Bigshutterbug`s comments vary vastly from Holley and Mikirob`s impression of the Lore.This could be a classic example of speaker-room acoustic interactions.How else to explain such different results of bass performance.
Regards,
Regards,
M-Lores or Aon 3: bass/imaging
Ok, yet another thread along the lines of "which speakers should I buy?" (I've read a few thousand of them lately). But my question is really coming from the fact that I've never owned floor-standers before. So I'm sort of paralyzed by the fact that I like the idea of the Tekton Mini-Lores--straight-ahead good design--but I can't audition them. "Money back" -$120 total shipping isn't my idea of money back, on my salary... On the other side of the ring currently are the Golden Ear Aons, which claim the same 38Hz bass response. So, opinions and experiences from people with a deeper background with both kinds of speakers is welcome. If not experience with these models, then experience with the underlying technologies. I'm not sure whether or not conventional wisdom regarding floorstanders vs. bookshelves applies in 2013 with these designs.
Context:
1) I'm running a class-D (solid-state-sounding Icepower) amp, and like it a lot. My listening level is only about 82dB at distance, slow-weighted peaks on an SPL meter. So no need to shake the house. Still, 87dB sensitivity seems a good minimum to be safe. This makes some contenders marginal (Dynaudio, Kef, PSB, Ascend). It suggests Tekton and Golden Ear, in particular, although I'm mainly drawn to both for their bass response spec and other design features.
2) This system will be 2-channel music only. A main goal is to switch the subwoofer off for good, since I've never liked the amount of fiddling I've had to do and haven't ever been entirely comfortable with the result.
3) I'm a sucker for a vast sound stage and good imaging, not too far back (my current Axiom M2v2 speakers put the sound stage someplace way back in the neighbor's house). I also tend to be analytical in most things.
4. Low-E on a bass guitar is about 41Hz, I've read, so this is a good target for the bass freq I'm looking to nail. I want it defined and balanced, not accentuated. But I don't want it just "implied" through harmonics (or else the sub stays on).
5. I've always put on headphones when I want to hear detail, having never owned really top-shelf speakers. I can still do that if I get something really fun from the speakers as a trade off for less detail.
Questions:
1) Reading between the lines, it seems like bass response on floor-standers is reported honestly, while on bookshelves a "38Hz" rating or the like seems really to mean roll off below 60Hz. Is that basically how it goes? E.g., Mini-lores will be flat at 38Hz while Golden Ear Aon 3 would be (to make up a number) like -9dB at 38Hz? The Aons seem to rely on wall reflections to get that bass to you, which might be perfectly fine.
2) Both imaging and air-moving bass are about driver size--or so I've read, and it makes obvious sense. Aon 3 claims 7" mid-range driver; Mini-Lore = 8" wideband driver. Seems pretty close... Comments on either or both of these speakers, based either on personal experience or informed supposition? "They" say the mini-lores are "not the most resolving speaker" etc. Hedge, hedge. Do they stack up to the imaging capabilities of smaller good bookshelves or not?
Note that for the mini-lores, I would need to do vineers and/or grills, so it'll be the same price essentially as the Aon 3s.
That's the pricepoint I'm comfortable with.
I've also auditioned the Sjofn "(The Clue)" speakers, and found them to be terrific as a pro tool, but perhaps actually too detailed and too finicky for a room not furnished around them. I'm still considering them, though. Other than the Clues, I've really never heard outstanding speakers in-depth. I have the Axioms noted above, plus Boston Acoustics A40s from 1986, still in service. That's pretty much my speaker-buying history. I can audition the Golden Ears, but it will be a day trip so won't be doing it lightly. Again, no way to hear the Tektons, but I feel pretty confident about them except for the question mark about possibly lesser imaging (versus the Aons lesser bass?). Thanks in advance for opinions and experiences. I guess this post appears to lean toward the Tektons, but in fact the GEs fit the room better, so I'm still very much open, including being open to not buying anything.
Context:
1) I'm running a class-D (solid-state-sounding Icepower) amp, and like it a lot. My listening level is only about 82dB at distance, slow-weighted peaks on an SPL meter. So no need to shake the house. Still, 87dB sensitivity seems a good minimum to be safe. This makes some contenders marginal (Dynaudio, Kef, PSB, Ascend). It suggests Tekton and Golden Ear, in particular, although I'm mainly drawn to both for their bass response spec and other design features.
2) This system will be 2-channel music only. A main goal is to switch the subwoofer off for good, since I've never liked the amount of fiddling I've had to do and haven't ever been entirely comfortable with the result.
3) I'm a sucker for a vast sound stage and good imaging, not too far back (my current Axiom M2v2 speakers put the sound stage someplace way back in the neighbor's house). I also tend to be analytical in most things.
4. Low-E on a bass guitar is about 41Hz, I've read, so this is a good target for the bass freq I'm looking to nail. I want it defined and balanced, not accentuated. But I don't want it just "implied" through harmonics (or else the sub stays on).
5. I've always put on headphones when I want to hear detail, having never owned really top-shelf speakers. I can still do that if I get something really fun from the speakers as a trade off for less detail.
Questions:
1) Reading between the lines, it seems like bass response on floor-standers is reported honestly, while on bookshelves a "38Hz" rating or the like seems really to mean roll off below 60Hz. Is that basically how it goes? E.g., Mini-lores will be flat at 38Hz while Golden Ear Aon 3 would be (to make up a number) like -9dB at 38Hz? The Aons seem to rely on wall reflections to get that bass to you, which might be perfectly fine.
2) Both imaging and air-moving bass are about driver size--or so I've read, and it makes obvious sense. Aon 3 claims 7" mid-range driver; Mini-Lore = 8" wideband driver. Seems pretty close... Comments on either or both of these speakers, based either on personal experience or informed supposition? "They" say the mini-lores are "not the most resolving speaker" etc. Hedge, hedge. Do they stack up to the imaging capabilities of smaller good bookshelves or not?
Note that for the mini-lores, I would need to do vineers and/or grills, so it'll be the same price essentially as the Aon 3s.
That's the pricepoint I'm comfortable with.
I've also auditioned the Sjofn "(The Clue)" speakers, and found them to be terrific as a pro tool, but perhaps actually too detailed and too finicky for a room not furnished around them. I'm still considering them, though. Other than the Clues, I've really never heard outstanding speakers in-depth. I have the Axioms noted above, plus Boston Acoustics A40s from 1986, still in service. That's pretty much my speaker-buying history. I can audition the Golden Ears, but it will be a day trip so won't be doing it lightly. Again, no way to hear the Tektons, but I feel pretty confident about them except for the question mark about possibly lesser imaging (versus the Aons lesser bass?). Thanks in advance for opinions and experiences. I guess this post appears to lean toward the Tektons, but in fact the GEs fit the room better, so I'm still very much open, including being open to not buying anything.
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- 23 posts total
The GoldenEar tweeter is not a conventional ribbon tweeter; it's a folded ribbon motion transformer along the lines of the Heil AMT. It's still linear out past 30khz, but is not as "hot" as a conventional ribbon tweeter. I think the reason the GoldenEar tweeter is sometimes characterized as "polite" is because it doesn't have the overshoot and ringing typical of the tweeters we're used to hearing. The Stereophile measurements show that the GoldenEar tweeter is not rolled off at all. When I auditioned the Triton 2's and the Aon 3's, the HF extension was all there, but with no harshness or excessive brightness. I consider this behavior a big plus for the GoldenEars and not a shortcoming. |
I'm still curious on a "philosophical" level, I guess, about an aspect of floorstanders versus bookshelves. At the same volume level and putting aside frequency response range, is there something qualitatively different about the two types of speakers? People talk about "feeling the music" more with floorstanders, and I wonder if that's just potential for greater volume, or if they move more air because of the larger surface area even if the relative loudness is equal to a smaller speaker. I'm having trouble with the physics. For example, the 8" driver on the M-Lores might have 200 square inches of surface vs. 150" on the 7" Aon 3 (and I know I'm fudging this: different type of driver and not accounting for how much of the diameter is "active"). Point being, the diff might be significant, even with 1" greater diameter. If I'm listening at say 80 dB on each set of speakers, will the floorstander deliver some kind of special quality because the driver is slightly larger? Ignoring individual design aspects, too, so this is a very simplistic theoretical "newbie" question. I did notice when auditioning the Sjofn Clues that they sounded "small" at low volume levels, perhaps brought out by the fact that they're designed to sit below ear level (vertical sound stage on them extends upwards with more power, becoming huge). Other notes: On the Golden Ears, only criticism I've heard, apart from some people not being accustomed to its tweater style, is that the sweet spot may be rather horizontally and/or vertically small. I'll be able to test that in-store. On bookshelves being more well designed per dollar than floorstanders in general, I suspect that might not be a factor in this particular comparison: the GEs have lots more engineering hoo-ha, plus a dealer mark-up, whereas the Tektons are factory-direct. Profit margin is probably fairly llow on both as entry-level speakers, but I would wonder therefore about something "giving" in the GEs to keep the price down with that many unusual components in it. |
Speakers are tools and you have to use the right tool for the job. There is such a thing as having too much speaker for a room. Sometimes, a floor stander is the only way to go. Sometimes, a stand mounter is the only way to go. Sometimes, you could go either way. There isn't anything philosophical about it. It's in the physics. Where floor standers are going to excel is going to be in the area of the lower frequencies by virtue of both driver size and cabinet volume. For example, look at the Paradigm Studio 40 as compared to the Studio 60. Unless I'm mistaken, they both have the same drivers, but the Studio 60s have more volume and therefor go lower. With those two, you can say that they should sound the same, except that the 60 has more bass. Where the subjective difference comes in is how each is going to sound in your room. As I mentioned above, bass response is dependent on room placement, as is imaging. Personally, I went with the 40s, because I thought they sounded faster and tighter. It was also easier to set them up because I set them up for image, without concern for the bass and backed them up with a good sub. When I tried to do that with the 60s, the bass sounded slow and muddy. For me, the combination of the 40s and the sub, sounded better than the 60s, either alone or with a sub. Now, in this case, you're comparing small speakers with a smaller driver to a larger speaker with a larger driver. I think that's sort of apples and oranges. At this point, all I can say is get the one that sounds the best in your room. You really can't choose speakers based on specs. As in my situation, I would never have dreamed that I would wind up with a pair of speakers that had 3.5" drivers in them, but they sound the best in my room. Of course, it usually takes more power to get a bookshelf to play as loudly as a floor stander, but when I turn up Diana Krall, I do not get the impression that I'm listening to small speakers. I feel like I'm sitting in a night club. You also mentioned profit margin and assume that there isn't much of one with the Tektons. I must beg to differ. When you are in the business of manufacturing a product for sale for a PROFIT, you can make it one of two ways. Keep in mind that whether you are a manufacturer using a direct sales model or a manufacturer using a retailer distribution model, you have overhead to meet before you start putting anything into your pocket. You make money, to put it simply, in one of two ways. Either with a higher profit margin to make up for smaller volume sales or a lower profit margin and higher volume sales. I'm guessing that Tekton's model is based on the former. The only point I'm trying to make is that I don't think you shouldn't assume that there isn't much mark up in the Tektons. Of course, when trying to evaluate the "value" of a purchase when comparing a direct sales product to a distributed product it becomes more difficult. What that, again, leaves us with in your situation is to go with what sounds the best. If I had to buy speakers without having heard them, I'd probably go with stand mounters, for a couple of reasons. First, because stand mounters usually image like crazy. Second, they are usually easier to setup and deal with. What really threw me off about the Tektons, was the reviewers comment about the phase shift. Something like that would make me nuts. Like listening to the music in my usual position and then deciding to kick back with my feet up on the coffee table and then noticing that the sound has changed. Or standing up and noticing again, that the sound has changed. Still, I have no doubt that the Tektons are a great bang for the buck. It also sounds like you're leaning that way and are now trying to justify that. On the other hand, it also seems like both of the speakers being discussed have short coming that may concern you, regarding what you want in a speaker. Have you considered anything else? |
TonyAngel, Since I haven't owned floorstanders (at least, not since college, when I wasn't paying attention), your experiences between the two are informative. Sounds like there's no mystery to it. Placement in this room is fixed: 1' or less from sidewalls, distance from back wall flexible, other short stuff separating the speakers, listening position at about equilateral-triangle-distance into the room, roughly halfway to the rear wall. Since the bookshelves I have are doing "ok" there, it will likely be fine for that type of speaker; however, I did move the subwoofer away from those corners to get cleaner bass, and I won't be able to do that once I rearrange the room, regardless of speaker type. So yeah, I'll start with my best guess and either change the speaker plan or furniture plan if it doesn't work. Since I'm in a small town with no hi-fi stores, I've been in the pure homework stage so far, which of course is frustrating. But I've found a lot of speakers that people (forum-type-people) like: Ascend Sierra-1, DynAudio 2/7 or Excite X12, Paradigm studio 10/20, Monitor silver RX1, Sjofn (the Clue), Decware DM945, Dali, probably others that I've forgotten. Only reason I was drawn to the Mini-Lores was that they're small for floor-standers and what owners say sounds good to me (frankly, I just want to hear them, but not that $$ badly). A lot of the other contenders either can't pretend to get by without a sub or else would be a little low in the efficiency scale, so that I'd have trouble swapping them out into my larger room if I wanted to do that. The GEs seem to stand out on most counts, so it's definitely worth starting there, plus whatever else is in the store. If it doesn't work out, I'll go down the list and keep in mind some options mentioned in this thread as well. On profit margins, a third way to make money: low profit on entry level and then jack it up quickly with each step up in the line. That doesn't negate the other economic logic you point out, but I've read on the speaker-DIY forum folks saying that it wouldn't be worth their labor time to buy those components and make the mini-Lores for $650. FWIW. |
- 23 posts total