Let's Talk DAC's

Jeffery, And your point is?

You say you want better. Better what?  Consider your use and source. Then consider if you really need to change, or like so many of us, just got that bug which of course is a perfectly good reason for a change.   Modern electronics have fantastically flat responses. Rolled off top end is going to be your speakers, room, and ears. Not the electronics.   Linear distortion is easy as can be corrected by eq. 

Biggest improvement I did in my DACs was to reduce the output of JRiver by 3 dB.  It made my DACs sound much more alike by suppressing edginess or "digititus" quite a bit.  Chord and RME both mention this as an issue with digital filters which may be why they don't seem to have the same issue as most chip DS DACs. Maybe the preference for NOS R2R DACs by some.  Seems reasonable as it describes a real measurable issue that does not require any magic. . Enough so I am finished on my desktop system. Not sure on my main stereo. 

You don't have the Gustard's on your list. R26, A26. ( A26 has a streamer/renderer i it)   Some like the Mojo better than the Qutest my local Chord dealer tells me.   Like everything, you get to diminishing returns real fast.  The sonic difference between an Atom+ and a D90 is not that great. ( two price ends of generic chip DACs)  Either it takes a lot more money for a true step up, or steps are very small.  Amazon is probably hating me for returns but that is the marketing path of so much these days. ( 2 toppings, 1 SMSL, 1 Sabaj)

The RME is old, but I get the impression it was just done very well so unless looking for some specific parameter that stands out, it is still a viable option.  I want to try one. Maybe it is like the good old Vanderstein 2Ce. Does nothing wrong. Nothing great, but nothing wrong.  There's a lot to be said for that.

My short list is down to Qutest, Mojo, Rme,  A26, and Enyo ( name changed for the Aris when they raised the price)  I can't justify the next step up even if breaching $3K is where the differences may start to show.  Holo, Terminator, Hugo TT Weiss, etc.    I really want to try an A26 in my system, but $1500 had better be a huge difference for 15 times the price over my JDS, not just a subtle detail. I can buy a lot more CD's for that much money and for me, music matters most. 

If someone would PLEASE make a midrange to cover 500 to 5K with efficiency to work with 6 to 8 inch woofers, I would gladly use that $1500 there! I have been searching for a good midrange for 40 years. Speakers are and will always be the weakest link. I do not have the space for planer or ES speakers or I would have them. Get the stinking crossover out of the vocal range!

DDC?  For what.?   Digital to Digital converter?   These were introduced as a band-aid when DACs had horribly  implemented USB inputs to overcome bad cables, noisy PC ports, ground loops, and using the PC clock in synchronous mode.  Those issues were identified and solved long ago. You can buy entry level DACs immune to these issues. As in sub $100!  No excuse for an audiophile level product to be susceptible to these problems just as it is no excuse for a streamer to be susceptible to any phantom network problems any more. 

Now, if your DAC does not have a USB input and that is all your PC has,  then you need a "media converter" to convert USB to PCM or TOSLINK.  Or a DAC that does, PC that does etc. 

Chuck, I have heard good things about the Geselli DACs and they have been most responsive with a couple of questions.  I do love small companies who believe in service and support.  One reviewer suggested their use of a third party USB card may not be the best but that is the only criticism I have seen and only from one source and I don;t believe most reviewers anyway.  They just introduced the newest version with the top AKM chip.  Roll your OP amps if you wish.  Very tempted. 

Yea the RME has a book for instructions as they give you about all possible options. As they are a pro audio company, they do their one consumer produce like their pro stuff and expect the effort to be put in. Not for everybody. Better than Chi-Fi that have lots of options ( most useless) but no instructions. Incorrect settings can defiantly degrade the sound.  RME and Chord do discuss the digital filter clipping problem but if using a PC, it can be corrected on the host reliving the DAC of that problem. So what was an advantage 6 years ago, may not be today. 

The other side of the coin are folks like Schiit, JDS, Geselli, etc. who select " the correct filter"  by their experience and can do standard formats without drivers or settings. Plug and play for WASAPI, but drivers are needed for ASIO or ultra high data rates MS does not support. No idea about Apple or Linux.  I had issues with older Topping and SMSL ASIO drivers as well. They seem to have worked it out now. Schiit still does not seem to like ASIO.  Then a few, usually higher end, give you only a couple of options, but ones that actually matter. OS or NOS for instance. 

Giant killers may be a fallacy. You don't get something if you don't pay for it. BUT, Just because you pay for it does not mean you get anything more. Billet aluminum, glass displays, fancy feet, and advertising does not effect the sound. Good engineering does. Dealer markup and very low production also raises the price with no sonic benefits. Overseas shipping can add to the cost if single units. Technology does play a part as R2R with any accuracy is very expensive.  Paralleling multiple top line D/S chips does cost. So does licensing for useless features like MQA. Now, how many price steps does one need to go and actually get solid performance improvements?  How far above the best budget ( JDS in my view stomps the Chi-Fi bottom tier)  does it take to get a noticeable sonic improvement?   Different for sure can get you into low end R2R under a grand. Better is or not a personal choice.  Features, like if you want XLR's costs a couple bucks.  Preamp section or headphone section?   Adds up.   A $200 mass produced Chi-Fi with top 10 level classic measurements does not sound any better to me than my Atom+, Nor did a $400.  So that pretty much confirms once measurements are better than the .001% range they are not the driving force in the sound. So a baseline of pretty good.

Now what does it take to be a real sonic step up?

Pontus, HOLO, Weiss, Chord  seem to be a reasonable expectation to be an actual step up if one can believe any reviewer.  I don't  but  are a place to start listening for yourself.  Others of course.  Above their price, from my manufacturing background, there is not really much you can spend money on, so price may be more prestige driven.  Maybe the J2s is the intermediate step but then I have to add the price of a preamp to it.  $300, $700, $1500?   Maybe add in a higher current cleaner power supply?  I hate headphones so that cost is defrayed but it does make it a $1000 minimum DAC in my system. 5X my all in one Chi-Fi which is not bad. Only slightly below, and that may be my imagination of my $200 Atom stack.  Imagination. Out brains lie like a dog. I at least know I have a slight bias against the Chi-Fi stuff. 

If you have a DAC that is improved by a DDC, and that could be, then you have a poorly implemented DAC and are band-aiding it. Bad design or just obsolete.    Again, you can now buy a DAC that can deal with it just fine. An excellent example is the Schiit Unison, but most competent companies have also implemented very good USB inputs.  Galvanic isolation, good management of analog vs digital grounds, good board layout, not powered by the host, etc.  Internal clocks and PLL's are vastly better and larger buffers removing any external jitter or noise that plagued us 10 years ago.  You should not be using the host clock, you should be using a "good" $5 cable and be running in asynchronous mode.  Problems eliminated. 

I suggest spending the extra $500 and up on a better DAC rather than band-aid a problem that should no longer be there.  Too bad sites like ASR do not test input issues as that would actually be useful.  

To better understand USB, I offer this link:  https://www.elprocus.com/usb-protocol/

Merson DAC-1 being over 5K is pushing the OP's budget as stated if the Hugo @ just under 7 is too much.  Holo May and Less Loss are also in the $5K range.  Merson Fererot is a different technology using the Burr Brown and with a friendlier price around $1700. Ladder Schumann is also around that price. R2R and of course the Qutest.  Only listening will tell you if they are an upgrade. 

J2 base DAC is $250.  If you want the new AKM chipset, ( a lot more expensive)  it bumps to the J2s. Adds XLRs and a USB, then you have the option to go with the Sparkos op amps. Some think highly of them. If you want a wood case, more money.  You can actually spend close to $900 for one.   The older J2 AKM chipset was suggested to be close to Bifrost level sonically. Mrs. Geselli advised me to wait for this new version when I described the sonic flaw I was chasing.   Not a giant killer, but apparently a fair price and you don't have to pay for features you may not want.  Some do want BT. Add some value as they actually provide support.  How does it compare with the better mid-range DACs, that is what is important.  E70 Velvet?  D0300? X18? Draco? Bifrost? 

If my JDS was  packaged like an SMSL DM2, power supply certified instead of a generic AC wall wort, toss in a bunch of software you don't need, pay the MQA license, BT, remote, balanced drivers,  make it in the hundreds instead of tens of thousands,  it would probably be ten times the price and sound the same.  I wonder what the reviewers or price-snobs would think of it then? 

That leaves us with what is actually a performance step up?  If you put out a couple grand, you expect the nice packaging, so price/sonic value goes down. More inputs you don't use? Remote control of parameters you never change?  You reach the level of diminishing returns. Tiny improvements costing big bucks. 

So what does one really get for $3000? Or $20,000?    Better at what? I would like to think something but the ones I have hear demoed have not shown me anything positive. Wrong ones? Wrong speakers?  How much of that is distributor and dealer profit?   A lot of the attributes the subjective puppets ascribe are not actually functions of the DAC.   That does not even touch on what biases and expectations your brain makes up to justify spending that kind of money. It does if you believe it or not.  If that lie makes it sound better to you, then you have achieved your goal and the price was worth it. 

What a change that Jeffery O'l boy agreed with me that good DACs don't need the DDC band-aid. For $20K, I hope it is a good one as a Modi+ for $139 doesn't need one either.   I sure hope his doesn't use the computer USB 5V in a 20K client.    My $99 one is smarter than that.