My Father was running a tubed preamp with an SS power amp as was suggested to him by a few folks. I had always thought that his system sounded like hell i.e. the lower mids were always muddy sounding, bass was bloated and ill-defined, treble was sibilant and hard sounding, etc... He somehow thought that this sounded good. I kept telling him how bad it sounded but he just laughed and thought i was crazy. Quite honestly, i had always blamed his speakers for the "muck" that i heard but i was about to be proven wrong.
A while back, his tubed preamp went down i let him borrow one of my spare SS preamps while i fixed his. Viola, the sonic problems that i had noted were solved and the system sounded 10X more transparent with the SS preamp in the system. I don't know if the sonic problems were created by an impedance mismatch between preamp and amp or if the tubes were funky ( he had tried a couple different types of tubes ), but whatever it was, it didn't matter any more. My Dad was so hung up on what the reviewers and salesmen had said that he was convinced that he "HAD" to have tubes somewhere in the system. After that experience, he no longer lays claims to tubes sounding "better" than SS. In fact, my Mother referred to the tube preamp as "a piece of junk" after hearing the differences between it and the SS piece.
The moral of this story is to use what you like and what gives you the performance / features that you seek. I'm sure that you can find something that will work excellently for you. I would not worry about the method ( tubes or SS ) to achieve those goals, but simply that the components get you to where you want to go. Sean
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Asa: I was able to follow along with your last post 100% : ) I have to say that i agree with the points that you were making and found one point particularly interesting. That is, your comments about Nordost cabling.
The little bit of Nordost that i've tried did sound very "accurate" i.e. very detailed, fast, clean, etc..., but a large portion of the "magic" or "musicality" seemed to be knocked out of the system at the same time. Part of this might have been due to the lack of bass weight & warmth / shift in tonal balance that i experienced. The funny thing is that, according to most High End reviewers, the expensive Nordost stuff is the cream of the crop. My guess is that many of us have very different priorities & goals for our systems and this is just further evidence of that point.
Kind of funny how there are SO many variables that can be affected at one time by one component or cable change. Sean
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Yes, one can hear "silence". However, one can't have "greater silence" or "blacker backgrounds" if the gear is not fast enough to fully respond to transient changes as needed. As such, i've found that very fast SS gear can be just as "silent" or "black" ( and even sometimes more-so ) than a tubed unit.
Moncrieff covered this subject and showed actual scope photo's in a very old IAR when discussing this subject. He did this using CD players as a point of reference, primarily to show that not all CD players sounded the same. He went on to explain why one sounded more dynamic ( the scope shows that it produced higher peak amplitudes, producing a wider variation in signal intensity ), had a blacker background / better inter-transient silence ( the scope showed that it had faster rise & fall times, which in turn would translate to an increased perception of whether signal was or wasn't being reproduced ) and was cleaner and more focused ( due to the improved transient response and lack of ringing ).
For the record, the cd player that was "better" than the other was an early CAL unit that ran tubes in the DAC. While one might surmise that it was the tubed circuitry that resulted in the better performance, one should also keep in mind that the measured performance of such a unit could change drastically over time and that there would be a higher level of maintenance involved with such a unit. As such, one could end up with noticeably poorer performance of such a unit IF one used lower grade tubes to begin with and / or did not stay up on maintenance of the tubed circuitry.
With the above in mind, if one can find an SS device that suits all of their needs, they are in for relatively consistent performance over a long period of time with minimal amounts of maintenance involved. If one prefers to use tubed components, which obviously some very knowledgeable and well respected individuals do, one should also count on increased maintenance and the sometimes sizeable costs involved when replacing rare NOS tubes.
This is NOT meant to slag tubes or tube users. It is only meant as a "reality check" for those that are not familiar with the various aspects of owning and operating such gear. I do recommend investigating and comparing tubed and SS gear as each has their own attractions and drawbacks. Which one you like better is obviously a personal choice and matter of preference. Sean
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Brulee: To respond to you directly, i think of tube gear as having higher maintenance due to the fact that tubes degrade at a FAR faster rate than SS devices do. As such, the decline in performance that one encounters takes place on a daily basis and is so gradual that one may not notice it until maintenance / tube swapping is done. This is especially true of power amps, where the loads, amounts of heat and power demands placed upon the output devices are far greater than in most other tube based devices. As to having problems with non-linear frequency response, tonal colourations, poor bass performance, treble roll-off, etc... that will depend on the speakers being used with the amp. It will also depend on the load that the upstream device ( tube based source and / or preamp ) sees as it is terminated into the next piece of equipment in line. If you doubt this or would like some "scientific proof" to support what may be considered "inexperienced rambling", please visit the website that follows. Thomas J. Norton of Stereophile documents the differences in linearity / loading characteristics* between two SS power amps and two tube pieces. It is quite evident that either tube amp shows greater deviation from neutrality than either of the SS based amps.** If one would do some further checking on the subject, they might find that the results that the Sonic Frontiers unit displays is not that different from quite a few other tube driven amps on many "well respected" speakers. Most tube amps are NOT very linear UNLESS one has a high impedance load that remains stable and shows little sign of reactance. The greater the impedance variance and the higher the levels of reactance, the more likely that one is to have a roller coaster for frequency response with a tube amp. As such, matching tube based amps to speakers becomes far more critical than it is with most reasonably well designed SS amps. As far as performance / reliability of line level devices that are tube based, i have little problem with them. My own personal experience though is that they work best with other tube based products. Otherwise, one can run into problems with improper loading conditions / less than optimum signal transfer characteristics. As has been noted by more than a few contributors to these forums, their personal experiences show that running tube based preamps into SS based amps has resulted in less than optimum performance. As such, the general consensus that if one feels the need to "mix and match" by using a tubed preamp and SS power amp ( as was commonly accepted in the past as being the "best" path to "hybrid heaven" ), even those results may end up being less than stellar. Like i said, i'm NOT knocking tubes. They do some things quite well and can be quite reliable ( except for tube consumption ). I'm only trying to make those that are thinking about venturing into those waters more aware of what they "may" end up dealing with. Anybody that tells you that obtaining optimum performance ( within the confines of that system ) out of a tube based system is as easy as to do as it is with an SS based system is either inexperienced or lying. The very fact that one has multitudes of various tubes with varying degrees of electrical compatibility / fluctuating sonic characteristics from tube to tube, not to mention obtaining well matched versions of the same type of tube to maintain equal gain, noise and frequency response characteristics, is WAY more involved than simply selecting a "good" SS based system and powering it up. Since one does not have to go through ANY of that with an SS piece, the observation that tubes are "higher maintenance" would appear to come as common sense to me. Sean > * One should take into consideration these tests were conducted with only 10 milliwatts of power being produced by the amp. As power is increased, non-linear frequency response is very likely to become exagerated due to increased levels of reactance / reflected EMF from the speaker itself. As such, things only get worse under real world conditions. ** As an interesting side-note, one may take notice that even the SS amps showed high frequency roll-off into the Vandie's, which are known for sounding somewhat "soft" on top. This could explain why some people find them to sound "veiled" or "lacking air". |
Asa: Quite honestly, i have a very hard time understanding the majority of things that you write. For some reason, reading / understanding some of your posts is like trying to decipher hieroglyphics to me. As such, i'll do my best to try and answer your questions / respond to your statements.
My point was that a unit that can respond as fast as need be to signal change will be as dynamic or silent as the signal demands and do so in the proper time frame. Equipment that is too slow to respond accordingly will lack dynamics and intrude upon the silence between notes that the recording may call for. Due to being sluggish, notes may not climb as fast as necessary and due to slower fall times, may ring on when there should be nothing being reproduced. Hence, one component or system can have higher peaks and greater silence between notes than another and that is "silence" ( aka "blackness of background" ) that one can hear. Much of what i'm describing in terms of "sluggish equipment" is related to S.I.D. or "Slewing Induced Distortion".
As far as "space", i was primarily talking about "timing" between notes or musical passages, not the "space" in terms of dimensionality that one experiences in a soundstage with imaging, etc... Transient response and the dimensionality of soundstage are very different things in my book. I will agree that, as a general rule, tube based products are "typically" far more "airy" and "spacious" in terms of soundstage or separation / placement of instruments than the majority of SS gear that is available.
Unsound: I do agree that transistors are at a loss when it comes to driving high impedance loads or loads that fluctuate much above 15 - 20 ohms or so. Quite honestly, this is one of the main reasons that i don't like vented speakers. The mass majority of vented speakers have very high impedance peaks at resonance ( a high Qms ) and that is why the bass that is produced by these designs tend to lack distinction and control. This is directly related to the fact that SS amps CAN'T drive / load into a woofer that lacks critical damping and offers a nominal impedance of 50 - 100 ohms* at its' peak output. This is the same thing as trying to use a tube amp with multiple large woofers that are quite low in impedance. They simply aren't a good match.
While i don't know if you read one of the previous posts that i made when discussing SS and Tube gear, i had stated that the amplifier with the highest voltage potential would work best. That is, so long as the device was capable of keeping up with the current being demanded from it. As such, tubes are more likely to do "better" than SS gear so long as the terminating load ( speaker and speaker cables ) remains both high in impedance and low in reactance. Given that there aren't many speakers available that meet either of those criteria, let alone both at the same time, i would typically opt for a high bias wide-bandwidth SS design that ran high rail voltages and was as close to a voltage source that i could get.
Brulee: I think that we have a bit of miscommunications taking place here, most of it being my fault. The first part of my post was directed as a response to your statements whereas the latter part was meant as a general comment i.e. not aimed at anyone in specific. As such, i should have taken more care to divide / separate the two parts so as to avoid this type of confusion.
To be specific, here is what i was getting at:
1) Tubes deteriorate faster than SS devices, hence more maintenance is required.
2) Once maintenance is required, a great amount of variables come into play. A few variables that come to mind are deciding on what brand of tubes to use, what production era of those tubes that one wants and finding a good source for these tubes.
3) Once one can find a source for the specific tubes that one wants, one must make sure that the tubes that one purchases are suitable for the specific purpose intended. As such, the tubes should be matched in terms of gain, noise, etc... Not only must these tubes be matched to each other within the same bank, identical sets should be used in order to maintain channel to channel similarities.
4) Regardless of all of the above, tube gear is less reliable. If you doubt this, turn your tube system on and let it run ( or even idle ) 24/7. Due to the reliability factor / safety hazards, this is not a suggestion but something proposed just to make one think about this.
5) Tube gear requires greater care in selecting mating components. While i am speaking primarily in regards to impedances, especially the amp / speaker interface, gain & drive characteristics also come to mind. How many people have complained about having a system that "roared" with only a 1/4 turn of the volume control ???
6) There is more involved in voicing a system with tubes. Since one can alter the voice of each component, let alone more than one section of each component in specific designs, it can be tougher to figure out exactly what tubes are contributing what characteristics to the total presentation.
7) Tubes are far more susceptable to acoustic feedback / microphonics, making them harder to work with. This is especially true if one prefers listening to large scale recordings at concert level.
I was not saying that tubes are not capable of good performance or that SS was "completely and ultimately superior" to tubes. I think that both types of product have their advantages / disadvantages. What i was saying is that the "hassle" of doing ANY of the above is very drastically reduced when using SS. Almost all of the above mentioned points are already addressed and are of a pre-determined nature on an SS product when you purchase it, hence the typical recommendation of "try before you buy". You can't really alter the sound of an SS product without getting pretty involved. While some may see the above "features" of tube swapping / selection as making them more versatile in terms of "fine tuning" a system to one's likings, some folks may consider this to be a hassle and something that they don't want to deal with. Hell, finding suitable cables can be tough enough let alone throwing tube variables into the equation.
While still responding directly to Brulee, i'd also like to point out that you've mentioned several brand names of products that you've owned over the years. My thoughts on this are that it is quite possible that you did not keep / own any of these tube based products long enough to experience the increased levels of maintenance that accompanies tube gear as it ages. While i do not know if this is the case or not, it is something that entered my thoughts. Many of the support components of tube based gear, primarily oil caps and electrolytics that are in close proximity to power tubes, tend to change value as they age. This is typically not as much of a problem with SS designs as most of the heat is radiated outside of the chassis via heatsinks rather than inside the chassis via the output devices. To top it off, the levels of radiant heat from a tube device typically surpass that of an SS device by a wide margin. That is, given the same level of power output.
As to my "general comments" aimed towards the public, please re-read this section:
"Anybody that tells you that obtaining optimum performance ( within the confines of that system ) out of a tube based system is as easy as to do as it is with an SS based system is either inexperienced or lying."
I was talking about the "ease" of getting things to work well together i.e. optimum performance within the confines of that system. This refers to the fact that SS gear is typically more universal in compatability with each other and that one does not have to worry about selecting the make / model / vintage of active semiconductors being used in an SS based system as compared to what one must do when using tubes. More work with a greater amount of planning / preparation / selection that is required with a tube system is not "easier" in my book. Someone that tells you that doing more work / planning is easier than doing less work / planning is either inexperienced or lying. I don't know how else to put it.
"The very fact that one has multitudes of various tubes with varying degrees of electrical compatibility / fluctuating sonic characteristics from tube to tube, not to mention obtaining well matched versions of the same type of tube to maintain equal gain, noise and frequency response characteristics, is WAY more involved than simply selecting a "good" SS based system and powering it up."
This passage basically summed up what i just tried to clarify above. SS components will typically "work" when hooked together with little to no attention to detail ( in terms of impedance matching ) or need for maintenance on the active gain devices.
"Since one does not have to go through ANY of that with an SS piece, the observation that tubes are "higher maintenance" would appear to come as common sense to me."
This drove home the fact that, short of blowing a fuse, there is very little maintenance involved with an SS system once it is fully set up. The same can not be said of a tube based system.
As responding to Brulee's last post, I've never asked anyone to agree with me. Honestly, the title of this thread couldn't be more appropriate i.e. i've NEVER worried about being politically correct or being "socially acceptable". Having said that, i have always tried to share an honest opinion based on my personal experiences or those of others that i know and trust that have shared their experiences with me. Sometimes i end up combining my past experiences with information provided by a media source and pass on my thoughts about said product / subject. When doing so, i quite often point to reference sources that others can look up / verify / research for themselves that may support my point of view. I do this so that others may better understand where i'm coming from.
Having said that, I don't think that you ( Brulee ) and i ( Sean ) are all that different. You like what you like and i like what i like. We both share the same "passions" ( reproduction of music in an enjoyable manner ) and go about that process in the manner and methods that we think best. As such, i've always said that "personal preference" is the bottom line in assembling a system and i think that you've basically stated the same thing here. We obviously have different preferences and therefore go about doing things in a different manner with different methods. As such, we are basically different sides of the same coin. To a "coin collector" aka "audiophile", the difference between "sides of the coin" or "manners / methods of musical reproduction" are very different and easily recognizable. To anyone else outside of our little circle of "audio enthusiasts", our love of music / audio reproduction would only allow them to see us as a single coin, albeit one that was out of circulation within the mainstream of flow. As such, let's celebrate the diversity within our ranks rather than make enemies.
Having said that, I apologize for anything that i may have said / done to upset you ( or anybody else ) in the past. There are better things in life to do than to make enemies / upset fellow audio enthusiasts / human beings in general. I need to work on my "people skills" and this has been a great reminder to me about this. Sean
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* The mass majority of vented speaker designs have an impedance within this range at the point of resonance. Resonance is the point where a driver achieves the greatest amount of output with the least amount of power input. As such, the amplifier has the least amount of control over the driver at this point, so it must literally try to overcome the point of resonance by sheer muscle in order to keep it under control. If we had an amp that was rated at 100 wpc @ 8 ohms and the speaker measured 64 ohms at the point of resonance, that would mean that the amp could only deliver appr 12.5 watts of power into the speaker near the point of resonance. As such, the "beefy" 100 wpc amp that you thought was easily able to control the speaker is now a "pip-squeak" that can only deliver 12.5% of its' rated power due to the terminal load impedance that it sees. All of this is taking place right at the point where the speaker is trying to run away on its' own. Not very good news, is it ???
As a side note, most well designed sealed speakers have an impedance peak that remains below 30 ohms with better designs staying down below 20 ohms. Obviously, power output is reduced at 20 ohms as compared to 8 ohms with an SS design, but it is still far better and able to offer much better control or "muscle" the cone than it can at the 50+ ohms that is so common amongst vented designs. |
Audiotweak: Some people actually know how to type and can do so relatively quickly, so it just looks like they spend a lot of time composing posts : ) Sean
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PS... I would respond more directly to your comments, especially since this thread disregards being politically correct, but i'm trying to work on my "people skills" : ) |
Albert: My comments did not apply to those that are highly experienced with tube gear. Those that are "bottleheads" would not be swayed by what i posted, nor is it my intent to try to "sway" anybody. Obviously, i wouldn't be telling them anything that they didn't already know nor was i trying to belittle or attack the air, spaciousness, depth, liquidity, natural harmonic structure, warmth, body, etc... that tubes "typically" bring with them to a system. It was aimed towards those that have never worked with tubes and / or had the experience of finding out what happens when a tube shorts out, opens up internally, becomes microphonic, becomes gaseous, tube sockets become oxidized, what to do when you have 3 good tubes left out of a matched quartet, etc... and need to be made aware that such things do occur.
Hopefully, one can tell the difference in my posts between sharing technical information / real world experiences and out-right "slagging".
Outside of all of that, i hope that you realize that i consider you to be one of the greatest assets to this forum and have nothing but respect for your opinions and experience, both as an audiophile and as a gentleman. I have no doubt in my mind that your selection of equipment and system as a whole are phenomenally good. The fact that it is tube based is neither here nor there to me, as you are the one that has to live with the results of those decisions. As such, i'm sure that you find the benefits to far outweigh any drawbacks involved.
Asa: I think that we are on the same page / share some similiar thoughts but some of our ideas simply aren't being communicated to each other efficiently. I'm sure that we could easily resolve our lack of communications if we were enjoying a cocktail or two while fine music played in the background : )
Other than that, i hope everyone enjoys the system that they have and continues to learn / experiment with new and interesting ideas pertaining to the reproduction of music. Whether you are a "bottlehead" or SS fan, prefer digital or analogue or are somewhere in between all of the above, i'm glad that we can openly discuss different ideas / personal opinions / experiences. Best wishes to all and good listening... Sean
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You folks might want to take a look at this thread over at AA. I guess i'm not the only one "stirring the pot" on this specific subject. Sean > |
YOW !!! I'm sticking to reading "The Far Side" or "Dilbert" and laughing. All of this other stuff makes my head hurt too much.... Sean
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Unsound: I think that 6chac was trying to say that there really are no answers, only more questions to be asked. How one asks or responds to those questions will depend on their perspective : ) Sean
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Unsound: Welcome to the "club". Glad to see that i'm not the only "knucklhead". At least you don't make it as obvious or as often as i do : ) Sean
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