can do real 192k processing. The effects will dither it then bring it back up unless going analogue. So pointless. Obviously acoustic recordings like orchestras would not need the effects processing so are more likely to be true 192k. |
Lol. Pettyofficer,
There is no new sample rate every week. They are fixed. As explained above the best you will find will be 24/192k. Not that new. Nearly all DAC chips made in the last few years are really for video. So all will be more than capable of these rates.
Wipe a magnet across your drive? You just happened to trip over while carrying powerful magnets?
Maybe if you are accident prone, put your HD in a lead box or even better back up to a cloud & keep other back ups at friends houses.(ones who don't play with magnets regularly). So you will have many eggs in many baskets with no magnets. Did you have that problem with cassette? What about vinyl? Did it ever scratch or break when you dropped those magnets? What about your CDs? Ever misplace one?
Keep your lovely CDs. No one is forcing you to destroy them. Although I am surprised you don't resent them for making all those millions of $ for the record companies. Go out on the street & shout "down with profit we want it free or real cheap! "
Heart and soul hahahaha. The music industry heart & soul? The minute every artist you have heard signed the deal it was business. They got around 30% after all costs were paid back to the record company while 15-20% went to managers/lawyers. Then the record companies waved royalties for the writers for MTV to make millions. Heart and soul indeed.
Also since you seem concerned about giving money away you should consider moving away from a capitolist society. All those millions of $ keep people employed. Well millions in Asia anyway! New sample rates? You are funny. It must be living with all those magnets. Don't even get me started on those sun spots... Run Pettyofficer run! There is cover in the caves. |
Pettofficer,
You are probably right. I must be some kind of digital single processor goth as I thought that was funny. Computer music has finally crushed that last bit of hope out of me.
In fact now you mention it I just realised I am a machine. Not the HAL9000 Dave disliking type, more "The hitch hikers guide to the galaxy" Robot type...Marvin. And in a kind of Apple mac silver finish. Only my ASIO dithers all high sample rates to really low bandwidths. I always wished for an old anologue circuit to give me meaning.
Step away from the magnets! It's ok though. I was cheap, downloadable & very convenient.
I burned my CDs, and I love the smell of charred CDs in the morning. |
Talk2me,
as you went to all the trouble of getting your wadia modified, obviously even Wadia were not good enough for you. I had a statement wadia with full GNSC mods too. It was eclipsed by my multibox DCS which was the same as my computer with Amarra/FireWire into Wiess DAC. If anything the computer had better dynamics.
So if you are saying they cannot compete, you need to go and look again.
Why on earth would you be using jittery toslink? That alone will be half the problem. I seem to remember there was a issue with MacBook and which USB port is used. Could be the old ones.
You go on about your GNC mods, but then made no effort to use decent software on the computer or a better quality connection to the DAC. If you want to compare apples with apples a little more effort is needed.
I keep saying set up is everything but no one is listening. You want to listen to green pens and CD mats, but when it comes to a computer you cannot even download some playback software to try.
Its easy. Keep away from PCs and use a mac. PCs take more effort. Macs are easier to deal with. Keep audio as Aiffs with no compression( it keeps meta data in its file). Use FW port. Use bolt on output for iTunes I.e Amarra/ Puremusic etc. use decent FW cable. Keep computer power separated from system. Buy great DAC. Then you have a hope of decent sound. |
Pettyofficer,
I used a PC yesterday to playback some stuff, & I must admit it
was a pain in the ass. As I nearly always use my mac controlled via iPad
it was a very different experience. No where near the delightful experience of choosing which album to play.
So I am with you to a point. But as I keep labouring, get a mac. It just doesn't need all the knowledge & fine set up. PCs are clunky for life style use. Somehow macs are much less so.
I did the set up & now I just play music. It hardly ever dawns on my that I'm using a computer. I just see the art work on the iPad & select. |
Pettyofficer,
I'd hate to be around you if there was a real problem.
Simple steps. Take the advice, implement it & never touch the computer again. Just select the album/track & play. No pain no gain like all hifi.
Just set it up my friend. In the time it has taken you to post your various complaints here, I would have had your computer up & running. You would be enjoying music, browsing the artwork & admiring your music collection while listening to pristine audio.
Buy a server if you cannot stomach a computer. Pay a small child to input all your CDs & meta data. Then you will be finished. For the rest of your days, no matter what changes in tech, you will have your library in a standard format ready to be added.
Back up & you will never lose anything... Unless the sun spots really kick off. If that happens playing music will probably be the last thing on your mind. |
