Low volume on turntable??


Hi everyone, so I’m new to vinyl and have a lot to learn but I just hooked up a my first turn table, and with my preamp at maximum volume, and amp at full gain, it was still veryy quiet and had no depth/bass. The turntable is an old Denon DP-31L that I just installed a new cartridge in (AT-95E) --->Cary Audio AES SE-3 preamp---->McIntosh MC2125--->Klipsch RP-5’s. The system sounds magnificent running .wav vinyl rips with a Monarchy DIP upsampler--> Emotiva XDA-1 DAC in between my comp and the preamp, so there must be something wrong with either the unit, or how i hooked it up (basic built in RCA to preamp, with the integrated ground wire running to the Mcintosh chassis). On the plus side the ultra-quiet music has no hums, or background distortion whatsoever, even at full volume.

Any advice or thoughts would be much appreciated! Cheers
hockey4496

Showing 11 responses by marktomaras

yep, that would do it!  you defiantly need a phono stage somewhere in the system.  My first phono pre was a NAD PP2, a cute little thing that works pretty well for the price.  I upgraded eventually to a PS Audio GCPH, which was a more robust unit with more options and a finer sound.  I then went for a tube model with the Audio Research PH3SE, and my current model is a Whest PS.30R.

This represents an initial spend of less than $200, and ratcheted up to $3,500.  I can happily say that I was pleased with each and every one of these phono preamps, and they are all spaced out in price.  On Audiogon, you could probably get the NAD for $80, the PS Audio for $550, the ARC for $1000, and the Whest for $2,000.  So depending on your budget and your commitment to vinyl, anyone of these would be a fine choice, at least in my opinion.

Good Luck!
there is a NAD for $150 and a Rega for $250, both on Audiogon right now.   Either is fine, it seems you are just getting started, and as you mentioned, the table and cartridge are pretty entry level.  Personally, I'd get the NAD, and save the extra $100 for a rainy day.  

If you decide to get serious about vinyl, you may consider a bit higher budget for the analog setup.  If you get more into it so to speak, and can justify the spend, I would sell the table, cart, and stage in the future to a friend who also wants to dabble, and roll that cash towards a step up the chain, which will get you in the area where vinyl can outperform digital.

 I read an article recently by and non audio journalist who came to the conclusion that unless you break a particular price/quality barrier, vinyl will not sound better than a standard cd player. Since you have a reasonably nice DAC, you may find that your analog does not sound as good as your digital.  If that is the case, I would not let that discourage me!

For your system, I would say an investment of $1000 for an analog front end would be a Very very good spend.  I would look for a table, cartridge, and phonostage at $333 each, hopefully all used, meaning your $1000 should be getting you closer to $1800 in gear, gently used.  I think at that level, you will feel the analog will sound as good or better than the DAC.   

For now, grab the NAD and enjoy some records!  Can't go wrong.
I've heard nothing but good things about the Schiit brand. Haven't actually heard the gear, but I hear it is good schiit!
 I'm not sure if using the Sony receiver is going to work. Pre-out means that that jack is designed to output to a power amplifier from the preamplifier.    It might work but it might be  dangerous.   I don't know enough to be sure, but I believe the signal will have gone through the phono stage section  of the Sony, then through the pre-amplification stage of the Sony, and then it would be going through a second preamplification stage in the Cary.   This doesn't sound worth it to me. Also, I think the NAD or the Rega  are more than competent  to amplify your cartridge. In fact, I would save that extra money and put it towards a better cartridge in the future versus worrying about a higher end phono preamp now.   I used the NAD PP2 with a Dynavector 10X5  cartridge with great results. Sure I eventually upgraded, but the point is that your cartridge probably deserves the first upgrade dollars. 
 Good luck! 
Hockey, I think you may be taking this jury rig too far.  Look at NAD phono preamps on eBay, there are a couple for less than $100...  The one here on audiogon is a better option, 4th generation, for $150
 I think with Sony means by that is that it does not make any adjustments in the digital domain. Perhaps you have some fancy controls on the Sony that would allow you to correct for certain issues. It could do this by modifying the digital signal.   I'm guessing the analog direct option prevents the Sony from converting the analog signal to digital.

You can certainly try it, but I do believe you may be double preamplifiying the signal, if  my suspicions are correct.   If you do try this, clearly put the volume control to absolute minimum on both the Sony and the Cary!  Slowly raise the volume, perhaps to 9 o'clock on the Sony, and then carefully raise the volume on the Cary just a bit.

it is possible to overload a preamplifier. I've done this with my phono preamplifier into my stereo preamplifier. With the gain  set too high on the phono stage,  The musical peaks were full of distortion - scratchy poppy sounds.  I dropped the gain on my phono stage,  and problem solved.

 If you give it a shot, let me know what happens! It's possible that you can turn the Sony volume halfway up or all the way up, and then use the Cary to  do the rest, and possibly only required to Cary volume Control to be set quite low. Just be careful and gradual with those volume control knobs!
Mesh,  excellent idea! If the tape out is line level and not preamplified at all, that could work. But I also agree, this is a short-term solution so the original poster could play records today and not a long-term solution at all.
Nice work, that tape out saved the day!  (Thanks Mensch for that!) I'm all for using the Sony now that it's proven it's worth... I agree with you, it's probably no worse than a cheap phonostage.

As for the intracasies of vinyl setup, I am inexperienced.  I got lazy and when I bought a new cartridge I asked the dealer to mount it for me.  Oh the shame and embarrassment!  However, I have taken the first steps toward redemption, and I bought Michael Fremmer's famous DVD on turntable setup, link below.  I would think this video would get you fully up to speed on proper setup of the arm and cartridge.  I have been toying with the idea of buying a cheap used cartridge and practice setting it up, but haven't gotten around to it just yet.

Nice job on getting the Sony to pull its weight!.  Check out Herbie's Audio Lab, they make some cheap isolation materials.  The grungebuster dots can be good under your table.  Also check out the cable co.  They have a sister site that sells used cables.  Most are pretty high end, and the prices get quickly insane, but they have some entry level items from the good cable producers that may be found at a steal.

I don't know what musical taste you have, but here are a few of my favorite recordings that are excellent on Vinly:
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms
Steely Dan - Aja
Daft Punk - Random Access Memories
Dead Can Dance - In to The Labyrinth 
John Lee Hooker - Chill Out
Willy Nelson - Red Headed Stranger 



http://www.musicdirect.com/p-5836-michael-fremers-turntable-setup-dvd.aspx

"They" say the two most important components are the source and the speakers. In this case, your cartridge is your source. Before you upgrade your cartridge, which I would definitely recommend, I would look beyond the audio tecnica line, and see if you can snag a bargain on a higher end cartridge. A quick look on audiogon, and I found this one: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-sumiko-blue-point-special-evo-iii-hi-high-output-mc-exc...
which is a well known cartridge that is favoribly reviewed.  At $550 retail, if you can pick this up for 200-250, that is a heck of an upgrade.  Bonus, this is an MC design which is generally superior to MM, but this particular unit is a high output MC, which I think will be fine with your Sony phono rig.  Perhaps do some research on the best cartridge in the $300-$600 range, and then hunt for a steal on a used one for $125-$250.  I think this may be a better plan.  What do you think?

ps I had a Dynavector 10x5 which I thought was great.  That could be on your short list.  I sold mine for $200.
Sorry for suggesting those items out of your price range!   I am sure that you can get good suggestions on cartridges for any budget, I would take your time and perhaps start a new thread "best cartridge for $75" or something like that to lure more members in to then discussion. That and a meticulous install, and I think you're set!
Al, nice to see you take part here.  hockey4496, Almarg always has some excellent experience and insight...