Jazz for aficionados

Dinah's private life was something; from everything I've read and heard, it seems that when she died was when she was the happiest, she never got enough of nothing until she married Dick.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLiN9vrURd8

Frogman that was fantastic; I'm a scat aficionado, and that's the best I've heard; not only that, but he's singing one of my very favorite tunes.

This is the very first time I heard "Mark Murphy"; it just goes to show how much music is out there from the past, that aficionados have not heard, which means there is so much more music I have yet to hear, that's from my favorite era in music.

I'm not a classical expert, but I found something I liked;


  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkM71JPHfjk


this is too tough, and it exemplifies how all the various musicians in a symphony contribute to the whole better than anything I've ever seen.

I can't decide who is the most attractive, the wa wa girl or the conductor;


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4niv522mbtM


She can Wa Wa and whistle to.


Nothing has ever explained a symphony to me like these two clips.

Pryso, there is no way that I or anyone else would think that was classical music, I was alluding to the way that big symphony orchestra put the music together in such a way that it helped me to understand how a big symphony orchestra works when it puts classical music together.

Every time I attempt to interject a little humor in a clip, I get presented as a total MOWRON. Now it seems that I thought "The Good, The Bad, And the Ugly" was classical music.

First Pryso informs me that it's not, and then after I attempt to clarify this, Frogman informs me again that it's not classical music; well, the MOWRON thanks both of you.

Just as my taste buds tell me what's good food and what's not, so my ear buds tell me what sounds good and what doesn't; oatmeal might be good for me, but I don't like it.

I liked the conductor, the "Wa Wa girl", and the music so much that I looked and listened several times; while you can keep most of your classical music with the oatmeal.

Frogman, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting; if she's not a good conductor, show me; find a better sounding version of what she presented than that one.


     

Wardell Gray was popular for his "Bird like" Bop, but I preferred his ballads, they were very special to me; every time I heard them they brought back memories of long forgotten scenes.


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7en810UObk



              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq1gBQENKOA


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OsK-SX7Emo



Enjoy


           

Pryso, I've been listening to Dinah's CD's, while at the same time looking forward to the 5 record set I ordered.

I'm sure the CD's are just as good in regard to Dinah's vocals, where I'm anticipating a difference is in the music; she chose the very best "jazz" musicians to back her, and while some are well known, others aren't, but they are still among the best.

She has Clifford Brown on a number of her records, and I want all the music I can get by him, plus someone who's not as well known, but can make a big difference "Paul Qunichette".


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sD9c-abXEM&t=43s

Dinah grew up on the South side of Chicago where jazz was king; record stores had outside speakers blasting the latest jazz albums, and there was always live jazz close by. Her love for jazz is quite apparent on "Dinah Jams". This was a live album featuring the top jazz musicians of that time.



Dinah Washington - vocals
Clifford Brown - trumpet
Maynard Ferguson - trumpet
Clark Terry - trumpet
Herb Geller - alto saxophone
Harold Land - tenor saxophone
Richie Powell - piano
Junior Mance - piano
George Morrow - double bass
Keter Betts - double bass
Max Roach - drums



Those guys were more than just background musicians; Richie Powell would have out shined his famous brother had he lived; Keter Betts is a boss bassist that I don't hear a lot about; Herb Geller is another name that's not well known.



          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfGKqERBRLk


You get all of this when you get "Dinah Jams".

Just like they grew cotton in Mississippi, they grew jazz musicians in our cities. I knew a few of them personally; while I idolized them, I had zero comprehension for how they did what they did.

Now that our cities no longer exist, I have no idea where the next crop of new jazz musicians will be grown. Just like you can't grow cotton anywhere, you can't grow jazz musicians anywhere. Cities provided the right soil; concrete, bistros, and jazz lovers with money to spend. Now that we no longer have that combination available in many places we can not grow new jazz musicians.


What are your thoughts?

What I think or don't think is unimportant; what is and is not, is what's important. There will be some kind of music that people call "jazz", but will it be a musical expression and projection of the emotions and inner soul of man.

Guess who's back? (Halfway back anyway) I have been through hell and high water, plus a little fire and brimstone to boot. "Yeah though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death; I'm just a little bit scared; cancer will do that to you".

Rok baby! Where you at. (that's the southern version of "Where are you?")

I have come to the conclusion that you and I agree more than we disagree on the definition of jazz, because your definition is more emotional, as opposed to Frogman's definition which is more intellectual. Jazz with an intellectual bent can be ever so good, but it lacks "Blacknuss".

While that infers inferiority, it's not meant to; just a statement of fact.

For example; Dave Brubeck's best jazz, of which I have a lot, and wrote about how much I was in awe of his performance at the concert he performed at an outdoor "Lady of The Snows" Shrine. I recall seeing Dave live at that free concert. It was at in front of the main shrine, on a golden, warm Fall afternoon. He was accompanied by the most beautiful modern dancers who did choreography to his music. That day was absolutely unforgettable; it was just before his last days

It was amazing how we all listened in total silence and awe; we were actually witnessing Dave Brubeck at a time when all his contemporaries were long deceased and most of us thought Dave had joined them.

Another interesting fact is that Pepper Adams baritone sax sounds all the way "black", which means he's got enough "Blacknuss" to loan somebody else some. "Blacknuss" is not entirely a color thing, it's also a cultural thing; Pepper Adams played with mostly black musicians when he was getting his act together.


Those are just some of my "idiosyncratic" observations in regard to jazz.

By the way, the big "C" affects people mentally; that means you can watch this show all the way live.

Schubert, it was a joy to behold your post; it's posts like yours that make my day.

Pryso I'm glad you share my appreciation of Mr. Brubeck's music, and I think you got where I was coming from.

Acman, I can not believe how many times you post albums that I can not understand why I don't already have; that one will be on order, in vinyl I hope; Roland Kirk is the one I don't have.

Fellows I had major surgery and that will be followed up by chemotherapy.  Chatting with you guys is very important to me, I will post as much as I can.

Frogman, that post was primarily addressed to Rok and his perceptions, which he has stated numerous times.

One's perceptions may or may not have anything to do with "facts", but they are what they are.

I didn't state anything as "fact". What you assumed that I stated as fact, was merely a heightened awareness of the music we call jazz as we listen to it.

Rok's statements and perceptions have often eluded you, just as my post eluded you.

I'm positive using Dave Brubeck's music as an example of what I was trying to get across was spot on; his music lacks "Blacknuss"; but that does not mean that on a scale from 1 to 10, some of his music does not rate a 10.

As "Aficionados" of the highest order we perceive all there is to be perceived in jazz. You jumped to your conclusion by perceiving exactly what I was trying to clarify; that the level of "blacknuss" in the music does not determine the quality of the music.

Since you always missinterpret my posts I'm not surprised that you did the same with this one, but since the post was in regard to Rok's perceptions no point in going any further until Rok responds. (notice no one else responded to that aspect of my post)


Frogman I believe your concern for my health is sincere, even though you were eluded by something intended for Rok.

Before I started this thread, I was exclusively self taught and my time span was limited to "BB" meaning nothing before "Bird" and to whatever was current. Now, I can live without current, that means I have to go sideways or BB to acquire new music.

Jack Teagarden is a name I have been hearing all of my life, but I don't own a single one of his records or know much about his music. Since he's the subject of conversation today, I'll correct that. According to my encyclopedia he does trombone and vocals, was a dominant player in the 30's, toured with Louis Armstrong from 47 to 51 and played with his own groups after that.

Now let's get to where the rubber meets the road, meaning the music.

pjw, I like his music; it's just what the doctor ordered since I'm going back to that time frame I will acquire some of his music.

Alex, the answer to your question is that jazz is not dead everywhere,  just in the USA

Alex it’s nice to see you’re still posting, although what you posted seems to be a little bit outside of your usual arena; my cup of tea when done by Dave and Paul. (just talking)

I'm amazed at how we considered Rashan Roland Kirk just a novelty, and now we know he was pure genus; I dote on every word he speaks as well as his music.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWPUKskCv7E&list=RDyWPUKskCv7E&start_radio=1

I hope Rok gets aboard while I'm still able to post; today was a good day, my only problem was acute pain.

Pryso, the main reason I don't have much Louis Armstrong is because I considered him more of an entertainer than a musician, and I just wanted music.  Although now I know I'm wrong, this confirms how I came to that conclusion.

Rok posted some serious Black female pianists who were on the scene about that time and even before Louis who I was unaware of, and they had to "entertain" instead of just playing the piano; kind of like singing for their supper.

What would Miles have done back in those days?

Pryso, tell me what's readily available on vinyl by Rashan that you purchased recently, it might still be available.

Rok, your post just made my night, it was spot on; we don't listen to jazz (meaning you and I) we perceive it. By that, I mean all the generations of musicians that went into it, before the one we're listening to, and I know Frogman can not understand that.

The same goes for the Delta Blues, we can hear the suffering of the generations that lived on plantations in shotgun shacks; what can you hear when listening to Blues from the UK, it's got to be counterfeit as far as you and I are concerned.

To perceive the music goes much further than simply listening to it. Since that post was primarily addressed to you, and not Frogman, he misunderstood it.


I have just began my stroll through the valley of the shadow of death, therefore I have no idea what to expect, other than a lot of different doctors; I'm not going VA, and being in your prayers means a lot because I know you are a sincerely religious man.

pjw, I appreciate your concerns, and my condolences for your losses. I don't understand why so much cancer; there must be a reason.

Thanks for the tip on "Big T", I will order it.

Wynton is a different story; because he is "maybe" the worlds best trumpet player, we thought he would be the best jazz musician, but he fell way short. A jazz musician has to not only blow the trumpet, he also has to compose jazz, and that Wynton could not do.

Now that I'm going back to Pops era, I will seriously get into his music; not just the hit music that he has, and get back to you; or you can recommend music that I give a serious listen to, although I think "Big T" includes Pops.

"Reality", or "Hard bop in the big city", as they say today; that's what we all have to do in order to make our daily bread.

When I saw "Pops", he was in the movies doing what he did; that was when I was a kid, and it was long before I got into any kind of music; consequently when I became serious about music, I thought "Pops" just clowned around.

From what I can gather, all Black musicians during Pops time and before, had to "Clown around". I would appreciate it if you could find one who didn't Rok.

As long as I am of sound mind, which may or may not be much longer, we will all become true "jazz aficionados".

From what I've read here I would say he not only has great knowledge of the technical aspects of music but also a deep understanding if its development and history.

No one would argue with that, but knowledge does not give one the ability to perceive jazz, which can be compared to "osmosis"; the process of gradual or unconscious assimilation of ideas, knowledge, etc.

"what she knows of the blue-blood set she learned not through birthright, not even through wealth, but through osmosis"

Since I was born in St. Louis, and lived here all of my life, I can most certainly identify with this, but that St. Louis and the one that exists today are two different towns; that's all I got to say about that.

Pryso, for some reason I have to have the whole thing, meaning the play "Ain't Misbehaven"; one tune seems out of place, kind of like a piece of a photograph, but I'm getting into Louis Armstrong.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2TUlUwa3_o



That's another thing about this music with me, one tune wont due it, I have to get in the groove and stay awhile for it to resonate.

Come back at me with some more Lewis in the same groove.

Try this website Rok


    https://www.thefilmcsa.com/aimi19orbrca.html

Frogman, there are times when this forum is an arena of battle; when I'm in that arena, I expect no pity as a result of my health. Having said that "Let the games begin".

nsp, I appreciate your concern, and I'm glad to hear that Wynton has a great body of works; please find and post some of it.

Let us go into the heart of "Blacknuss".


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5q4vWPoKL0



          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbvxZr5mk2s

Frogman, some can, while some can not; some will while some wont; Frogman it's quite evident that you come way short when discussing how one "perceives" music, maybe that's because you're a professional musician, sometimes that's a hindrance on this forum.

Many times you go into one of your long diatribes, speaking technically music wise, and nobody knows what you're talking about but you, and any other professional musician that might be participating in the discussion; I know I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

Let us get back to when your trolley first jumped the tracks, that was about my post on Dave Brubeck that you misunderstood; you thought it was a putdown of Dave, when it was merely an observation of fact; Mr. Brubeck's music does not contain a "drap" of "Blacknuss".

Whether or not that's a good or bad thing depends on the listener. As I and others stated, we love Dave's music, although it lacks "Blacknuss"; kind of like coffee with or without creme. Someone declared that without "Blacknuss", it's not true jazz. Now, could you put your trolley back on it's tracks and address this post.

When I was in St. Louis University Hospital, a young man from E. St. Louis was moved into the room I was in who had been shot up by an AK-47. Since he was in his early twenties or younger, he demonstrated remarkable recuperative powers.

Alex, you add equilibrium to this thread, but we don't need no stinkin books, we're writing one as we go; it's called "The Book of Hearts" and it's composed by the heart, meaning what is in each aficionados heart; the book we're writing is the truest book ever written.

Now, having said that, I must also say that I am disappointed that you still feel the need to make unnecessary judgments and characterizations about what music may mean to someone other than yourself. Very presumptuous of you and quite off the mark. “....just a statement of fact”? Hardly. To be blunt, O-10, don’t think you know what you’re talking about. I hope I don’t have to explain why someone might find such unnecessarily personalized characterizations to be offensive. As always, hoping for healthier dialogue.

I would appreciate it if everyone came back to this, and explain what Frogman is saying, because I don't have a clue; there are so many alternate explanations, but he said it in reference to the following paragraph.


I have come to the conclusion that you and I (meaning me and Rok) agree more than we disagree on the definition of jazz, because your definition is more emotional, as opposed to Frogman's definition which is more intellectual. Jazz with an intellectual bent can be ever so good, but it lacks "Blacknuss".

Pryso, jazz is growing outside of the USA; not only is the drummer smoking, but the rest of the band cooks; I'll give them 4 and 1/2 out of 5 stars.

I also checked the price on that CD and $80 bucks is too rich for me.

Rok, 80 bucks for a new CD is unheard of; I'm waiting for the price to go down, which it will, but can you imagine the demand that pushed the price of that CD so high.

Supply and demand speaks for itself, although I hear "Return to Forever" in some of the music, it still sounds good.

When searching for the current top jazz, this is the best I could do; you be the judge.


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocOCEKMzoI8



The music is good, but I'm not just ready to reach in my pocket; while Senri Kawaguchi had me reaching, just not 80 bucks worth.

Acman, You have very good taste in jazz.

I said "new" Rok, we are all patriotic, but that doesn't change anything.

For ages us jazz musicians had to go to Japan to make a living, the last time I saw Ahmad Jamal in Chicago, Gant the drummer, told me they had tickets to Japan. Ahmad makes his home in Marseille France, that gives you a clue of the changes that have taken place since Les made Swiss Movement, one of the best jams ever.

Kawaguchi Triangle pops and sparkles but that doesn't mean I'm going to load up with it.

Sometimes I have to have greens and cornbread, or maybe black eyed peas and okra; "Soul Food"


                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SHdqD077yY

I was fortunate enough to walk and talk with Grant Green; the musician who shared my apartment one summer was a friend of his who he loved like a brother; even more; musicians have bonds even tighter than relatives; Max Roach and Clifford Brown was an example.

Ahmad Jamal's album "Marseille" is a winner, it grows on you, the more you listen to it, the more you like,

Marseille is a name that reminds me of "Bouillabaisse"; that's a dish I had for the first time in Atlanta and could never get enough of it (everyday for lunch); too complicated for me to make, and too complicated for the other places I've been that had it on the menu. it also reminds me of "Our Man Flint" the movie. It seems the bad guy favored this dish so much that he had to go to Marseille because it was the only place that prepared it to his specifications.


  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epCQ7hOhdKM


Bouillabaisse was originally a stew made by Marseille fishermen using the bony rockfish which they were unable to sell to restaurants or markets. There are at least three kinds of fish in a traditional bouillabaisse: typically red rascasse; sea robin ; and European conger. It can also include gilt-head bream ; turbot; monkfish, mullet; or European hake . It usually also includes shellfish and other seafood such as sea urchins , mussels ; velvet crabs ; spider crab or octopus. More expensive versions may add langoustine, though this was not part of the traditional dish made by Marseille fishermen. Vegetables such as leeks, onions, tomatoes, celery, and potatoes are simmered together with the broth and served with the fish. The broth is traditionally served with a rouille, a mayonnaise made of olive oil, garlic, saffron, and cayenne pepper on grilled slices of bread.



          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmSJYD88wVw



        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-kAvMJo08k

Pryso, it's absolutely astounding how one jazz pianist can mimic another; Miles had a beef with Monk on a session and Monk walked. Fortunately for Miles, Horace Silver was handy. Miles asked Silver to do that "Monk thing" when comping, and till this day, I think it's Monk playing when I hear that cut on the record.

Frogman said he could tell that it wasn't Monk, I don't believe him.

Oscar Peterson, "West Side Story";


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9V3V_rKMWg