2. analog
  3. 1216241371

lps sound bad

I am finally listening to lps after going perhaps 20 years without, due to a recent (about 3 months) investment into a vinyl rig. I'm absolutely bummed that perhaps 30 to 40% of my collection really isn't worth playing due to sonic considerations.

I have an aproximate 2,000 lp collection, nearly all are new album, record show, or garage sale purchases dating from the early 70's thru the mid 80's. These are mostly all very well preserved, with minimal wear, dust pops, scratches etc. My problem is not with the shape or cleanliness of the records (they have been hand cleaned in accordance with 'expert' advice, then cleaned again in a VPI 16.5). Nor are they mistracked, none of that inner groove distortion.

It is also not a setup issue, cartridge setup is absolutely correct, and every other parameter of setup, from the wall shelves/isolation to power cords and ICs has had careful attention.

My issue is in the mastering and/or pressing of the lps. This 30 to 40% have issues, mostly with small soundstaging and/or lack of frequency extension, especially in the bass. They simply sound small scale and lightweight, like mid-fi to me. The other 60 to 70% of my collection sound relatively huge in comparison, large, airy soundstaging, transparent, dynamic, especially the micro dynamics.

Now, the vast majority of the 30 to 40% that sound small scale are what I believe to be, original pressings of 70's rock music. The rest, mostly 50's and 60's recordings from a huge variety of genres, sound wonderful, mostly way better than my digital.

I suspect what I'm hearing is excessive compression due to poor mastering and/or pressing. At this point I'm not sure whether the main culprit is mastering or pressings. As I previously mentioned, most of these recordings were purchased in the early 70's to mid 80's, thus, I believe they are original pressings, which leaves mastering as the culprit. On the other hand, I have digital remasters of a number of these rock recording, a small number sound larger scale than their lp counterparts, which leads me to suspect pressings in some cases.

From this, I extrapolate that mastering is the culprit in most cases. Furthermore, I believe the bad sounding lps sound bad because of solid state recording studio equipment. My 50's and 60's recordings nearly all sound big, large scale, some may not have the greatest frequency extension, especially in the highs, but they all are tonally and dimensionally full, some luciously so, in the midrange. These recordings come from the heyday of tube equipment, both in the recording studio and home audio.

I should add, I'm not trying to make a case of solid state recording studios being the sole culprit here, as a small percentage of my 70's rock recordings sound large scale and satisfying. Rather I think it is solid state done on the cheap, and with bad ears on the part of the producers and engineers that is at fault. The late 60's and early 70's had more than it's fair share of crappy solid state, and most producers and engineers didn't know the first thing about quality sound (as remains the case).

Still, it seems the 50's and 60's producers and engineers could do less harm to the sound, the tube recording equipment always had the relatively voluptuous midrange. And perhaps the tube home audio of the day let them hear at least a semblance of quality, so they tried to replicate that sound in the studio.

As things stand, I'm somewhat disappointed in vinyl at this point. I was hoping these 70's rock recordings would sound much better than their cd counterparts (remastered or not). 30 to 40% of my collection is basically throw away at this point, I don't care to go through all the hassles inherent in the playing of records that sound only as good or worse than their digital counterparts.

I'm now getting the itch to buy lps new, I'm just wondering if the newly minted rock lps of classic rock are worth buying. It seems the digital remasters I have are only marginally better, in most cases, over older digital pressings. I suspect the same will hold true for vinyl, the new remasters will only sound marginally better than my original pressings.

At this point, I'm basically writing off classic rock recordings on lp. While I know classic rock can sound good on lp, the small number of exceptions I've experienced leave me highly skeptical. Future purchases will be mostly limited to recordings (of all genres) prior to the 70's. Future classic rock purchases will be mostly in digital form, for any lp purchases I will have to rely on thumbs up by reviewers I trust. Contemporary recordings are problematic as well, sound quality is all over the place in the digital recording studios, it seems to be a crapshoot, have to rely on reviewers here as well.

Vinyl setup:
VPI Scoutmaster
JMW 10.5i tonearm
SDS
Dynavector 20XL
Cayin Phono-One
sns

Showing 2 responses by humorem

humorem
4 posts
 
Hi All,
This is Tom Port. I haven't posted on a thread in years, but I would just like to say that I agree with the original poster that the average rock record does sound pretty bad. We turned the consequences of that fact into our main business, which as you probably know is selling Hot Stampers. But you don't need to pay our prices, and there's a lot you can do to get much better sound from your rock vinyl. There are many tips on the site, but here are a few to get you started.

1. Cleaning fluids make all the difference in the world. It's just amazing what modern fluids can do. We sell some, but feel free to buy them from anyone. I'm not trying to hustle your business here.

2. High quality front end. The Scoutmaster is a nice table but that acylic platter is bad news, replacing it with the super platter would help a lot. A top quality phono stage is huge too.

3. So with top quality cleaning and top quality front end sound, the next step is the cheapest and most work intensive: buy lots of copies of your favorite records. At least five, and ten is even better. You will find Hot Stampers, and you will learn all about stampers that tend to sound good or bad, and this will help guide you in the future.

That, in a nutshell, is all there is to it. The devil is in the details of course; it took me about twenty years of serious collecting and audio exploration to get to the point where I am today, but there really are no shortcuts. Whatever work you do pays off, sooner or later. With the right cleaning fluids, stereo, and plenty of copies of any title, you will find that virtually no CD or current heavy vinyl reissue can compete with the Real Thing -- maybe one out of fifty or so can, depending on what you listen for of course.

If you go to our site and read all about Joni Mitchell's Blue you will see where we are coming from, on that record and hundreds more. And if you wish to play the Blue Game, we are happy to help!
humorem
4 posts
 
Hi, with all due respect, almost every statement Atmasphere has made here is a myth which we discuss on our site when we do shootouts for some of the very records mentioned.

Just to address one: ELP's first album. The Pink Label can sound very good, but the Cotillion is clearly made from the same master tape and has much better bass and whomp factor on side two. Here is the extensive commentary from that listing:

This original Cotillion LP has THE BEST SIDE TWO WE'VE EVER HEARD! Lucky Man ROCKS on this copy like you won't believe. If you've got the system to play this one loud enough, with the bass power this album demands, you are in for a treat.

The organ that opens side two will rattle the foundation of your house if you're not careful. This music really needs that kind of megawatt reproduction to make sense. It's big bombastic prog that wants desperately to rock your world. At moderate levels it just sounds overblown and silly. At loud levels it actually CAN rock your world.

Folks, this is ANALOG at its tubey magical finest. You ain't never gonna play a CD that sounds like this as long as you live. I don't want to rain on your parade but digital media are seemingly incapable of reproducing this kind of sound. There are nice sounding CDs in the world but there aren't any that sound like this, not in my experience anyway. If you are thinking that someday a better digital system is going to come along in order to save you the trouble and expense of having to find and acquire these expensive original pressings, think again. Ain't gonna happen. This is the kind of record that shows you what's wrong with your BEST sounding CDs. (Let's not even talk about the average one in your or my collection. The less said the better.)

Although this copy is not as magical on side one as our best Brit, it's pretty close, one plus short of the coveted Triple. Side two takes the crown with Three Pluses, and deserves every one.

The Brit copies may take top honors for side one ("sweetness, openness, tubey magic, correct tonality, presence without aggressiveness, well-defined note-like bass, extended airy highs") but the Hot Stamper Cotillion copies KILL on side two. They really ROCK, with greater dynamic contrasts and seriously prodigious bass, some of the best ever committed to vinyl. The Brits are a bit too "pretty" sounding. They're too polite for this bombastic music. This music needs the whomp down below and lots of jump factor to work its magic. The Brits are super-low distortion, with a more open, sweeter sound, especially up top, but the power of the music is just not as powerful as it can be on these very special Cotillions.

This Cotillion on side one is a rare gem indeed, truly the best domestic we heard. It's not quite as smooth and sweet, but it's every bit as good in most other areas, and better in the bass. The Cotillion pressings of this album have bass that puts 99% of all the rock records in the world to shame. (And 100% of the half-speed mastered records!)

This is a case where, to get the ultimate sound, you not only need two copies, you need two copies made in different countries!

END OF SITE COMMENTARY

If you have fifty copies of this record, including plenty of imports, you will find out that the facts do not follow the logic.

Another case in point: Jethro Tull's Stand Up. The Sunray label Brit reissues consistently trounce the Pink Label originals. The commentary can be found here:

http://www.dccblowout.com/product.asp?pf_id=jethrstand%5F0108&dept_id=.

The best pink label sold for much less, and for good reason: the sound was not up to the best, and never has been.

I can cite scores, if not hundreds, of examples that break all the record collecting rules. It's what our site is all about: forget the rules, listen to the grooves. The grooves can teach you about records. Rules have a tendency to prevent you from learning about records. You're not going to play a record you "know" won't sound good, right? But what if it does?

Anyway, I don't really mean to get on anyone's case about these myths. They are all over the place. Like conventional wisdom they are comfortable and reassuring to believe, they even make a certain amount of sense, but as a practical matter they can only cause you to miss out on some great sounding pressings. We go out of way to refute them at every turn, and there are scores of listings that point them out on the site.

Our Manifesto discusses many of the same issues:

http://www.dccblowout.com/dept.asp?dept_id=14-006-013

I'm not saying buy the records from us. I'm saying let thinking about records take a back seat to listening to records and you will learn a lot more than the other way around.
Best, TP
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