Have enjoyed reading this thread from the very start, so here's my take on the Lightspeed Attenuator:
1) I and a follow group listners auditioned it in a very high end system and thought it was good but nothing earth shattering, I had shared this with Paul I believe with a voice mail or E-mail, that its sonic performance was not a significant or qualitative shift over the sonics of other great passives which I have used as references such as the Bent Tap TVC or the Placette buffered. I choose not to put the results of this auditioning experience on this thread for two reasons. I had a hunch it would be dismussed by some of the true believers in the Lightspeed because of this or that, impedence mismatch or something else, not fully broken in, which power supply, etc. Secondly, this is not Paul's position, well that's just your personnal taste anyways. Absolutely, personnal taste and system synergy is and will always be present. My system just does not offer the same illusion of real music with any passive including the Lightspeed compared with a reference tube based linestage.
2) It's the price dummy, it's the price! Yes, I totally agree with the permise that this piece offers tremendous valve for the money, even if it's no better then the above mentioned passives which I have used as references at different times in my system, it still costs thousands of dollars less! However, that does not mean, taking out the performance vs cost ratio, that it ranks as one of the world's great linestages because it stills lacks what great active tube linestages have to offer in my opinion. I have no worries regarding heat or tubes wearing out.
3) I have nothing but respect, trust, and kind feelings towards the man who started this thread, Paul, who writes extremely well and helps spread very interesting and useful information here on the GON. Happy new year Paul. However, if I did not know better, and I do, I would think that Paul is either George's private partner, owns lots of shares in George's company, or finally gets a piece of the action. Now none of this is true, please, I'm trying to make an attempt at humor and Paul, if you take what I just stated seriuosly, I apologize in advance. However, George should be very greatful, this thread at times comes across to me like an unpayed advertisement or a missionary message to Gon members to save us from ourself's regarding the slippery slope of performance vs cost ratio. I know it's a flaming bargain!, but how many times is it necessary to state this over and over again. It's makes perfact sense that George has an invested interest regarding his baby, I think him taking the time to help out on this thread with useful information regarding how to maximize your Lightspeed's performance is terrific, but please you have not invented the "sonic wheel", even though you offer a great product at a very reasonable price. I do totally accept that you have a position regarding what a linestage should offer sonicly in one's system, however your take, is no more right or wrong then my take or anyone's else's. It's personnal taste not an objective measure in the long run in this hobby. It just seems to me, and I understand why, George, is stating to come across as a salesman on this thread.
Well, that's my take on this marathon discussion, it's always fun to see what the next post will be, so I'll keep reading this thread, but I'm keeping my tube based linestage for now, even though it would be great to save so much money, but just don't like passives in my system any more, but the Lightspeed might be great for you in your system! |
Hi Clio09, I too have great respect for Ralph Karsten's designs and his passion for what makes the most sense to him sonicly and design wise.
However, I have no awareness historically that he ever "pushed" his design/product on an Audiogon thread like it seems to me that George is doing now on this one. Please I'm not referring to the information to help members understand his design or optimize its performance, but it seems to me that he really believes that his piece is the "BEST" there can be in linestage.
Your other remark that George, "proably could have made more money developing an active linestage", but chose not to because of his conviction to this design is not only pure conjuncture on your part, but kinda silly that he rather make less money then more from a business sense.His use of the LED design instead of transformers or resistors is quite interesting, but does not put him, in my opinion, in the patheon of designers like Ralph Karsten, Nelson Pass, or Masataka Tsuda.
So, I still believe that the way this piece is being "marketed" on this thread or how George comes across in his "conviction" that his linestage is the "BEST" regarding his design is quite different then anything Ralph Karsten has ever done on any Audiogon forum. |
Hi Paul, thanks for your kind words towards me. As to be expected from you, words of wisdom:
1) Everybody finally has to audition for themselves to really know what works for them.
2) That unless you use tube power amps the Lightspeed might lack depth in the soundstage and what I call image density or air around individual players. Also tubes still offer, regardless were you have them in the chain, more natural timbres and the the body of the harmonic then SS or passives in my opinion. When I heard the Lightspeed it was with SS amps not tube amps. That's why I believe Paul gets such great performance out of this passive because he does use tube based amps. For me in my system I like SS amps with a tube based linestage to get what I'm looking for sonicly.
To respond to another great GON gentleman, Clio09, who was nice enough to even offer sending me his Lightspeed for me to audition and we have had nice chats regarding his experience with Concert Fidelity gear and his personal relationship with Mr.Tsuda. I'm not attacking George or his product. If you find it appealing to what you refer to in George's attitude as, "a bit cocky", I personally don't like arrogance in any form by anybody. You know George personally I don't, I still think he comes across not as a designer/builder with great confidence or pride over his product as he should, but somewhat condescending towards other viewpoints other then his own.Was your own example regarding that Nelson Pass on a DIY board posted a different version of the LDR proves that George ranks with some of the great designers of the audio world? My take on this is Nelson Pass is open minded about experimenting with different designs, gives credit when credit is do, and is the antithesis of cocky or arrogance. Enough said.
Clio09,when I used the term that George was forcing his product on this thread this was refering to how he comes across to me as being somewhat of a salesman, with the position that his take on what a linestage should offer is the only objective/correct one and this thread was turning into great unpaid advertisement for his piece. Finally, I don't care what happens on AA, my comment was regarding that I have no historical awareness that Ralph or any other well known designer has ever pushed as hard to sell his product as George has, if you can remember someone please share. |
Please Fiddler, accusation has such a negative and bombastic tone to it. The only example I will give of someone who has given so much to the DIY community is Nelson Pass, yet he has never on any post here on Audiogon marketed his wares or ever stated his opinions as the only veiwpoint regarding performance as the absolute truth as far as I can tell, like the man that you say I'm unfairly challanging.
I just shared my opinion regarding my impression of how George comes across to me on this thread, somewhat negatively towards any design that he deems not being totally true to the source, what ever that means, and secondly this not DIYaudio, but Audiogon were threads normally are not used by designers to sell products, and if they do they are rightly called out on it.
Finally, your statement regarding George's reason for posting have nothing to do with selling because he gave it away for free to the DIY community, hum, has not Nelson Pass done the same thing, yet has never pushed his products like George has on this thread.
Sorry, if my impressions regarding George's motivation comes across as a personal attack on the man to you. I don't know George, I'm not a member of the DIY community, and I don't want to jump this fine thread with this side bar discussion regarding George. I'm sure George is a good guy who makes a very good product at a very reasonable price. |
Fiddler, if you think I have been nefarious and bombastic towards George that's OK with me.
I gave him credit for sharing information on his design and for helping people who own it get the best performance possible in their systems, sounds nefarious to me so far.
Then when I gave my opinion in a respectful way that it seems to me George is a little full of himself regarding his perspective on what a linestage should offer sonicly and that for an Audiogon thread it started to seem to be somewhat of unpaid promotion forum, wow, that sounds bombastic and accusatory doesn't, then I became a SOB in your opinion.
Your weak attempt at being disingenuous towards what information I did share regarding the difference between someone like Nelson Pass who gives things away to the DIY community but does not use Audiogon threads to market his wares, does not negate your final silly statement,"that George has given it all away". Really, as far as I know he still charges money for his LDR, he does not build them and give them away for free.
Gee whiz, guys lighten up. I'm not attacking George personally, I gave his product and his pricing of it a postive comment and I'm entitled to my opinion about the other issues.
Finally, I apologize to Paul for influencing this thread away from the great discussion concerning passives vs active linestages that was very informative and interesting. I guess you have to be very careful about sharing your opinion, even though I thought I have been respectful, when it comes to certain people's friends or heros. |
I quote, or at least paraphase, both the great Winston Churchill and Lewis Carroll about what this thread has turned into regarding its "deep" philosophical/epistemolical search to unlock the ultimate truth regarding this topic:
" Never before in the history of high end audio... have so many ... received so much jabberwocky ... from so few."
Reading this thread is becoming more fun then watching Monty Python's, Meaning Of Life. Thanks guys. |
First, for fun:
Saint George continues his holy mission to slay the dragon of active linestages that spit forward the devilish sounds of "colourations/distortions" towards us poor audiophiles who have not seen the holy grail of sonic purity and truth!
I have finally seen the "light" of Saint George's gospel, thank God , therefore will burn my active linestage to cast out the devil's of "colourations/distortions" out of my home forever. Thank you Saint George for saving my sonic soul!
Now a serious question for my friend Paul:
If your goal is to have a volume control that adds or subtracts nothing to the signal passing through it, what Saint George refers to as "colourations/distortions, why do you use before and after the Light speed Attenuator in your system some of the most euphonic/colored IC's and speaker wires in high end audio, instead of very neutral/transparent wires just to pass on this "pure" signal?
I'll give my opinion, even Bobby recommends Cardas for his Merlin speakers because they are just a touch "lean" sounding, so to give them a touch of the body of the harmonic or so to speak a little meat on their sonic bones the Cardas adds that to the mix. Wow, you mean a tone control or adding some kind of colouration to the sound, the highest order BLASPHEMY, according the the holy gospel of Saint George. It's personal taste and system synergy, this fiction that there is an objective standard to what music really sounds like is so silly.
I will stick to one of my original assumptions regarding George's position, any volume controls that are not his Lightspeed are for shit, along with being "dinosaurs" and that his veiwpoint is the only valid one on the topic. I still think he uses this thread to try to sell his piece. Can't wait for Saint George's apostle the honorable Fiddler's attack on me for sharing my opinion. It should be fun what he says about me now.
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Hi Paul,
I believe that you have always been a gentleman who has contributed much to the GON members with your opinions, knowledge, and experience with different pieces of gear.
That's not a setup to now get you, I really believe what I just said, however I think your just a little bit obsessed with the the topic of passives vs active linestages. As you know I have had some of the highest regarded transister and transformer passives in my system and liked them very much. As my taste and ear has evolved I found in the context of my system they did not perform at the same level as great active tube based linestages. As I shared with you in an E-mail I and a few friends auditioned the LSA and found it OK and to my taste not as musical as John Chapman's TAP passive. My remark that you seem a little bit obsessed with this topic is that you state correctly that passives offer great bang for the bucks, what you call stupid/good, that you numerous times restate why they will or might not work for technical reasons which are quite informatice and correct and go into all kinds of nuances why you prefer the LSA in your system. How many times are you going to restate what you have stated over and over again on this your thread until it seems that you are, to me, just wee bit preoccupied with this topic?
You have NEVER said the LSA is for everybody and all systems which I have great respect for, however, good old George has said many times on this thread there is no doubt that his piece is better than any other based on measurements and keeps pushing this assumption in a way that I found quite obnoxious for an AudioGon forum thread.Yes, he states that certain parameters must be meant regarding gain and impedence, but if these are in place there is no reason to ever consider listening anything but his creation. He then goes back to his scientific test of running your CDP straight to your amps being careful not to blow your speakers apart as an objective /scientific test to prove his point. Oh please, you don't say anything like this but he does over and over again to promote his product. This is what I would refer to as an example of technobabble that tries to prove objectively that LSA is superior to all other preamps.
Paul, we both know there is no BEST in our hobby and I don't believe we are even disagreeing about this. I'm not entrenched in an either/or position on passives or active linestages being the best, just how the designer comes across in a way that I find dogmatic, not you, and how many times the same stuff is brought up until it seems like a commercial ad, instead of a thread to educate members about an inexpensive way to get great sound for alot less money. |
Hi Paul,
Yes, your speculation regarding my use of SS amps (Threshold&Pass Labs) with a tube based preamp in my system vs your use of tube based amps with a passive preamp makes sense to me. You get what tubes have to offer the body of the harmonic, soundstage layering, and at least for me with the right tubes more natural sounding timbres with your power amps and I get it out of my tube based preamp and tube based DAC. |
Dear Fiddler,
You really pulled out of your ass the idea that I even impiled any type of censorship or that George does not have the right to post his opinion on any thread including this one. Just another way of deflecting what I was really addressing his arrogant and condescending attitude towards anyone who does not agree with his viewpoint and using this thread to market his product. I guess I'm arrogant to share my opinion. Please give me one factual bit of information that would support either my attempt at censorship or being disrespectful towards anyone on this thread. If you and Clo09 want to start a Teajay Fan club I'll send both of you an autographed picture for free. Just let me know. Being the arrogant bastard that I am I know you guys would surely want my picture hanging on your wall. |
My dear Fiddler,
Thanks for your kind words towards my self description. Remember any time you want that autographed picture for your wall, please let me know and I'll ship it right out to ya.
Happy regards from "THE ARROGANT BASTARD" |
Hi Paul,
To answer your question regarding why in my system an active preamp sonicly out performs any of the passives I have owned or auditioned is based on either the gain or buffering they offer: Don't have the foggist notion why from a technological perspective.
In my circle of listening friends four of us have all had some of the highest regarded passives in our systems and enjoyed what they have to offer, hell I wrote a rave review on the Bent Tap here on the GON, yet something was found missing after awhile in our systems when using a passive.
In my system it seemed that the jump factor or how alive the music sounded was lost to a noticable degree. Also my sound stage was not as deep and individual players were not as 3d with air around them when compared to using an active linestage. Finally, timbres sounded less natural to me with the passives then with my tube based actives. Sonicly, my favorite passive still is John Chapman's TAP because it came closer to not having these shortcomings compared to other passives.
Why this so from a technological angle, I don't know, you and the other guys seem fascinated to try to explain it in objective terms. I really don't care why I just know what sounds more like real music and that's what really matters to me. |
Hi Paul,
Something else I wanted to share with you but I forgot to mention, is my experience with many tube based active linestages is that the ones that use a rectifier tube in the power supply sound much more natural/musical to me then preamps that are totally SS in this section of the power supply. Again, I don't know why this should make that much of a difference from a technological perspective but my experience has been that it sounds much better then a SS power supply. |
Sorry George,
You have two mistaken assumptions regarding my system. First, I use Pass Labs XA-60.5's and not the 100.5's. Secondly, and I think more importantly, since I biamp my system any preamp I use active or passive the signal is first directed to a Bryston X-over then to my two pairs of monoblocks to drive my MG-20's. Therefore, your premise regrading a bad impedance match is invalid in my situation.
I have no idea regarding what the impedance rating is of this active X-over, just that your LSA did not play music in my system like CF-080 does regardless of the reasons why.
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Well Tony,
You just got a taste of what I keep referring to as George's arrogant know it all attitude, this time towards a gentlemen we both respect, Mr. Masa Tsuda. The quote's from George's "tube gurus" particlarly the crack about, " you don't hang them horizontally at the back of the chassis" shows how ignorant he is about why Mr. Tsuda has them in that position to begin with.
And this is the guy you would want to hang out with and enjoy his company? Well, let's see what your going to do now. Come up with another excuse or rationalization for George's put down of someone you know is a brilliant designer, builder and your friend or finally stand up to this know it all who's full of himself. |
Hi Charles1dad,
Thanks for your comment. Really like the "pompous windbag" description about good old George! Mr. Tsuda is not only one of the highest regarded designers and builders of Japan, but is a total gentlemen on a personal level.
I'm still waiting for what Tony's response is going to be to George's condescending remarks about Mr. Tsuda and the CF-080 preamp. I know that you have a friendship with him and great regard for this preamp, so what's your position now? Let us know. |
I just got through reading Sam's Space in the October issue of Stereophile and have to give the old boy for nailing why this thread really says the same thing over and over again and gets no were really at all.
Tellig has really changed his position that the best preamp in no preamp at all. Remember, he gave great praise to the LSA, yet comes to the conclusion that it ultimately leaves something out of the music that only an active preamp can provide in most systems.
Now, Paul would call this either a pleasant added distortion or it just is some euphonic change that gets in the way of the "pure signal", yet when I asked him way he uses some of the most "colored" IC's and speaker wires to muck up this "pure signal" coming from the LSA in his system he never did answer that question. This total thread, besides being a free advertisement/promotion of George's product, is techno-babble going over and over why the purity of the LSA or passives in general is objectively the only way to reach the truth of the music, and any active preamp just an out dated expensive waste of years gone by.
I totally accept that many passives including the LSA offer great performance for the price, but to say that they are on the same sonic level as world class reference active linestages for some factual/objective scientific reasons is just a realization regarding what is personal taste and system synergy in different systems for different people.
So, Sam just flipped from no preamp is the best preamp to why many music listeners would still invest their money in an excellent active linestage really shows why this thread is really a discussion that is a closed circle of logic developed by true believers regarding the LSA and passives in general. Take a look at Tellig's piece and tell me what you think. |
Hi Clo09,
To answer your questions regarding my reviews here on Audiogon:
1) Any review posted on this website is "free advertising" including mine. However, I don't believe that any manufacturer on any of my reviews have ever posted scores of times to promote their product and try to make a case that it's better then ever other piece for "scientific/objective" reasons.
2) Let's be fair, every review I have ever posted always says their is not BEST in the world, that personal taste and system synergy is always involved and this is my taste but you audition it to find out for yourself.
Lastly, I do care how things measure, but we all know that how things measure doe not equate how they sound regarding how people experience the sound of real music. I have sat in front of many systems that measure great but sound rotten. So, I have no need to help out poor Sam Tellig, just to point out that techno-babble that says the same thing over and over again on this thread does not prove that George's LSA is in some objective way better then active linestages. |
Hey Clio09,
I get a kick out of your phrase, "well deal with it", as if I'm losing sleep over the drivel that George keeps pushing for his own finacial gain.
I believe that you have entrenched your self in a position for what ever reason to be an advocate for good old George and what ever my opinion is you will attack it and disregarded any information I share. I accept we will never agree, so it's a waste of my time to try to explain anything more to you.
For an example of friendly and good natured rational discourse on this thread, take a look at how I and Paul try to discuss things in a respectful manner even though we do not see eye to eye on some aspects of this topic.
So I'm done with you, Good Day |
Fiddler,
This has been gone over before on this thread that George's motivation has nothing to do with financial gain,
but is just sharing from the goodness of his heart.
Directly to your two points:
1) What he charges for the LSA is very reasonable, it should be, it's nothing more then a few relatively inexpensive parts and a generic metal box. No remote and we won't talk about ergonomics because their are none. Unlike other passives with features like RCA/XLR inputs, remote, phase switch,etc that add cost to a passive linestage if built to high quality.
2) As I have stated before on this topic someone like Nelson Pass who has given much to the DIY community along wih his relatively low cost First Watt line of amps and preamp to make these pieces available to more people then his higher level Pass Labs gear does not get on a GON thread to self promote what a genius he is, even though he is, and push and push his piece so it becomes one on-going advertisment. He also self proclaims that all other active linestages are inferior to his LSA, by using his version of "scientific" information to try to make this claim seem objective.
So, I wish I had psychic abilities, but I don't, oh well. And as far as conspiracy theory, why don't you offer one regarding my reason for one, just sharing my opinion and two finding it annoying that this thread is one long unpaid ad for George's OK, inexpense passive that he tries to prove makes all other pramps obsolete, if the conditions are meet for a passive, yea right. No conspiracy as I can tell, it seems pretty clear to me what he actually does here, along what his reasons are for doing it.
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First to Grannyring,
Thanks for pointing out that the major and really only criticism, with a few exceptions regarding other posters nasty responses about me and my opinion on Paul's thread, has been the repeated posts of George not to educate and inform in a respectful way, but his arrogant position that only he knows what really produces music the right way which justs happens to be his linestage. You might have paraphrased his frequent putdowns of anyone who does not agree, but your spot on at seeing it. I also have brought in the subject of him using this thread for pushing and marketing in a way I have never really seen on an AudioGon thread before. If it's not for financial reasons then he must really be a total egotist and thinks his opinion and device are a true gift to the audiophile community. If you think it's bold of me to share my opinion on this ongoing love letter to George, thanks for the support and compliment.
Secondly to Paul,
I never participate and rarely visit any DIY sites on the web. I admit my ignorance regarding how George comes across on those boards in his statements. My home base is this forum and this community, that's what I care about. You who never in any of your writing comes across with either dogma or any arrogance at all, why do you chose to be an apologist for this designer over and over again on your thread? Not the position that he's of course entitled to his opinion like we all are, but you seem unwilling to address the kind of remarks that Grannyring pointed out that run totally through George's remarks on your thread. You just say,"George thinks he has a great idea, and will argue its merits", implies he does this in a respectful and tolerant way towards people who don't see it his way. I don't think the facts back that up. I just don't get it, are you dear personal friend of his? Just not your nature to give him some feedback about his arrogant and condescending remarks on this forum? Some how your support for his LSA would be negated by being more blunt regarding how he comes across? Maybe by nature you are talented diplomat and just want to stay above the fray, and stick to the subject of your post. However Paul, in my opinion, George has really screwed up your very good and informational thread for the above stated reasons. So my respectful request to you is instead of another "spin" like, "he seems to be a true believer in his approach-rightly or wrongly", share what your honest opinion is regarding his writing here, just a passionate fellow or an arrogant blow hard regardless if he would rather be surfing or not. |
George,
I'm sure by reading this thread you know my position on your posturing regarding blatant promoting of your piece along with your arrogant know it all attitude towards anyone who does not see the the light of the purity of your passive linestage.
So, when you make another snide remark like,"needs to do their homework before spending the big bucks," it fits into what I would expect from you based on your past posts on this thread. I have no idea how you experience music or how well you hear. All I know is that your LSA for my ears' was no better or worse sonicly then other passives I have owned in the past and came no were near the the performance of my active preamp regardless of your comment regarding the concern over the impedance of the X-over.
Finally, I have never asked for your advise or your opinion, your minions are quite happy to keep asking for it or you provide it on a on going basis to keep promoting on this thread, so thanks for your help, but I'll just keep limping along with my system the way it is. I will also never directly reply to any of your statements that might include me in the future because it would be a waste of my time.
When Paul wrote that one possible position, that is quite rational, " that passives can sometimes be better than actives" a few posts ago I was in total agreement with one qualifier besides system synergy is personal taste. Yet, good old George tells me that I have a bad match and who am I to know better then him how my own system sounds. George you have convinced me, I have changed my mind I will sell off my CF-080 as soon as possible and either call or E-mail you with my order for your LSA masterpiece. |
Hi Unsound,
On a post by Grannyring a few days ago on this thread he paraphrased the esscence of George's position. Anyone not in agreement with either his theoretical prespective or did not think his LSA sounded better then any passive or active linestage, if certain impedance conditions were meet, were the following: 1) Have a tin ear 2) like distortion. 3) in it for the money only 4)LSA is the absolutely the standard.
If these don't come across as putting anyone down who disagrees with him, I would like your assumption regarding the nature of his remarks. Specifically, his remarks towards Mr. Tsuda that he gathered from his anonymous "tube gurus" that, "if you are serious about valves" you would never use them like Mr. Tsuda does in his CF-080 preamp implies that this world renowned designer is an idiot for not agreeing with good old George's " tube gurus". One of the oldest forms of knavery in a debate is to share very nasty implied information by saying that it was proposed by someone else, not the speaker, to get the dig in and than avoid the heat from the audience. I doubt if good old George would even discuss this with anyone, why should he, he already knows everything about any design flaw in any preamp in the world, which means if its not his LSA its inferior and a waste of money and time.
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