Jazz for aficionados
Schubert, today's doctors and hospitals are most impressive; in my case they're dealing with unknown stuff related to the US Government (VA, besides old age), and they seem to be making a remarkable amount of progress; reminds me of "Star Trek", the way they do analysis. Your concern helps Schubert, and I appreciate it. Enjoy the music. |
This record seems to have been our most impressive in some time; I'll have to get it. I've not posted lately because I was in the hospital for a few days; old age was the diagnosis. "A Story Often Told But Seldom Heard", with just Roland Hanna, and George Mraz, is very intriguing; so much so that each repeat play reveals something different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVXvNaMC3FI If all this is a repeat, that's just an indication of how impressive it is. This is the most "sublime" version of this song I've ever heard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyTNcWYxv94 Enjoy the music. |
This is a good time for me to show my appreciation for artists that have given me so much pleasure over the years; in this case, a specific sideman. When I think of a record by Donald Byrd, Lee Morgan, or Charles Mingus, I never think of the sidemen who worked so hard with their unique talents to make that record a hit. One side man in particular I would like to feature is "Pepper Adams" and the part he played in my favorite records. I heard these records on the jukebox when I was living the life that only allowed you to assess the music from what you heard because there was nothing to read when the music emanated over some clubs system from the jukebox. Donald Byrd, "Here Am I"; focus on Pepper Adams baritone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CewhwrPi044 Here again we hear Pepper Adams smoking baritone, but I for one, didn't think much about because it was Lee Morgan's record. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo0P2YugUnU&list=PLEE6B352B63B2B0CC Listen to the way Pepper Adams smokes this tune on the LP headlined by Mingus; my point is, Pepper Adams was one dynamite sideman on baritone that I didn't give the credit he was due. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__OSyznVDOY Enjoy the music. |
Love is an intense feeling of affection and care towards another person. It is a profound and caring attraction. On the other hand, lust is a strong desire of a sexual nature. Young people go into a state of "lust" whenever they see another beautiful person with a boss body. "Love" is a passionate feeling towards another person that's developed over a period of time. A "true" crime of passion is one where the perpetrator had not an inkling of a thought they would commit such a crime against the person they loved just prior to the event. I'll give you a scenario; the woman is cutting up chicken, she has a long butcher knife in her hand (naturally). Words are exchanged ( they are having a lovers spat, but are not yet married, which is something she wants) For some reason, he says "There is no way I would marry you"; she twirls without thought or hesitation, with the (unconscious) intention of plunging the knife through the center of his heart. If the guy was agile enough, he deflected the knife and wound up with a slight scratch; but if not, there was a corpse on the floor with a knife protruding from it's heart, and a woman wandering how it got there. Lust involves the satiation of desires that are of a purely sexual nature, and could involve deviant people that are already off the "normal" chart who could have a proclivity for murder. The person who commits the "true" crime of passion is as normal as sunshine; somebody said or did something that unleashed the passionate love they felt, and turned it into a violent rage that was on automatic, and could not stop before the deed had been done. |
Lee Morgan was to the trumpet, what Charley Parker was to the alto sax; every one wished he had lived a long and creative life, even Helen Morgan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AQojVIUmbc&list=PL49B0943B4B9DCDFD Enjoy the music. |
Strateahed, Miles Davis had the biggest ego of any musician who ever lived; that fact alone indicates why he never had anything to say about Lee Morgan, and at the same time, it makes a humongous statement in favor of Lee Morgan. It's one thing to look back at history, but it's altogether another when history is right now; on the street, the conversation was always hot among Aficionados about the best trumpet shortly after Clifford Brown's death. While I always took Clifford Brown, I was always challenged by Lee Morgan fans. In hindsight, it was because I had not heard enough of Lee Morgan; today I consider it "possibly" a toss up leaning toward Lee Morgan because of his output of so much outstanding jazz. It is because of discussions like these, that my collection is gaining in the most sparkling contributions of modern jazz ever recorded. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, as always, your post is 'technically' correct, but in the looser artistic sense I disagree with it. Diz and Bird, 'technically' correct in regard to "Bebop" the new jazz that progressed into "hard bop"; but in regard to Lee Morgans prodigious creativity in jazz that stayed in the mainstream of jazz without 'flip flopping' all over the place like Miles who was always searching for a new audience, I will take "Lee Morgan" any day. While Lee Morgan idolized Clifford Brown (everybody did, and that includes me) it wasn't Lee Morgans fault that Clifford didn't live longer, and that he Lee Morgan should have such a large output of creative jazz that has withstood the test of time and brought him into the top ranks of jazz trumpeters of all time. As I stated before, when I chose Clifford Brown over Lee Morgan, it was because I hadn't heard enough of Lee Morgan; now that I'm listening to Lee Morgan, I'm amazed at the new creativity that pours out of his horn on each album without ever being repetitive. Enjoy the music. |
Let us XXXXX that statement "Was to the trumpet, what Bird was to the alto". Frogman,it goes beyond personal taste; it involves whose taste is most concurrent with "the street" meaning aficionados from New York, Chicago, and St. Louis, in regard specifically to "Hard Bop". There is no way we can can put this current discussion under that big "amorphous" tent called "jazz". Lee Morgan almost became a subject unto himself; his blazing solos with Blakey yelling "Git mad!" behind him. The artistic merit of "Search For The New Land", the music of which could easily be turned into choreography that told a deep story of a lost people searching for a new "Spiritual Land". The more I search for Lee Morgan, the more I find; I ran out of my search for Miles Davis sometime ago; it's impossible to tell where personal taste ends, and some kind of objectivity begins. However, I will say that I knew people who knew Miles, and loved him like a brother, but had a different opinion of a lot of his most current music. Would you have been in "Slugs" every night to see and hear Lee Morgan, if it had been convenient? I would be willing to bet that "Nica" went there, and let the wine heads guard her Bentley. There is no way we can, nor do I want it to be an objective discussion; either you heard Lee's blazing solos like I did, or you didn't. |
Musicians make their marks and move on, Charley Parker was an exception, I don't see music as a series of building blocks from one generation to the next, as in electronics, but for the most part musicians make their mark and move on. As outstanding as this music is, I don't see how it fits in the context of musicians who went before them. What did Miles contribute to this? I just can not get my mind wrapped around your question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVXvNaMC3FI Enjoy the music. |
Pryso, the only thing that influenced that incredible music was those incredible musicians. The music was "West Coast jazz" that was as good as it got. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8xol6A9ye8 Baritone Saxophone – Jimmy Giuffre Bass – Ralph Peña Clarinet – Jimmy Giuffre Guitar – Jim Hall West Coast jazz was California and movies, it was always visual if you had a vivid imagination, plus it had "movement", like in the movies for movie soundtracks. West Coast was also laid back and had a certain kind of mood. It helped if you were there and in that frame of mind, but it worked just as well if you were in an LA frame of mind no matter where you were; LA was an entirely different place at that time. |
All about "Manu Le Prince"; http://www.manuleprince.com/en/bio_en.htm I most certainly will have to hear more of her; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80gqNFDYn98&list=PLvxmRiKHlbax1KjzcS5dca5HDmcHrjcdi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRaxvTxTpjA |
Brand new jazz review Julius Hemphill, "Dogon A. D."; this is my kind of music. Before I get into the music, let me share what I know about the Dogon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon_people It has been claimed that the Dogon have rituals honoring a planet or star not yet discovered; how far out can you get? Here's the music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWkma6Uzc0w I like to go into a deep state of meditation and let my imagination run wild; with the Dogon people worshiping an unseen star, plus this music, you can take interplanetary travel on this one. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, it is more "logical" that you are right. "Moreover, just as there are “retro” Jazz artists still playing Ragtime and Dixieland, I have no doubt that there are drummers in Africa that can still play in the style of those centuries old drumming traditions." This is probably true, but I only see and hear what is current in Africa, plus they seem to want to get closer to what's popular, while I hear ancient rhythms from Brazil and Cuba as well. |
I was invited to move to LA, and it was most impressive; those "Golden sunsets" on a clear day were too much for words; the sun took forever to set. Not like everywhere else where now you see it now you don't; The Sun takes forever to sink into the Pacific, and in the meantime it casts a most beautiful "Golden glow" on everything, and everything has a golden tint. That's a fantastic time to be riding in a convertible with friends; you just ride, look at pretty girls, enjoy the scenery but never stop until the Sun disappears. LA had a big downside for me; those freeways; I liked to party on the weekend, and if you partied and got on the freeway, your next stop would be the morgue. St. Louis is neighborhood, since there were many bistros surrounding the apartment where I lived, I could almost crawl home after a hard night on the town. That was a big selling point at that time. |
Currently, I'm in a "Billy Bang" frame of mind. Billy Bang was a "Tunnel rat" in "Nam"; he explored the underground. Billy went into tunnels where the VC hung out, and when they left, they left deadly snakes hanging by their tails to greet whoever came in after them. It was Billy Bangs job to clear those tunnels, even when they had the deadly "Two step" hanging around. When he bit you, your next two steps would be your last two steps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jke3UaOP8Rw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryU4UL9E0Fo |
Mark Masters "Blue Skylight" received 4 stars for performance and 4 for sonics in this month's issue of "Stereophile". I'm listening to it as I'm typing this; I like it, it's reminiscent of bands I've liked in the past. I even like the title "Blue Skylight"; it evokes memories of "The City"; I have come to believe a city that is romanticized in my memory, for this is "City" music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwxtbzrrVQw&list=PLTaU_hpEJweUt9LE-yu7hw609Nu8GiJ8o I will most certainly buy this album. Enjoy the music. |
While Gerry Mulligan played West Coast, East Coast, and all the coasts in between, for me, he was the most intense West Coast musician; he could play music that evoked the California sea coast complete with waves washing upon the beach. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSWWpLYBT7A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DfkPCx6eMk |
Strateahed, your evaluation of Lee Morgan and Miles was the best anyone could have written; while Miles couldn't "out blow" Lee, he conquered "time", which is something relatively few "jazz" musicians conquered; there are so many Miles Davis's that you can have a small collection based on any one of them. Enjoy the music. |
Strateahed, Somehow I don't get this statement, " As Frogman has said, the removal of Davis would have changed the development of jazz much more than the other two, and I think this would have been true even if Morgan and Brown had lived as long as Miles." Beyond Diz and Bird, I don't quite get this development of jazz. Jazz musicians I've known were such staunch individualists, that I couldn't hear how they were affected by Miles one way or the other. It could be said that Miles led jazz in "fusion", but not all jazz musicians were into fusion. The more I think about Frogman's and Learsfool's statement, the less I get it; I need help on this one. |
Strateahed, I'm from St. Louis, and I've met just about everybody in Miles family. The people who loved Miles and his music in the beginning, still felt unwavering love for Miles the person, but privately, they felt he could leave some of his new music on the doorstep when he came to visit them, which is something they would never admit publicly. Miles brother and I have similar tastes in jazz, and his taste couldn't change to accommodate some of Miles music after "Bitches Brew". I have seen and discussed things from the very opposite point of view as you presented. But when you think about it, if your brother were a musician, and fell to banging on garbage cans, you would love him no less. My point is, I have known a number of Miles "original" fans who have a negative view of his music after "Bitches Brew"; Miles knew this would happen after he made radical changes in his music. |
Frogman, Miles continued to gain new audiences, but I believe this discography will certify when he left his original audience behind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_Davis_discography My most current CD's by Miles are nothing but dust catchers, but before then was "Live Evil", which was heavy fusion, and then "On The Corner". His sense of aesthetics left me behind, and I found other artists to be more pleasing. I suppose if I had listened more intently I could have gotten where he was coming from, but I refuse to put forth a lot of effort in regard to understanding and enjoying music; either it grabs me or it doesn't. Why don't you post the most current music by Miles that you like. |
The 58 Sessions were more to my liking; nothing is more beautiful than this "On Green Dolphin Street". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrVnm66joQk Each artist's solo takes me sailing off on a cloud. A lady fan of Miles introduced me to this LP; I like recalling sweet memories. There was a club that played this on a big outside speaker to drum up business, and I can recall how sweet Lucky Thompson's solo sounded, reverberating off the buildings on a foggy or misty night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMW3RloxEyA Enjoy the music. |
I knew a guy who went to school with Miles, and had every record he had ever recorded as late as 66; he was an original fan. I'll bet $2.00 to a donut, that he didn't like that record. That was the worst selling record Miles ever put out, his career took a big dip after that record. The only people who got it, were those who came on the scene long after that record was released. |
"What the holy smoly is this?" is what I thought when I put it on the turntable; however, had I known what it was supposed to be, I might not have taken it back to the record store. Regardless how some rave about it, I can still live without it. I guarantee he did not carry one original fan along on that trip. Miles was Miles; what else can you say? |
For years and years Miles made a lot of beautiful, and exciting music that I bought and liked. This went on until his obsession with "different" led him to strange audio lands; they were too different for me anyway. "Different", but beautiful is how I would describe Miles and Gil Evans; this is a combination that has received very little discussion. No jazz musician that I know of has attracted as many female fans as Miles Davis; Chet Baker maybe, but when I listen to the beautiful arrangements that he made with Gil Evans, that also seemed to be in the collection of every female jazz fan I knew, I realize he (his music) had an undeniable mystique for the ladies that I don't think has been discussed. Since we aren't ladies, we can only speculate, but it seems to me this music has a certain feminine flow. Where do we begin? Why don't we try "Miles Ahead"; this album was released in 57, but was a big seller through the the early 60's for sure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlVrh8t1DE4 This music flows like a cool breeze on a hot summer night. How about "Porgy and Bess"; "It Ain't Necessarily So" ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-EgyUcHSSQ "Sketches Of Spain" made me want to go to a Bull fight; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHEzyqhDASw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qi1hSK5NWo For many years Miles made albums that would be found in every aficionados collection, as well as music collectors who were not specifically into jazz; yes, we all enjoyed the music that Miles made for many years. |
Frogman, it does absolutely no good to make a clarification with you; I stated this had absolutely nothing to do with "Miles the person", but only with his music; which albums they owned. They didn't keep up with what Miles was doing, only which album was doing what? Was it into something or not; there were never any conversations about what Miles was doing. I certainly didn't know or care what Miles was doing at that time. |
Frogman, here's a new name "Noah Preminger"; on this clip he seems to be doing a pretty good Trane imitation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9eiyNqU3_M |
After so much discussion about Lee Morgan, I decided to focus exclusively on Mr. Morgan. You are known by the company you keep, and no where is that truer than when you decide to make an album; Lee Morgan was always surrounded with headliners. "Since I Fell For You" has long been one of my favorite songs going all the way back to "Lenny Welch"; "When you love me, and then you snub me. But what can I do, I'm still in love with you." Been there done that, hope to God I never do it again. Lee Morgan had me crying in my beer all over again; he could tell a story on that trumpet of his like nobody else. My listening room is the den, which has a fireplace in the shape of a large arch; I have tiny Christmas lights around that large arch, which functions as the center of the sound stage; since I don't have to please anyone but me, it's Christmas all year round. The musicians emanate from the fireplace; this room is my exclusive domain. On this particular evening I settled down for some serious evaluation of "Mr. Lee Morgan". "A Night In Tunisia" is a tune recorded by all the heavyweights, and when one places in the top 5, it has to be "dynomite". Lee Morgan's sustained riffs on that tune has not been exceeded by any that I've heard, plus Pepper Adams baritone slicing and riffing right back at Lee's trumpet is the contrast required for maintaining the intensity of this tune. Lee closes it out by riffing like he's in outer space, no body could blow notes that fast, and that clear; which is why so many chose him as the best trumpet ever. "I'm a Fool To Want You" is one of those ballads with a lot of slow burning emotion; that's Clifford Browns territory. While no one can take Cliffords crown, Lee comes close. "I Remember Clifford", I don't think anyone does this one as well as Lee Morgan. My night with several Lee Morgan albums was sustained without one let down. I'm awfully "persnickety" and most of the albums in my collection will have a let down, but Lee Morgan's albums were grade "A" in sustainabilty, meaning they didn't have any dropouts, they kept you on a high level of enjoyment. Enjoy the music. |
Dizzy Gilespie had a very long and interesting career in jazz, and not for one single moment did he lose me in regard to the music he was playing. I think it would be interesting to compare Miles and Diz; what do you guys say? Miles Dewey Davis III (May 26, 1926 – September 28, 1991) was an American jazz trumpeter, bandleader, and composer. He is among the most influential and acclaimed figures in the history of jazz and 20th century music. Davis adopted a variety of musical directions in his five-decade career which kept him at t John Birks "Dizzy" Gillespie (/ɡᵻˈlɛspi/; October 21, 1917 – January 6, 1993) was an American jazz trumpeter, bandleader, composer, and singer.[1] AllMusic's Scott Yanow wrote, "Dizzy Gillespie's contributions to jazz were huge. One of the greatest jazz trumpeters of all time, Gillespie was such a complex player that his contemporaries ended up copying Miles Davis and Fats Navarro instead, and it was not until Jon Faddis's emergence in the 1970s that Dizzy's style was successfully recreated [....] Arguably Gillespie is remembered, by both critics and fans alike, as one of the greatest jazz trumpeters of all time. I think we could learn a lot through this exercise; especially since we have a resident musician; what do you say? |
The tune starts out real nice with piano and bass, plus guitar, but it could do without the brass; that takes it out of a mellow groove, and puts it somewhere else. I could enjoy the tune "Just Friends", without the brass. I don't know if you remember JATP, but they would have Miles, Bird, Rollins and a bunch of other stars on stage making something less than the best music, but that didn't matter because the people came to see all these stars on the stage together; too much is worse than not enough. The brass fit the music better on the last tune. |
**** ....when we look at jazz, unless we accept the premise that it encompasses more than bebop and hard bop, then there is no need for further discussion. **** I refuse to acknowledge that comment for reasons that should be quite apparent. Frogman, there were two Dizzy Gillespie's; one was a sort of musical ambassador who presented what that audience expected; a "bebop" entertainer. There was also another musician who was more serious about "his" music, meaning music he was creating as time went by. I have much more of "Dizzy" than just the beginning, he never quit being serious about creating new music that was linear with modern jazz, but not completely off the track; try this as one example; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj1j4mN7OT0 He reworks this tune in numerous boss ways, the same as "Night In Tunisia" is reworked. Here he is on the ambassador track doing what he was famous for doing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5tRGMHfKrE Miles went completely out of the bounds of what could be called jazz, but since it was Miles doing it, his new fans called it jazz, but his original fans didn't agree. I can't corroborate this because I talked to some of his original fans who were mentioned in his book. What we laughed and talked about personally, they would not admit publicly, but Miles trolley jumped the jazz track. We have too many fundamental disagreements in regard to the music to begin a comparison of those two; consequently we'll have to debate something else. Enjoy the music. PS I never heard Lee Morgan on "Blue Train" before now, it was all just part of the music, but now Lee Morgan is all I hear. |
While perusing the vinyl for new looking records, I discovered one by Herby Hancock that may surprise everyone; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0OGHVjnu9M |
**** ....when we look at jazz, unless we accept the premise that it encompasses more than bebop and hard bop, then there is no need for further discussion. **** That statement implies that I'm so narrow minded, I can only accept "bebop" and "hard bop" as jazz. If that was the case, there would be no need for further discussion. |
"I spent my first week in New York looking for Bird and Dizzy. Juilliard was only a smokescreen, a stopover, a pretense I used to put me close to being around Bird and Diz." Those were Miles very own words; Diz didn't go to St. Louis looking for Miles, he came to New York looking for Bird and Diz; that was from the start, which tells a lot. Dizzy G, was the ultimate "jazz musician" who could innovate like nobody you ever heard; that's how he was able to consistently play "jazz" that sounded fresh and brand new from the 40's until his death. He never sounded "stereotypical", meaning clinging to certain riffs that he repeated, but each time he reworked his old tunes until they sounded new. While Diz never left the "jazz compound" he pushed and re-invented his music in such a way that it was always new and fresh. Throughout most of my "jazz life" I was equally a Diz and Miles fan; that is until Miles trolley jumped the tracks, and I no longer liked his music. Trying to quantify Miles new music would give me a a "brain-ache", therefore I won't, but leave it at the fact I could live without it. Enjoy the music. |
Dizzy might have wasted air, but I don't believe in wasting words. " Again, this is not to say that he couldn't play the trumpet. But it is to say that he was not a particularly good trumpet player, especially as we are comparing him to other professional players". So say's the "Learsfool". That was the umpteenth bogus "Jazz" statement made by "Learsfool"- he was a fantastic musician, but these are not the same. After that, he gets even more bogus, and ends his whole "bogus summation" with "I hope this all makes sense". Yes it does all make sense; it makes "Frog sense". Learsfool, are you sure your on the right thread; this is "Jazz For Aficionados". |
Frogman, you are always trying to "discombobulate" this "Miles" with that Miles, and the other Miles in order to get "Your" Miles on page 1, but it wont work; we all know when Miles Trolley jumped the tracks, and it just kept on going until it was way out in the middle of the cornfield. Now you think you can "nit pick" Diz somehow or another to show where Miles was better, but it won't work, not until "Donkeys fly"; seen any flying donkeys lately? |
Frogman, you and Schubert should both read the thread title together, maybe it will soak in; it's not titled "Classical Music For Aficionados", it's not titled "Music for Musician Aficionados"; it's not titled; thread for "Writing Aficionados"; it's titled "Jazz For Aficionados" and all others can get lost; especially when they attempt to speak with authority. |
Dizzy has been the "only" jazz musician who has not had a "dropout"; meaning an album I could quite well live without since the first time I heard him. The great "Bird" has blown notes that would have been best left in his horn. (The great "Bird" might have needed a quick fix, while Diz never got close to the stuff) Plus, even the best jazz musicians have had short dry spells, but not Diz; that is according to my taste. I don't know how many versions of "Kush" he has recorded; sort of like Monk, and "Round Midnight"; the same can be said for "Diz" and "Night In Tunisia"; no matter which one, I like them all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xncznvkB7S8 The recording quality on this "Kush" isn't the best, but the music is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRPlKDuRHHo Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, here is Miles Davis's last recording; Doo Bop; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ1k_BrA8CI Here is Dizzy's last recording; we'll even let "your panel" be the judge in regard to the best "jazz" recording, and consider that musician the winner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auxl5QbT528 Enjoy the music. |
