Thanks, guys.
I think I will talk to Levinson.
Well, Phd, they have been played at least 2 to 5 hours a day almost every day for the last 16 years. |
Here's my update. I talked with ML via Harmon. As expected the phone tech (Jaime) said that if they are 16 years old and have never been serviced, they should definitely come in for inspection and maintenance. He said they recommend that you send them in about every 10 years.
There is a Guaranteed Maximum Price of $1,140 per amp or $2,280 for the pair. If the actual work is less, then they will charge less but if it is more you will still pay only $2,280.
All he needed to issue me an RMA# in addition to my name, address, etc. was the SN of the amps.
Best,
Ed |
Even though the 20.6 update was only one circuit board, Levinson no longer provides the update.
To be clear, as far as I can tell by listening, there is nothing wrong with my 20.5s. However, as I said I love them and 16 years of Class A heat is a long time and a lot of wear on the caps, if not resistors. These amps cost $12,000 in 1990 (that's like $35,000 in todays $$) and even Levinson no longer builds amps like these are built.
I just want to get them checked out and get anything replaced that needs replacing before something goes wrong and does some damage to them. Other than my Magnum Dynalab, which I don't play very often, the 20.5s are the only component in my system that I have not replaced in the last 10 months.
Thanks, guys
Ed |
Okay, you guys have done a really great job of giving me the pros and cons of going ahead or not going ahead with sending my 20.5s to Levinson for their first ever checkup and any parts replacement necessary to put them back on spec. I really do appreciate your time and thoughts whichever side of the argument you came down on.
That was a really great suggestion about the Service manual for the 20.5s. That never occurred to me in audio. I used to do a lot of my own work on my cars and I always used to get the service manual whenever I bought a new car. Levinson no longer has the service manuals available for their older discontinued models. Does anyone know if they are available anywhere else?
I now have the RMA #, so I now have 3 options:
1. I can send them to Levinson next week or the week after. The Levinson tech guy said that the turnaround time would be 2 - 3 weeks. In audio, I have found that manufacturers always take 2 - 3 times longer than they tell you to deliver the product. That means I will likely be without my amps for 6 to 9 weeks. I would not want to have my system down for that long. Any thoughts on something I might pick up on the 'Gon and resell in 2 or 3 months for at or near the price paid?
2. I can pull the top covers off and inspect the caps for leaks, cracks, etc., and then decide whether to send them in now or not.
3. I can replace the 20.5s and invest the money I would have spent on the maintenance as well as the sale price of the 20.5s in new or newer amps. I was thinking about replacing them next year with Ayre's new monoblocks anyway. Alternatively, since I have always been an ss guy, I could buy a pair of used tube amps on the 'Gon and try them out with the option of selling them for little or no loss if I decide I want to remain an ss guy. If I went this route I would want to get tube amps that are a good fit with my new Ayre K-1xe preamp and Wilson Sophias, meaning in part that they would need to be balanced and accept a balanced interconnect cable from the preamp.
As always, thanks for your time and thoughts.
Ed |
Guys, here's the conclusion to this story. As I was trying to decide whether to leave my still steller performing 20.5s alone or to spring for the $$, give them up for a month and send them to Levinson for a preventive maintenance refurb, I noticed a pair of almost new Lamm 1.2 Reference hybrid mono blocks for sale on the 'Gon and bought them.
They are already broken in so I have been having fun comparing them with the 20.5s. I also finally received my Silent Running Audio Craz Twin isoRACKS. Let me tell you that the sound is glorious with either set of amps!
The Lamms are better than the 20.5s (they should be), but not as much better as you might think. It is not an apples to apples comparison, however, because I cannot use the same speaker cables because the 20.5s take only camac connectors and the Lamms take only spades. So I am using my 8 month old Transparent Music Wave Ultra speaker cables with the 20.5s and almost brand new Purist Audio Aqueous Anniversary cables with the Lamms.
The Lamms seem more powerful than the 20.5s (and are so rated), definitely have more air and a better mid bass, mid-range and treble. They also resolve more. You can hear the lead singer on just about any CD take a breath. It feels more like the performers are right there in the room with you. The sound stage is no wider than the 20.5s but it is deeper. The 20.5s have a stronger, deeper base (at least with the Transparent cables they do), and are not shabby at all in the areas of soundstage, imaging, extension. I have never heard notes decay as realistically as they do with either amps and either speaker cords in the SRA Craz Twins.
Best to all and thanks again for your comments which ultimately led me to the Lamms though none of us knew that at the time.
Ed |
No, I'm going to sell the 20.5s sometime soon. I have just been keeping them to try to get a fix on the differences between the M1.2s and the 20.5s.
Ed |
Herman,
I did get to listen to a pair of 20.6s at my dealer's that just came back from a Levinson refurb. They got better over a period of 72 hours of re-break-in and they did sound very good, but still recognizable as 20.5/20.6s. I can't say that they sounded better than before the refurb (Levinson refused to say that also by the way), but they certainly did not sound worse.
The Lamms are a 2004 or 2005 design and are Vladimir Lamm's reference state-of-the-art best that he knows how to design and build. Listening verifies that our best high end audio engineers have not stood still these past 16 years. They have actually found ways to improve their products. Also, some of us believe the tubes in the hybrid design do make the length and decay of notes more realistic while the solid state devices make the attack of the notes more realistic.
Lastly, it was not a question of finding something I like. It was a question of finding something I like even better than my 20.5s
Best,
Ed |
Good question, Nsgarch. I have not read all of his interviews, but it is not answered in FAQ on his website. An Audiogoner wrote somewhere in the discussions section that he bought the M1.2 hybrids and then had thoughts about selling them and buying one of the all tube Lamm mono block sets. He said he called Vladimir to discuss the matter with him and then said he could not repeat what Vladimir had told him but he did want to say that after the conversation he decided to keep the M1.2 hybrids.
singular or plural regarding the tubes is a matter of definition. If you are talking about just one mono block, it is singular as each mono block has one tube for the second stage.
My own thoughts about hybrids have been to try to get the best of both worlds: SS for the attack and tubes for the extension and decay of the note.
I certainly like the sound of the Lamms in my system and they are going to keep getting better for awhile during the break-in of the PAD Aqueous Anniversary speaker cable.
But if I have not said it already, I'll say it now -- and if I have, then I'll say it again, the difference the SRA Craz racks made is an even bigger difference than the Lamms have made. Who would have thought that isolation racks would make an even bigger difference than a major component upgrade!
Best,
Ed |
Nothing to apologize for, Herman. But I must tell you I have a lot of confidence in Lamm's products.
Ed |
Your thoughts are always instructive Raul. As for speakers, I have the original Wilson Sophias.
There's nothing wrong with the 20.5s. The Lamms sound different. Words are a bit more clear, I can hear more low level detail, more air around voices and instruments, etc., etc. In short, the music sounds a bit more real.
Also its not just that they are rated to have 10 more watts, they are discernably more powerful.
In any event, my wife has observed these things also and before she heard the Lamms she wanted to get the new Ayre MX-R mono blocks. Now she says she prefers the Lamms, but I did tell her she has not yet heard the Ayres after they have fully broken in. Ayres take well over a hundred hours to break in. Right now they are faster than the Lamms and as dynamic as the Lamms (which are more dynamic than the 20.5s), but a little dry, which might dissipate with break in. On the other hand, the sound of the 20.5s would surely change some with replacement of the caps and resistors.
I'm not sure where all this Lamm hatred is coming from, but I can assure you that they make music that would satisfy most if not all music lovers and most audiophiles I know.
Best,
Ed |
