Looking For A Dialogue Around Using An Ortofon MC2000 In My Current System

So I got an email yesterday from the gentleman who sold me the MC2000. He was ready to sell the T2000 now. Its in excellent condition with all packing materials. So I paid the man, and its on the way here. The cartridge is still at Expert Stylus getting a new diamond, so within about a month or so I will be able to get this installed. 

So far I have used the T2000 SUT with the MC3000 cartridge since its installed and aligned on a headshell. The MC2000 is at Expert Stylus getting a new diamond put on it and a general cleaning and tune-up. I need a set of headshell wires to install the MC200, and that is a pairing I am really curious to hear. Took awhile to get proper grounding between the T2000 and a Graham Slee Accession phono stage. 

With the MC3000 the sound isn't too far off my better cartridges. While not the same sound, and perhaps lacking the finest bit of detail in the upper registers, its at least in the same ballpark. It's like they had worked out what the sound should be like, and have spent the following years refining it and getting output voltages up to higher levels and retaining that overall presentation. I imagine that is no small feat, going from ..05 mV in case of the MC2000 to .10 mV with the MC3000 and now to cartridges between .30 and .40 mV in the current lineup. 

Also find that the sound can be varied quite a bit with the interconnects between the SUT and the phono stage. Overall quite pleased how this has turned out. This gives me a second phono stage that is quite flexible, but it won't cause me to abandon my Esoteric and its ability to use MC cartridges directly. Probably still my preference, but now I have options. Also have a Conrad Johnson MV1 that has a very interesting presentation, probably due to the Nuvistor tubes, but it really needs a cartridge in the ,3 mV range or higher. 

But the T2000 was worth acquiring. 

@mrwigglewm 

Yes there was a brief mention of Intact and that you do use a DV505 with the MC2000. I started this thread to have a bit more in depth conversation than we had and get different perspectives to see what is possible. 

With the Supex headshell the vertical mass of the DV505 will be fine. I wonder about the horizontal mass, and I do admit to being concerned about the long term effects and if a cantilever can end up being skewed because of the higher mass. 

The SME V at 10 grams should keep resonance within bounds, its going to be low but should be usable. Ideally a carbon fiber black widow would work, but most of these low mass arms are intended for high compliance cartridges...that do not have a body that weighs 11 grams. So how to get enough counterweight to balance it to 1 gram tracking weight is a challenge. 

Jensen does make a transformer that provides 30 dB of gain, its a custom order. The question becomes how well shielded it is. That I cannot find info out on. The vintage transformers seem to have become fetish items, and its hard to find a T X000 series transformer at this time. I do see a T5000 for somewhat sane money, and since the MC5000 is essentially a MC3000 with different cantilever the SUT should be the same. Of course in a perfect world I find a T2000 for this cartridge and a T3000 for my MC3000. 

The reading from the original review shows that active step ups like the Klyne were unable to achieve a low enough noise floor to work well with the MC2000. And there seems to be no modern active pre pre amps available at this time that can do 30dB of gain. So this does not seem to be an avenue that can be pursued. 

One last transformer that looks to be an option is the Hashimoto, as the H-3 can be configured for 30 dB of gain. 

So I can a resonance calculator with the SME V as the tonearm and got 7.68 Hz. I got no idea how to run the Dynavector and get a calculation. 

Afraid it is not that easy, quite a bit of work has to be done before that can occur. Have no idea of the number of hours on the diamond, so it needs to be evaluated. I have a package slated to go to Expert Stylus with my Ikeda 9 for refurbishment, so it makes sense to send the MC2000 along with it to be checked out. Pretty sure that is what I am going to do, its just a matter of getting it boxed up.

When it comes back I don’t have enough gain in my phono stage to listen to it, and do not have any step up devices to make that work. So I have to do the leg work and decide which ones could be possible. Now my seller tells me if I could locate a Mac C50 for him in the US he would be willing to sell me the T2000. But I find no C50, so at the moment there is not a pathway for me to obtain the T2000, but perhaps there will be in the future. Only SUT on the net available at this time is a T1000, but it does not look like it has enough gain.

If you read the Stereophile review Holt uses a Well Tempered arm, which the magazine reports in a 1984 issue to be 10 grams. However since it rides in that silicone cup, depending on paddle depth, it may act like a higher mass arm. What is concerning is that Holt reports that after a few days of listening the cantilever looks like its starting to collapse. Now he does say that it never changes from that and completely fails. However, I would prefer that not occur to start with, as I don’t need any heart attack inducing events. The question becomes is it because of arm mass, or is it because of the fluid damping. Which if I could answer that question would determine which arm I install it on here. So far I am leaning towards the Dynavector with the Supex head shell to be the safest option.

Essentially I am just trying to determine the safest pathway to using the cartridge, and not waste a bunch of money on the pre pre amp choice. I have a Conrad Johnson HV1 sitting in the garage that a useless moving coil step up device for me because it does not have enough gain for these Ortofon cartridges, and the gain structure of my SS amp/pre amp and somewhat higher efficiency speakers makes the noise floor of the HV1 audible. This is the kind of misstep I would like to avoid in the future. That is how come I phrased this thread "a discussion".

@lewm 

Yes it certainly makes sense, and since I own multiple low output Ortofon cartridges, the reality is I am going to need more than one gain device. So if I find one now I can wait for a T2000 to become available, and then move this device over to the MC200u or the MC3000. The interesting thing is the T3000 is able to perform well on the Esoteric phono stage into the MC setting. But that seems to be the lowest output voltage it can take, as the MC200u sounds stilted and hard going into that phono stage, and its output voltage is .09 mV versus the .11 mV of the MC3000.

I will call Dave and weigh that option versus the Jensen it seems, as their high output SUT is intended to be used with low output Ortofon cartridges. But in the past I have had a preference for sound from a solid state phono systems versus SUT I have used in the past. But then again, I have not owned one built to the quality level of the T2000. 

But Raul suggestion of an Entec is a good one also, I have seen their units available. Know of their history of being a product designed by Mr. Matsudaira.

@lewm 

The phono stage has MM and MC settings. with 40 dB of gain in MM mode at 47K. I would have to input the SUT with the Esoteric set in MM mode, so I need 30 dB of gain out of the SUT. 

The Esoteric has 66 dB of gain in MC mode. But I won't be using it in that configuration for this application. 

@rauliruegas

I am afraid I am just a bit simple, as I am not understanding the point of the previous post.

I do understand the reference back to the MC3000 post I made earlier this year when I acquired that cartridge. When I purchased that cartridge, it indeed was meant as a casual cartridge as I had pretty modest money invested in it. I was not sure I wanted to spend $1000 to $2000 for a SUT for it, and it be the only cartridge I need that level of SUT for.

The MC2000 is a different level of cartridge for me, in part because of the memories of when I worked in a hi fi store that I posted in the opening post. Also the output voltage demands a high gain device, whether it be SUT or active, and that is a non-negotiable item, when you have .05 mV however you step up that signal is going to be a somewhat expensive solution. As Lewm said, that will cost money.

Finally, this is a pretty rare opportunity, as there are not many MC2000 produced to start with, and the number of good ones are slowly being dwindled because of accidents and wear. I watched two auctions on Buyee and one is decent shape but only stylus guard went for a bit over $1000, and one with a skewed cantilever but all case and paperwork went for slightly over $1000 also, and we don’t know if the cantilever can be saved. I am fortunate to find one that looks as close to as new as can be hoped for, of course we do not know the condition of the diamond, and that means to make it a quality cartridge it’s going to need a diamond exchange. A paratrace will probably be as close as one can hope to get to the original diamond, and the best that can be done at this point.

How I obtained this cartridge is a bit of a miracle also. I was sitting with my wife one evening watching Star Trek with her, and I was browsing through Canuckmart when I ran across the ad that was put up earlier in the day. I saw that he did not take Paypal, and it had been up for a number of hours already. I reached out just in case, and the seller agreed to work with me while I arranged payment through a friend in Canada. His kindness allowed me to make a purchase. The very fortunate part is that the price was $650 CAD, and with shipping it ended up costing my $582 USD. Getting a cartridge of this rarity and in this condition, and difficult payment arrangement was short of a miracle. I suspect it would have been a long time before an opportunity like this would present itself again.

So that creates a bit of excitement for me, and the belief that this can be more than a casual cartridge like I had planned for the MC3000. Also I now have 3 cartridges that can benefit from a high gain pre pre-amp, whether it be SUT or active. So I am more amenable to spending that money. One other thing I have not mentioned is I was also fortunate enough to acquire another Dynavector DV505 arm that will get mounted to the Scheu Analog Das Laufwerk No 2 table. So between two detachable headshell arms that are identical, and a phono stage that allows for two inputs, I have the ability to make cartridge comparisons that will have the same table, arm, and phono stage, and independent loading options for each side. That should keep me busy for awhile.

Could you please clarify for me what the question is for the last post you were wanting an answer for? I will certainly try to give you the best answer I can.

Cheers!

@dover

@lewm 

Thanks guys, having confirmation that both of you have had no ill effects of the higher horizontal mass of the DV505 with high compliance cartridges sets my mind at ease. My plans will be to use it on the DV505 when the cartridge gets serviced and returned. I suppose I could run it now before it gets sent off, the Esoteric is 66 dB on MC mode, so given how much gain I get out of the Halcro and AVM Audio amps I may very well just get a taste of the cartridge before it gets sent off. 

@rauliruegas 

Afraid I don't see the point. No one has ever claimed it to be competitive with the finest cartridges of today. I have a Transfiguration Audio Proteus and ZYX 4D that satisfy me in that category, and have owned and sold several other quality modern cartridges. 

From a historical perspective it was considered one of the best cartridges in the world at its time. It will be interesting to hear what it is capable of, as it provides a great reference point of what was available in the mid to late 1980s. 

Whether this is a "good cartridge" or something above or below that is a matter of perspective and individual interpretation, which is a large portion of this hobby if we are being honest, and this determination is not being conducted with any kind of objective testing that can generate a hierarchal  ranking based on data. 

I am just curious to hear what the performance differences are between some of my current modern cartridges and a historical classic that was once considered to be the among the top tier of cartridges available. Add into equation that this cartridge has value to me from a personal perspective, and that makes the act of ownership a bit more special. 

So I sent the MC2000 off to Expert Stylus along with my Ikeda 9 Kawami. They are reporting a 3 to 4 week turn around time, must have caught them at a good time. 

VAS has my Transfiguration Audio Proteus and ZYX 4D, hopefully I will get them back in a bit. Getting a bit short on cartridges here, still have the MC3000 and Audio Technica OC9 XSL here. So I can at least spin a record.