KOETSU VERMILION and audio research PH7

The spec on Vermillion is 0.2, and at least with the Koetsu Stones I’ve got their specs seem to be reasonably accurate (relative to Shelter, Ortofon) so I wouldn’t expect to benefit from some bonus output. You should proceed on the assumption that the Vermillion has half the output of any other Urushi (it uses a different coil design). I would not be happy with 58 dB on a 0.2 Koetsu. Not one bit. I’ve run 0.3 Onyx and Jade Platinums on a 60 dB Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 and it sucked the life and dynamics out of them (that phono stage sounds wonderful with other 0.5 - 0.6mV cartridges including an alnico Onyx). Koetsu work very well with SUTs into an MM stage, but that PH7 phono is not at all flexible enough to use like that. With that stage you’re kind of stuck with cartridges in the 0.5mV to 1mV range. I say it’s absolutely time to get a new phono stage. Don’t invest so much into such a wonderful cartridge and then squander it!

@lewm
At one time I was using that Sonic Frontiers with a Hera II linestage that had gobs of gain (over 20dB, much more gain than the 15dB specd for the Hera I), and it didn’t help pull the dynamics back. Plus very high gain tube amps (over 36dB) and 96 dB / Watt speakers - I wasn’t wanting for gain in the overall system. It could get really really loud, and had a lovely midrange and treble, it was just sad and lifeless with no bass impact. The Koetsu Platinums came to life with any of the other phono stages I listed. I also used the SF in a high end Stax headphone setup (009, T2) with SOTA Nova, and same conclusions with same set of cartridges.

I agree with you, I wouldn’t ever try a SUT with either the Sonic Frontiers or the PH-7. Just the wrong configuration for that.

I just noticed my Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 is JFET and 6922 like the PH-7, and with very similar gain. I’m telling you it goes from dead boring with the 0.3mV Koetsus to wonderful with my 0.5mV - 0.6 Shelters, Ortofon, and alnico Koetsu. I also have Rogue Ares Magnum, Herron VTPH-2A, and VAC Renaissance that all go far better with the 0.3 mV Koetsus. The Rogue is good (make sure you get the blue label CineMags), the Herron is a bit better, and the VAC is a lot better but for a lot more money. I like the Bob’s Devices Sky SUTs for the money, and I think they improve on the Herron’s JFET stage. A Sky 30 or 40 would go great with the Vermillion. The Hashimotos are also really good. I don’t like Lundahls. The Koetsu SUT is superb but hard to find.

@andychris 
Even if it seems to work quite well now, I wonder would you say the same after hearing your low-output cartridges with a better matched higher-gain phono stage? They could sound good and still be held well back of their potential. Expensive cartridges are not cost effective unless configured to their full potential. 

If you're set on keeping the PH-7 for now, I'd strongly advise forgoing the 0.2mV Vermillion in favor of ANY of the other 0.4mV Urushi models (only the Vermillion is different). That will be a much better match for your phono stage. I'm not even saying the PH-7 is necessarily out of date or not great sounding, just that it seems optimized for a very specific output range of matching cartridges and the Vermillion isn't it. 

I've also had an Ortofon Jubilee (exact same specs as your Cadenza Black that replaced it in the Ortofon line) and it didn't sound as good as the higher output Cadenza Bronze (0.45 mV) on my Sonic Frontiers with similar config as your PH-7.

OK then get the Vermillion and be happy. Why even ask?