Frogman, your allegations against me have revolved around the same thing and they are always true, and first I'll reveal why they are true.
When I began this thread, "Jazz For Aficionados" sounded like a nice title; now I are an "Aficionado" (that was a bit of humor). When one can hear into the center of the soul of the music we call jazz, that is when one is an "Aficionado". I'll give you a very specific example. "Heavy Soul" is an album that has been out since 63; that's when I bought it.
The album didn't get much mention initially, but like a snowball rolling down a hill, it gathered more flakes of snow, and now it's quite prominent among "Aficionados"; oh! there's that word again.
When I heard the depths of emotion emanating from all the musicians on that album, I knew they were saying something that went beyond the music.
"Grant Green", you remember him, his album "Idle Moments" didn't become popular until long after it was out. I heard the often spoke about soul in Joe Henderson's solo on "Idle Moments" long before others. I could go on and on, but now I think you are getting my drift as to why I am considered an "Aficionado".
Although this does not apply to our current debate, it does apply to the debate that is raging underneath.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, you are a politician posing as musician; " Seems to me that a far more productive and insightful approach would be to try and understand the difference between "trumpet player" and "musician" as Learsfool correctly stressed."
Why don't you and Learsfool take that route, I'm concerned with the music coming out of the speakers, whether Diz is puffed up like a frog matters not .
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But, it seems that 'we' are going in circles here, with all that 'new' vs 'old' jazz, with or without 'soul'.
Alex, could you take your time and elaborate on that. I don't think we are going in circles, I think we are getting closer to defining a very complex music.
From my point of view, music is affected by so many things other than music, which have currently gone astray, that music currently is not as good as in the past. While jazz might be most affected, if what I say is true, other genres would also be affected.
"Soul" is a word that exists in many languages, and that's the way it is used in jazz, which differentiates it from "Soul Music".
It would be impossible to describe the music of "Bobby Timmons" without the use of the word "Soul".
Jazz is an evolving music; however, I don't think it's evolving into "Doo Bop", or even in that direction.
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Woody Shaw is an artist I'm not as familiar with, as I would like to be. There were so many top notch jazz artists at one time, that I will have to go back, and pick up on those I missed.
I checked his "Bio" and it's no wonder he reminded me so much of "Diz"; his mother was from the same home town, and it's apparent he crossed paths with Diz a lot. When I buy Woody Shaw, I can get young Diz with good recording quality.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, if only you were as good an Aficionado, as you are a politician; it seems you have your devotees convinced on that Miles thing, but not Acman.
Now if Miles went to New York looking for Bird and Diz? Who made Miles?
Frogman, have you ever heard the term "Modern Jazz"; what musicians is that most accredited to; can you say Bird, Diz , and Monk.
If you want to know who is the better musician, I suggest you read Miles "Autobiography".
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That was one of the funniest movies I ever saw, with some of the best "Soul music" I ever heard.
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Frogman, does everyone have a problem with the word "Soul"? Has anyone heard the album "Soul Brothers Soul Meeting"? As I specified before, the word "Soul" takes on a different meaning from the way it's used in "Soul Music". You, Alex, and Learsfool, seem to have a problem hearing and understanding the depth and meaning of that word; maybe if you listened to the album with Ray Charles, and "Bag's", or the one titled "Bean Bags", you might be able to comprehend the word. By the way, that has nothing to do with our present debate; that's why I'm bringing it up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhgUUe5czxc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHold6ylvEMEnjoy the music. |
Apparently, it's time for "Down and dirtY"; you guys don't even know the time span, or jazz musicians who were influenced by "Bird and Diz". I use the two because they are responsible for what's called "Modern Jazz"; they "can not" be separated; try "Bird Diz" music and influence. Read what Lennie Tristano has to say about this music.
Since Miles couldn't wait to catch up with "Bird and Diz" in 1944, the music they were working on was before then, which means it covers quite a time span. It was a mass movement from swing to "Be-Bop", which slid into "Hard-Bop" and "Modern-Jazz". The ease with which all of this merged into "Modern-Jazz", the catch all for the jazz of a few decades is astounding.
So many of "Your" favorite musicians give "Bird and Diz" credit for their inspiration; I'll let you name them; but when you compare Miles "Revolution" in jazz which was not universally approved, to Diz,n Birds "Mass Movement" to something as broad as "Modern Jazz", you will find that Miles comes up way short when we look at "The Big Picture."
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Apparently, it's time for "Down and dirtY"; you guys don't even know the time span, or jazz musicians who were influenced by "Bird and Diz". I use the two because they are responsible for what's called "Modern Jazz"; they "can not" be separated; try "Bird Diz" music and influence. Read what Lennie Tristano has to say about this music.
Since Miles couldn't wait to catch up with "Bird and Diz" in 1944, the music they were working on was before then, which means it covers quite a time span. It was a mass movement from swing to "Be-Bop", which slid into "Hard-Bop" and "Modern-Jazz". The ease with which all of this merged into "Modern-Jazz", the catch all for the jazz of a few decades is astounding.
So many of "Your" favorite musicians give "Bird and Diz" credit for their inspiration; I'll let you name them; but when you compare Miles "Revolution" in jazz which was not universally approved, to Diz,n Birds "Mass Movement" to something as broad as "Modern Jazz", you will find that Miles comes up way short when we look at "The Big Picture."
Let us examine what Miles has to say about Dizzy Gillespie.
"The greatest feeling I ever had in my life-with my clothes on-was when I first heard Diz and Bird together in St. Louis, Missouri, back in 1944. I was eighteen years old and had just graduated from Lincoln High School. It was just across the Mississippi River in East. St. Louis."
"As much as I loved Bird back then, if it hadn't been for Dizzy I wouldn't be where I am today." After that, Miles goes on and on with two pages almost exclusively about "Dizzy Gillespie".
"I'd go over to his house, and Lorraine, his wife, wouldn't let nobody stay there too long but me. She would be saying to Diz, "What you doing with all them people in my house! Get them out of here and I mean right now!" So I would get up to leave too, and she'd say, "Not you Miles, but all the rest of them people got to go".
"Dizzy was also very, very beautiful and I loved him, and still do today.
Frogman, when it comes to laying down "Bull=7#^", nobody lays down more of it than you, and you always do it in such a way that pits me against somebody else.
Let me give yall the Frogman; "he is willing to destroy the very forum that he started for sharing and discussing the music that he claims to love so much. And destroy it he will by insulting and alienating those who have a different point of view from his and which all evidence shows is much closer to the truth than his point of view. Better to destroy it than to have to deal with having been mistaken about anything that has to do with his personality calling card..."Aficionado". And, yes, all this bulls#% IS one of the main reasons that there aren’t more contributors to this thread. Not that, as he claims, as yet another example of the need to stroke his ego, it is that there are only a select few that have the "insight" or "knowledge" or open window to the "soul" of jazz; a select few that will be smaller and and smaller in numbers until this thread is no more.
O-10, IT WAS you who started this most recent squabble and proceeded to feed it. You asked a question and then proceeded to insult and demean those who factually and in a good spirited way expressed a different point of view from yours. You then, as is usual, proceeded to create smoke screens around your reasons and justifications for your divisive behavior by making statements about things that have nothing to do with the original questions; and you continue to do so. I could address these point for point, but not only am I tired of this, but its all pretty obvious if you just go back over the exchanges. As far as I am concerned you owe everyone here an apology. As always, all this in the hope that this thread can be better than this.
Frogman, you set this up by pitting everyone else against me, as far as "You are concerned" I owe everyone an apology" Is that a fact?
According to the great "Schubert" Someone needs to start a new jazz forum and leave the jerk to HIS circle .
Anytime there is a squabble, it can be traced back to the Frogman, who always points the finger at me, and then he comes up with the small number of people on this thread which has lasted longer than any other thread on "Audiogon".
Well, I say to you Mr. Frogman, you have my blessings on your new thread.
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When I was very young, and forming my opinions of music from the movies, there was a movie set in Brazil with Glen Ford, that had music I really liked, and for all these years, I thought the music was from Brazil. I didn't know until Frogman told me, that the music was from Cuba.
Also, there were these movies set in Mexico with really beautiful music, and naturally I thought the music was Mexican, but it wasn't, the music was Cuban. If those movie makers used Cuban music, I feel they could have mentioned it somewhere.
I want everyone to know that enjoying their contributions really makes my day.
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Some how or another, people think the world is going to run out of toilet paper, and they don't want to be caught short.
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Cgoodwin, you do your thing and I'll do mine.
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Does LA have smog? Does a dog have fleas? I recall flying over the Grand Canyon on a day so clear that you could see that "pot hole" in detail; not a cloud in the sky, and that's precisely what it looked like from 40,000 feet; just like a pot hole, not even a very big one at that.
Not long after that the "fasten seat belt" light came on, and they announced that the temperature in LA was a balmy 75 degrees. The temperature in St. Louis was 6 degrees below 0 on that very same day, so I was really looking forward to LA.
Shortly before landing, I saw an orange cloud down below us; we flew down through that orange cloud, and that was LAX. St. Louis at 6 below was better than LA at 75; you could breathe in St. Louis.
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Thanks for Aretha Mary_jo; she reminds me of better times, like when I saw her in the most elegant club I had ever been to.
This was in 66 when she was a young and pretty. That was the first time I had ever gone to a club with valet parking plus coat and hat check girls; that was only in the movies.
It seemed that everybody in Detroit drove a brand new car at that time, plus they lived in nice homes with "Rathskellers" for entertaining. I was so impressed with the town that I thought about moving there. As a matter of fact, I put in an application where they built "Greyhound Buses". A week or two later, I received a telegram to come on board. Detroit was too cold at that time, and it always seemed to be snowing, so I remained in St. Louis.
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Now that we're under "lock down" all I've got to do is share my memories with you; aren't you happy? What? OK I'm just sharing my memories with Mary-jo, blah! Another time Mary-jo, I recall flying into LA on a clear night; that was fantastic, LA might be the only city where you actually can tell that you're flying over a city, that's because it's so big; plus you're traveling at 600 MPH which means you can cover a lot of ground real fast, it's the only city I recall flying over. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9vNFk-JjSU (I could live without the music) |
Is this toilet paper thing world wide, or just in the US. Could I fly to Hong Kong, or Singapore and get toilet paper?
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ludicrous
so foolish, unreasonable, or out of place as to be amusing; ridiculous.
I went to Walmart for toilet paper, among other things. The store I go to stocks enough toilet paper for an army; shelves 7 feet tall and very long; they were empty.
Does this virus give one the eternal Poops?
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Ghosthouse you are not all alone; however, I am presently, deeply involved in some of life's other entanglements. I'll get back to on your latest posting after I have given them a long listen.
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Schubert, Anita O' Day has been one of my favorite jazz vocalists since God knows when. I think everybody else already knows that.
Enjoy the music.
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Ghosthouse, here's a very good description;
A jazz fusion supergroup comprising bassist John Pattatucci, keyboardist T Lavitz, drummer Dave Weckl, electric violinist Jerry Goodman, and guitarists Frank Gambale and Steve Morse. School of the Arts throws everything into the pot: jazz, rock, blues, country, Latin, and classical, but this wide-ranging eclecticism works remarkably well. This is due primarily to the staggering technical expertise of the musicians involved. While there's no shortage of chops (as amply demonstrated on the solo passages on the tunes "On Fire" and "Fairweather Green," for example), there's also an impressive interplay and sympathy, making SCHOOL OF THE ARTS a fusion lover's dream come true.
They remind me of Jean Luc Ponty's group in a super groove.
Enjoy the music.
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In regard to the bigger questions that have consistently been raised on this thread, such as old jazz VS new jazz, I think each individual will have to answer that question for themselves.
With me, it's all music, and the "old stuff" that's locked in a vault, shall remain there; any new music does not necessarily have to fall into a "genre", but can fall into one of two categories; "like", and "don't like".
Enjoy the music.
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"Any new music does not have to fall into one of the jazz genres"; I classify "like" and "don't like for new music; nothing can be more simple; I like that.
Arguing over whether or not music is jazz, is a complete waste of time.
Enjoy the music that you like.
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Most of those 100 albums that shook the world are in my collection; it's a collection that goes back to just before Clifford Brown was killed in an automobile accident, meaning that's when I began to collect jazz LP's.
You could not find a better place to start a jazz collection than selecting from that list.
Enjoy the music.
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Well guys, now that we have made a distinction in jazz, called "jazz-jazz", can we make some distinctions in "Blues". I'm not partial to "Delta Blues"; the reason I mention that is because I think we should have a vague definition of everyone's likes and dislikes.
While the blues in jazz is often spoke of, it's not well defined; there seems to be some ambiguity when talking about "The Blues"; would anyone care to chime in on that?
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It's too bad Rok is not still around, I considered him the authority in our circle on "The Blues".
Ghosthouse, with the Blues, you have to go by what you hear, instead of what you read. Roc said almost all singing Blues is Delta Blues, and he was right, because if you listen, so much of it is the same music with different words.
I imagine what you have posted is from some "authority" who probably knows less about the Blues than you. The people most responsible for "Guitar Blues", yelling, howling, screaming, crying blues, could, neither read nor write, and they go way back.
If we're going to talk about the blues, we should have a better definition of what we're talking about.
Enjoy the music, and I guess that includes, "Da Blues".
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Ghosthouse, I go back to the time when I bought the album, and I'm surrounded by the memories of that time when "Mahavishnu" was hot. No, I don't have it on my "playlist"; that's reserved for some of the cuts off the best 100 jazz LP's or similar.
Fusion sounds good once in a blue moon but not on a consistent basis. The title "Cosmic Messenger" says it all; we're in outer stellar space or someplace only your imagination can take you.
Most good "jazz" is about human beings and things you can relate to; while good fusion is for exercising your tweeters, and imagination. Personally I prefer to get into one zone at a time.
Rok, knew cotton fields, juke joints, and the people who made the blues, while others wrote and observed from afar; especially when you're talking about the "Delta Blues". I could always read between the lines of what Rok wrote and that's where the foundation of the blues lies. That's why I proposed a work shop of sorts, to define what the "Blues" is to us individually; otherwise it's quite ambiguous.
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Since the "culture" is so intertwined with the music; as a matter of fact, the music is a result of the culture when speaking of "Delta Blues" (economic and social); when I hear the music, I hear all of this without any separation.
Blues interpreters (as you call them), have come along with a version that includes more rock, and therefore sounds better to more people; especially since the cultural element has been diluted.
I can understand why this would be preferred to the undiluted blues, and since music is for the music lovers pleasure and enjoyment, thus more popular.
"Fusion with soul", now there's a hybrid beast if I ever heard of one. "Weather Report", one of the leading proponents of fusion, might have accomplished that. Personally, I like soul and fusion on different plates, but that would be interesting for a new thread.
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Ghosthouse, it seems we're going on the same track in the right direction; I was just thinking this is a good time to help you with you're new collection.
The very best music is that which has withstood the test of time and repeats; no matter how many times you've heard it, it still sounds good.
That quote is quite valid; it makes for a play list that's so long, you're ready to hear the first one again by the time it comes around.
"The Jazz Crusaders" is one of everybody's favorite groups; they successfully went through a number of changes, coming up with something better each time.
Now is a good time for the rest of the 'aficionado's' to assist in helping you to build a choice collection without waste of money; meaning to buy albums that you later become dissatisfied with.
Enjoy the music.
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Ghosthouse, I would like to know what you have selected that stands the repeated listening test? After I hear them, I'll select from my collection CD's that I think you might like.
Happy listening.
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I had no idea that was originally a Spanish tune. It has come to my attention that going back in time, so much music on movie soundtracks, and a lot of Latin music in general was never accredited to Cuba. Now I can tell when the music has a Cuban lilt.
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Do you have "My Spanish Heart" by Chick Corea? The reason I asked, is because this two album set has so much music in it, that you can't go wrong here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KE_I6d5m9EThis is just one cut. That's only a fraction of all the elements this two CD set contains. Enjoy the music. |
Ghosthouse, it's important to me personally in regard to any selections you make from that 100 top jazz LP list. It will help me select albums from my collection that I have enjoyed a lot over the years.
Fellow Aficionados, I believe that this exercise will help juice up our present collection; now we'll catch those albums that got by us in the past.
Enjoy the music.
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I saw a message, but not the list, post it here. |
Ghosthouse, this is a very productive list; it tells me that "jazz jazz" might not be your cup of tea, but it also tells me that music you should be on the quest for, is new music that's not in my collection. In other words, we might be on the same quest for the same "new music".
It will take time to perform a thorough analysis of your list, and after I have completed it I will get back to you.
Out of curiosity, I would like to know what everyone else makes out of Ghosthouse's list?
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"I hear Brubeck"; it's for sure the piano man listened to Brubeck.
That's "jazz jazz" Ghosthouse, and I like it.
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Both of those dances bring back memories of some of the best times in my young life. I recall a girl with large hips who really swung them to the "Slop". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbcXTP7MNbsHere's the music, "Git up and go for it". |
When I was 15, I recall walking past a nightclub (the Manhattan) with a large picture window and seeing this teenage girl with three grown women having a drink, (Pink Lady). She was so pretty, and dressed up to look like an older woman. She could dress up to look like an older woman if she wanted to, but she couldn't fool another teenager, especially this one. I went in, and got a bag of potato chips to get a closer look. At that time, she was just a pretty teenage girl trying to look like an older woman; that was before she became the famous "Tina Turner"; I'm not sure if she was even entertaining at that time, but it was the same club where she began her career. (She was 16 at that time). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0sAgm9Vz50 |
