Looking for the next level in imaging...

I got the same spatial information from my modified speakers (low cost) ? so ?

😁😊

I get this without the Baach-spacial. Ever listen to Amused to Death? The guy is talking at the far end of the room over my left shoulder.

I am sure you are right because if i am not a musician i learned experimenting with acoustics for 2 years non stop that we learned how to hear and how to listen...It is true for sound as it is for music from all cultures...

This training has nothing to do with taste ...

Many audiophiles if we read threads think that acoustics concepts are related to acoustic panels and are mere  secondary tweaks compared to gear price tags.. ...

When I’ve done blind tests with gear swaps, the "audiophiles" I’ve known have always failed by a mile. I could trick em all day long. 😁 The guys who reliably pass such tests are the musicians I know.

Strange thing is...You seem to be dismissing decades of dedication and pain one may through with an instrument...just like that. Well, frankly, I don’t give a crap..., but, sure, Okie dokie.

+1 to mijostyn post ...

The third dimension is not instruments at different distances away from you, any system can do that and much of it is artificially created by the mixing engineer with echo. The 3rd dimension is the sense that and instrument or voice is a 3 dimensional object in space. If that space is full of reflections, echo and amplitude smear you will not be able to delineate the 3rd dimension at all. This is the state of most systems including some incredibly expensive ones.

I understand his point here but we must had the right balance between all surface (reflecting-diffusive and absorbing) then we can have too much room treatment if one of the three factor is unbalanced with the others for a specific room geometry size and content ..

A good live recording with a horn section is a great example. A top notch system will allow you to identify each instrument in space. Most systems show you the horn section, but you can not separate the instruments easily, the same applies to vocal sections. The spatial cues are usually there, but acoustic errors can easily overcome them because they are at a much lower volume. IMHO there is no such thing as too much acoustic treatment. An anechoic chamber is better than a poorly treated room.

I used my own mechanical equalizer with 100 distributed resonators located at specific places and this is more than passive acoustic treatment. We can create not only good imaging and holography ( the third dimension which is the sonic volume of each instrument ) but the end goal more than imaging done right is the listener envelopment (LV) Source width auditory (ASW) ratio.

But no, an anechoic room is a dead space , unnatural, it is better a bad room we will improve ... ☺😊

😊

It is common place fact that you cannot create inexistent acoustic information which is not already recorded but a bad room will impede and/or deform this acoustic information ...

My contention remains, it is in the recording, NOT in the system or room treatment. Those can only improve what is on the recording, but not create what isn’t there.

the problem is that the speakers/room content/ears is the main factor in the translation of the recorded acoustic information through your your room/system acoustic parameters ...The dac price matter but is secondary compared to the acoustics parameters... That is my point ...Most people think that the dac will do miracle....What they call the recording is the bits in the dacs...What i call the recording is the acoustic trade off choices chosen by recording engineer ( or the mixer)

A common place evident fact do not replace acoustics.. 😊

And in any stereo system even in top acoustic room there is some spatial acoustic information that cannot be translated acoustically right. It is why the Choueiri filters are more than a tweak or a gimmick. It is acoustics science fact...

But it is evident that the information must be in the recording AS ACOUSTICS INFORMATION recorded by the engineer... Nobody can dispute that ...

Reading your post i know that you know what i spoke about. Then i apologize because  i commented one line of your post out of context ...

First i dont like albums too much mixed in studio...😊 I listen classical and jazz...

Second you got it wrong right here : the room acoustics and your acoustic room/ears parameters will translate the sound imaging and soundstage recorded by the recording engineer set of trade-off choices for you in a wrong or in a good way... The recording so good it is will be acoustically deformed or well rendered, but  it is all related to your speakers/room content /listener position  and the right balance between absorption/reflection/diffusion...( the bass problem must also be solved ) ...

Most people dont even know that because their system/room is so mediocre that the soundfield is almost captive of the speakers plane ...😊

But the acoustic information must be in the recording to begin with , here you are right. But you lost it when you forgot that the acoustic coupling parameters of the speaker /room must be tuned to gave to us ALL acoustic information in the recording to begin with...

A good dac cannot replace speakers"room acoustics. Even the powerful Choueiri dac will not do it but will help you to do the speakers/room right ...

@mahgister Please answer this simple question. A recording of a trio. Guitar, Bass and Sax. The recording engineer has mixed the final tape to have all three mics/instruments playing an equal signal from left and right channel. This puts the sound of the recording with all three instruments in the center of the stage. Are you claiming there is any stereo equipment or room treatment, or combination of each that will produce a playback in my listening room where the three instruments are spread out across the room, and for good measure, the sax is in the center and five feet in front of the guitar and bass? That is what I called into question with the statement, if it’s not on the recording, it’s not in your listening room. Cheers.

Thanks for your reply ...

But sorry you miss my point completely...

This then reveal the general audiophile misunderstandings about acoustics concepts reduced to mere room acoustic panels...

I was stating that no system, or room for that matter, can reproduce something that is not embedded in the recording to start with. There is no magic.

First the gear system reproduce bits or electrical weaves, but your speakers coupled to the room/ears TRANSLATE these acoustic waves in acoustic information about the initial recording trade off using the parameters of your ears and the parameters of your HTRF and your location and the parameters of your acoustic room content .

What was recorded were chosen acoustics parameters resulting from a trade-off choice by the mics type and location , not bits and electrical waves in which they were encoded, what was recorded by the recording engineer trade off choices need to be acoustically translated in a correct acoustical balance and under controls in your room for your ears.

Then even a good system in a bad room will not translate all the spatial characterics of the sound even if they are POTENTIALLY there in the coded bits or electrical and mechanical waves of the vinyl, ask Dr. Edgar Choueiri not mahgister... 😊

And yes when all is done right magic exist...

Why do you think i am happy ? Not because of my gear price tags 😁 but because of the way i embedded and modify it to optimally translate for my specific Ears and HTRF what is recorded ... It is not perfect but very good ratio S.Q. /cost...

There is magic...It is called acoustics... There is magic... It is called music well translated in my room...

When i came here more than 8 years ago i was confused... It is only by acoustics experiments that i could figure out how to install my system and how to cure upgraditis ignorance .. Before upgrading we must learn basic... Nobody claimed that elementary truth for me in audio forums... They all sell their favorite gear as solution...

It is not because most people cannot afford the time and the necessary free room to experiment that the truth must be banned ... 😊

Acoustics concepts rule audio (not mere acoustic panels) not price tags ...

Magic happen with  acoustics when coupled with the synergetical gear design  ...

First all stereo system nevermind their price, because they are two speakers sound source are flawed... Read Choueiri acoustical articles...

Second if your room is not very well acoustically balanced you will not hear  what is in the recording because your speakers/room is not optimally under controls enough to TRANSLATE in your own room  and  to reveal all spatial acoustic information contained in the recordings...

Than this sentence is not even wrong  and like describing the realitty in reverse order like if walking on your head was normal 😁:

"If it’s not on the recording, it’s not in your listening room" — BINGO @bigtwin !

You will listen what is in the recording only if you compensate for the crosstalk effect of any stereo system impeding any acoustical spatial information and only if your room is acoustically controlled and well balanced with the speakers/listener location / room coupling..

Why then someone can say the opposite of reality ?

it is because people think erroneously that acoustics parameters of the recorded room are automatically reproduced right in their own acoustical environment because their dac or turntable are TOP gear paid a high price 😋... Sorry you need acoustics controls of the room , filters for the crosstalk and even ideally inner ears measure and HTRF measures ..

Gear fetichism dont replace acoustics science...