There is nothing I hate more than being misunderstood; when people from Boston talked, they assumed they were speaking English, but some of us who also spoke English, failed to understand them.
When you have a crowd of people, from every state in the "United States", such as the first gathering for basic training in one of our branches of service, that's when you will discover, we may all speak "English" but we still don't all understand the English that is spoken from each individual state.
That's what I meant when I spoke of our "origination"; it also has an effect on how we speak musically.
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Disputes are best settled in a way that they no longer linger. In the case of Mose Allison, his obituary says he was a jazz and blues pianist, since we never argue with anyone's obituary, that's settled once and for all, "He was a jazz and Blues pianist".
There must be a way to settle disputes of this nature in a non-arbitrary fashion; if "Wikipedia" says it is so, there it is, case closed for this thread.
Music is emotional, and so are we; consequently we must have a non-emotional manner of settling disputes of this nature in this thread, that closes the case. If someone doesn't like the verdict, I suggest they take it up with "Wikipedia".
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It is our custom to acknowledge the passing of all jazz artists and their contribution to the art. Cecil Taylor contributed greatly to "Avant Garde" jazz. Anyone who considers Avant Garde special, might post links that will enlighten us who might be a shade in the dark.
Thank you Jafant for informing us, and Acman for that link that sheds light on Mr. Cecil Taylor.
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I would like to thank pjw81563 for introducing someone most of us were unaware of, "Ladie Kim". I know this is my first time hearing Ladie Kim or, Kim Zombik, because there is another Lady Kim known for "Twerking". I don't want you to get them confused.
Right now, her CD's are outside of my economic range, consequently I won't be getting acquainted with Lady Kim anytime soon.
Enjoy the music.
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Yo Rok, what is, is what they say it is; we can let it be, or argue for the rest of our lives, and this is nothing new.
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"The Real Diehl"; he is most certainly that. Thanks for that link Frogman.
While it's true that no one can go anywhere without talent, financial backing plus the right environment also go a long way.
I'm sure Juilliard School has changed in many ways since Miles spent his short stint there.
I will certainly keep a close eye, and ear on Mr. Aaron Diehl.
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That is precisely correct Pryso. |
nsp, these are some of my speculations in regard to why new jazz just doesn't "wig" me.
I spoke of "origination", which is where the musician, and the listener came from. When they both came from one of the major cities, they were on the same frequency, and communicated. Now that so much, meaning a large part of our major cities no longer exist, it complicates things. Music does not exist in a vacuum.
Clubs in our major cities were where so many jazz artists honed the art of making jazz. Presently, the jazz environment is in a flux. If you look to somebody from the country to produce good jazz after going to a good music school, you might be disappointed.
So many times I hear about how good the artists in the past are compared to today. I've also noticed how today's artists can excel at playing classical, but not jazz, or they can play jazz as long as it's written down. That tells me artists of today, are as good as artists of yesterday, when it comes to their instrument, but they haven't mastered the jazz vocabulary or feel.
The improvising skills required to play good jazz are honed in night clubs with other jazz musicians. If these clubs, and that environment don't exist, the music has to come up short.
In the meantime, while the new jazz musicians work out the kinks, I'll be listening to the old jazz.
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Frogman, I have pointed out MY observations not yours. Maybe their stylistic differences are so great that I don't consider them good jazz.
Why are the best examples you display are of them playing Mingus's music?
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Mary_jo, "Stupidity" is the first virus; it has had a long head start on COVID-19, and apparently it’s just as contagious; some people are drinking bleach to cure COVID-19, I wonder what they drink to cure stupidity?
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nsp, it's nice of you to be concerned about my health.
Joni Mitchell made a recording of Mingus's birthday party, and sung some songs on that recording; more talking than music, but I found it interesting.
I was only curious about people who are fans of the "avant garde". Even when my favorite musicians go "avant garde", I can live without it; however, if you have some you like, please post it, I never know.
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"Theme De YoYo" was quite advanced; although the words to the lyrics could be changed to make it more accessible, I liked the music.
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nsp, just as I figured, even when I like the artists, I can live without the music; Don Cherry and Gato are a perfect example of that.
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The Model-T was the original ford, but I prefer my late model ford Taurus if you don't mind.
I've got Sam Cooke, and you know I've got lots of Nina Simone in my collection; now I'm looking forward to having these new people as well.
All that, 'on demand' or 'instant' soul gets tiresome.****
Could you two guys expand on that in relation to the music posted? Especially since this is the first time I've heard either one of those people, and I bet a dollar to a donut that youse guys haven't heard them either, so how could they get tiresome?
Iza's got style; that's something that some people can't recognize, and if you didn't dig the guitar licks you got a hole in yo soul, plus the violins made some beautiful music, but I know yall didn't hear that.
I think you both are suffering from "virus lock-down".
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After the musician has learned all that is required, and mastered his instrument, he must then find some music worthy of his knowledge and skills.
In the jazz idiom, music is derived from human relations and expressions; in other words the society in which we live provides the inspiration for the music; without this, where does the musician go for his music. Does he look inside his head? Without additional external stimuli and action, he won't find much material. In all generations, the society at large provided the inspiration for the music; the music is a reflection of a particular society, it is nothing more than a mirror.
I pose this question, "Can anyone present music that is a reflection of today's society?"
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Since it is assumed we are all "jazz aficionados"; we have the right to reject the music for whatever reason we choose.
While others who have been deemed objective experts can qualify the music, as fans and consumers of this music, it's only necessary that we purchase it if we like it.
As OP of this jazz thread maybe I have more responsibility than others, but I have always shared that responsibility as to what is "good jazz" and we have come to a unanimous conclusion.
While I have my opinions in regard to specific cuts on an album, as well as the album itself; they have never been too far outside prevailing views of other members of this forum.
If anyone of us finds the societal moves away from “old school” values to only be a negative and without any redeeming value (iow, the type of person who believes that society today and it’s values is inherently worse than in the past) then that is the type of individual who is more prone to not like or appreciate art that reflects the current society regardless of that art’s ultimate quality as defined by criteria that are not only subjective, but also objective.
That is a very difficult paragraph to interpret, but I would never accept anything just because it's new.
Back to the original question, "Can anyone present jazz, or any music that is a reflection of this society"?
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Pryso, I think you have hit upon something, maybe that's why we never discuss "current" music, because there is very little worth discussing.
I noticed sometime ago when I bought a fairly current CD, it only had 1 cut that appealed to me, now I don't even bother.
What we talk about and like as a forum speaks for itself without my input.
I'm still waiting for the "new music", and I want each one of us to make sure they comment on it.
After this, we will return to whatever we like as individuals, and are comfortable with.
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Those "Disco Days" were the very best for the nightclubs and Atlanta Georgia was on fire; that's where I was.
There was a place called "The Candy Store" that had a floor made out of multicolored translucent tiles that were lighted from beneath with flashing lights synchronized to the music, and even yours truly looked like John Travolta on the dance floor when the lights under me flashed to the music.
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My request to specify music to reflect today's society was not, nor did I intend it to be music specific.
Since I see and analyze this society from the top to the bottom under a magnifying glass, I see it like it is; the top could care less about the bottom;"Raise yourself up by your bootstraps."
I saw an adult young lady from the Bronx in New York City, who had been cast into the spotlight, and could not even speak decent English. I could see she was aware of this, and uncomfortable speaking to the Nation on an award show, but they wouldn't let her go, and she did the best she could, which was horrible.
She was intelligent; I determined that from how she managed to get out of a hell hole, and succeed. How could a place with so many rich people fail her so miserably in the school system? (I am who I am)
Donald Fagan has acquired a unique fan club, of which I am a member.
"I'm Not The Same Without You"; a very different perspective.
I liked the music, but failed to see how it is a reflection of society; although I'm better off without you was a different perspective.
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Acman, fortunately young people are always about the heart.
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Frogman, my collection is full of Grover; even the pictures of him on the cover of his LP’s are highly significant; his dress was the casual epitome of style for whatever time they appear, and similar articles of clothing could be found in my own wardrobe.
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"Desmond Blue" is one of the most beautiful tunes ever recorded, and that includes the cover; that girl very closely resembles my high school honey, including the scarf. Paul Desmond – alto saxophone Albert Richman – French horn (tracks 1-4, 8 & 9) Phil Bodner (tracks 5-7), Robert Doty (track 1), George Marge (track 1), Romeo Penque (tracks 2-9), Stan Webb (tracks 2-4, 8 & 9) – woodwinds Gloria Agostini (tracks 2-9), Eugene Bianco (track 1) – harp Jim Hall – guitar Gene Cherico (track 1), Milt Hinton (tracks 2-9) – bass Connie Kay (track 1), Bobby Thomas (tracks 2-9) – drums Unidentified string section conducted by Bob Prince Jim hall is especially outstanding on this album. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT5zGYaUN_Q |
"Sometimes it's the song, at other times it's the singer"; nobody went wrong with "Ode to Billie Jo", which means it must have been the song.
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Nancy Wilson is the most "popular" jazz vocalist I can think of, her voice is definitely the most romantic.
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Pryso, Julie London the sexiest, and Nancy Wilson the most romantic; two different things, no conflict. |
I mention Donald Byrd a lot; I was just listening to "Flight Time" just before I sat down to check the thread. |
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Thank you Acman, that's the first time I ever saw her live; well almost live. I have CD's by her that I've just come to appreciate, and Houston Persons is a big plus.
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Julie London's "Sway" is my recurring fantasy of nights in the Caribbean Islands where stars fall out of the sky because there are too many of them, and since this is a fantasy, I'm swaying with Julie London under the palm trees.
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Frogman, and nsp, many years ago when I was in my early twenties, the owner of a lounge decided to turn it into a private club, and locked the door. (we were all friends) Besides the pungent aroma of weed, I recall hearing that tune, "It Never Entered My Mind" many times; it seems that everyone was in the mood for it, and the more I heard it, the better it sounded; like I was going deeper into the music each time. This was 3:AM Saturday night or Sunday morning, however you call it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN8y3XhwhE0 |
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Charles Mingus was the most creative jazz musician ever born, he even made other musicians play way over their heads and make music they didn't know they had in them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpMlCDSoxkECharles Mingus – bass Jackie McLean – alto saxophone J. R. Monterose – tenor saxophone Mal Waldron – piano Willie Jones – drums Jackie Mclean blew solos like he never blew before that expressed the first man to walk erect; hence the title. Each time I hear this, I hear deeper into the music; this tune is so complete, it's a picture of the setting when the first man stood erect. |
Be Bop was not evolutionary, it was revolutionary; in regard to the best account of the music, Diz is the most vocal.
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Frogman, you are way off track with that Coleman Hawkins as the first Be Bop recording.
Groovin High doesn't sound like Be Bop; it is Be Bop, the epitome of Be Bop, I might add; when you got Bird and Diz in a Be Bop groove, you got it.
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Frogman, as to "the first" recorded Be Bop, I consider the matter moot; as to early recorded Be Bop, it would be something by Bird, or maybe "Groovin High", but what's more important is "the best Be Bop"; I'll look in my collection, and get back to you on that.
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Jimmy Smith, "The Sermon" ; this is definitely one of the top tunes in jazz. It's best savored like expensive brandy or scotch; meaning the important contributions of each individual artist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IKC2BW4pxc Tracks 1, 3 Jimmy Smith – organ Lee Morgan – trumpet Lou Donaldson – alto saxophone (lays out on 3) Tina Brooks – tenor saxophone (lays out on 3) Kenny Burrell – guitar Art Blakey – drums Track 2 Jimmy Smith – organ Lee Morgan – trumpet George Coleman – alto saxophone Eddie McFadden – guitar |
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