Jazz for aficionados

Frogman, he muffed it so bad, I bet most people thought he was just someone trying to imitate Maynard Ferguson.


The guy who looked most like the Maynard Ferguson I saw, was the first one.

Rok, it seems that all your posts are bringing on memories. I was in "Mobay"; that's what they call Montego Bay, and while they had nothing but Reggae at the hotel and in public, when you turned on the radio, nothing but jazz; you would have thought you were in Chicago or LA; Jamaicans were some hip dudes.


When I was LA, a girl I knew took me to a big church where I heard gospel on par with the "Staple Singers"; I got religion that Sunday. The Staple Singers make me want to go to church and repent, although I don't recall offhand doing anything wrong. I got to have some more of that music.



"City, country City"; my favorite cut on that album.



"Rainy Night in Georgia"; I was in Atlanta, and it started drizzling one night, and didn't stop for a week. I remember walking up and down "Peach Tree Street" where I was living in a hotel (work related) and it seemed like it was never going to stop raining. Atlanta is a lonely place when it's raining and you don't know anybody.

Even Wynton's jazz is different from "My" jazz; Wynton could not "make" jazz when he left Blakey. Everybody, including me, thought he would be the best trumpet player ever; he was, except with other people's music, he could not make original jazz.

Latin music is not "African American" jazz, my jazz is the evolution of Charles "Yardbird" Parker; specifically the evolution of "Bebop". His jazz evolved from a very unique race that had been stripped of it's original characteristics, consequently developed something "new" that was it's own; "Bebop".

Frogman, on your first post, there was Wynton Marsalis; he wasn't presenting things from my point of view, he was making his presentation from his point of view. At a minimum, that does have something to do with "Wynton Marsalis".

I thought we had narrowed the discussion down to "Bebop", and what evolved from that. "Jazz" is far too broad a subject to have a meaningful discussion about; as an "Aficionado", that is something I am sure of.

Listen at how "Bird" bops, and at the same time plays the melody of this beautiful tune; the bop is sometime over the melody and even "bops" the melody at times; he does that all the way through this great album; bop riffing all over and under those most musical melodies. Nobody, but nobody else can do that.


                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRkZeGFONg

Rok,
Jerry Gonzalez & The Fort Apache Band -- OBATALA

Great group with a silly name; that sums up a lot.

If I saw this at a record store I would keep walking because of the name, but now I'm going to order something by the Fort Apache Band.

"The Music Of Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers" for sure, will be ordered. This music rates 5 stars with me.


Enjoy the music.

Rok, here is something that will verify all of that which you speak;


          http://www.blackpast.org/aah/scott-hazel-1920-1981

Frogman, when it came to slavery, "NOLA" was different from anyplace else in the USA; some black people owned slaves, white people didn't mess with some black people, some black people were not black, it was a place where original "voodoo" that came from Africa still existed; consequently it has to be removed from any "general" discussion about slavery.

Frogman, Rok is saying not everything has an "African Heritage", some things came "uniquely" from people who are descendants of African slaves. They evolved from a slavery so severe that it stripped them of everything from the land which they came; therefore what was left, was not African anything, unless you can consider a light brown skin, African.

Shubert, is that really you? Where have you been? I'm glad what I heard isn't true.

I know you've been abroad, why don't you tell us all about it.

Jazz is an art form that branched out like the many headed "Hydra"; acid jazz, fusion jazz, world jazz, low jazz, high jazz, slow jazz, fast jazz, smooth jazz, rough jazz; you name it jazz, and on and on; consequently, no one can make a statement about jazz, unless they specify which jazz, now we can add "congo square jazz".

Frogman, tell me how do you like this one;


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeAHASFqvb4

Everything has to have a name, and it got the name "bebop" whether Dizzy approved or not, but this was a distinctly unique form of jazz that could not be imitated or duplicated, nor did it have any connection to Africa what so ever in regard to that origination, not even if you produce an edict from the Pope, and that's the last word on that.

I have a closer connection to this music than some notes written on a piece of paper; I have had a very close connection to a musician who could not read music, but he could produce some of the most incredible "hard bop". The fact that he couldn't read music wasn't as much of a hindrance as you might think. He couldn't read music, but graduates of Juilliard School of Music couldn't produce "Hard Bop". It would have done him no good if he could read music, but couldn't produce "hard bop".

I am certain that the ability to produce this music is beyond comprehension, and there in lies the crux of "Bird's" great music. I like "brevity" that's why I use Bird as a kind of shorthand for the originators, instead of including the other "originators".

The biggest problem with this music was the fact that the "aristocracy" had nothing to do with it's creation. At first they belittled the music, and only begrudgingly gave it legitimacy. After the public accepted this music, they had no other alternative. When they found no way to easily create it, that's when they began to attribute the music to other co-originators, which I assume is what you are trying to do now.

Frogman, this music is akin to resonant frequencies; the music is broadcast on a specific frequency, while the receiver is tuned to the same frequency. If you are not properly tuned, you can not properly hear the music. Staying on the same wavelength as this music, is my life's pleasure.

Well now Frogman, we have never had so many posters at one time, and although an "off topic" subject has been discussed, a lot of good music has been posted also.

We even got Schubert out of hibernation; who should know by now that people who live in glass houses don't throw rocks, especially in this direction.

I think this proves we can chew gum and walk at the same time, but I'm not rejecting your thing about staying on topic; however, what was discussed very much related to the topic.


Enjoy the music.

Speaking of dress, sometime ago when I took the family to "Red Lobster", I dressed in business fashion, sport coat and tie; which was the way everyone else was dressed.

When I wasn't looking, someone changed the dress code, and all these sloppy looking people started coming in; that's when the food no longer tasted as good, (probably the same identical food), but I quit "Red Lobster".

Pryso, what did you think about this;


  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWtqr4VJiCo


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGtN3lpI2f4


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmmJsgfNSIM

You tricked me Schubert, the SE France is near Italy, and you were probably never in the circus; wasn't Circus Du Soleil, was it?

Miguel Zenon is from Puerto Rico, and I like his style; yes, his heritage is part of that. Although he has played with some of my favorite musicians, I'm unfamiliar with him.

He has quite a bit of formal education in music, as many current musicians are fortunate to have on their resume. As has been implied, I do not subscribe to formal education being unnecessary, but merely point out the fact that I know musicians who did not get it. For the record, not having formal education in music is a distinct disadvantage; another to go along with all the other disadvantages some musicians in the past had.

I will look forward to acquiring and listening to "Miguel Zenon" in the future.


Enjoy the music.

Rok, somebody been playing games with your geography book; aside from that, I liked the unusual combination; kind of like okra with champagne.

Rok, if you want to stay on the good side of the Frogman, you got to get into astrology, because it changes; I don't know whether it's on phases of the moon, or when Jupiter is in the seventh house; no, that's not it, the moon in the seventh house!

What I'm trying to say, is when a guys good side keeps moving around, it ain't easy finding the good side.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjxSCAalsBE

One thing is for certain, whether it's old jazz, or old Cuban, it's old school for me. Maybe old Cuban music will get on the good side of Frogman.

Gonzalo Rubalcaba, is he old school or new school? Did we ever close the case on Africa? I am going to have to start keeping a notebook.


Here's the real deal from Cuba; frogman has the floor, who did what, did somebody teach the Cubans how to play? This music is just too good.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYBCVZk_idM&t=213s


Which reminds me of this documentary I was looking at on South Africa; they discovered some artwork, they said had to have come from another planet because native South Africans were not capable. I say the old Europeans hit up on time and space  travel, and did it before the New Europeans discovered South Africa.

Rok, Frogman has the floor, and we are going to listen and learn.

When I hear the Blues, Gospel, Spirituals and Jazz, I hear the USA, primarily, the Southern USA. Ain't nothing like it anywhere else.

Rok, this is what I heard as a child, nothing has changed. Most Blacks are from the South and I don't mean South Africa.

This Cuban music contains the best elements of Africa and Spain; presently, I don't like either one of them undiluted; but they came up with the right combination here. You won't find music this good in Spain or Africa.

I remember when they told me that stuff Ricky Ricardo on the Lucy show was playing was Cuban music. Why did they have to throw "Hollywood" in everybody's music?

One of my favorite old movies is "The Casbah". Katherine Dunham has the part of "Odette" in this movie, and they paid her for this dance thing, which is funny, because I've seen her dance troupe, and I know she didn't tell them to do anything like that.

What's funny Rok, is that although they paid her, they never used her choreography; in the end, they always used whatever funny steps hollywood prescribed. Back then, as long as they got paid, who cared.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LASYzcH67F0


This stuff is really funny when we can use our PC to go back in time.


Enjoy the music.

The most exhilarating and mesmerizing experience I can ever recall from watching live music, was watching and listening to a friend of mine perform who was a wild man on organ. Before I go into that, I have to explain why it was such an incredible experience.

I compare that experience to riding on an old rickety wooden roller coaster because I experienced the same emotions (excluding the fear); I was mesmerized, which is a combination of hypnotized and exhilarated. No recording can compare to being close to a wild man on a Hammond B3; the dynamic range is so wide, that only a reel to reel tape could even come close to duplicating it, plus the frequency range goes beyond audibility, but when you're right there, you can hear sounds that seem to emanate from close to your ear, like a ringing maybe.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy8dZEpEYrA


Jimmy Smith is the closest I can come to duplicating this experience. This is the first time I've even attempted to describe that experience because that music was not recorded, and I can't post a link so that you don't have to take my word for what I'm telling you, but this time you will have to take my word for a most incredible experience that I was fortunate enough to enjoy many times, and each time seemed like the first time.

This "wild man on organ" was a close friend of mine and I drove him to his gigs, that allowed me to witness his performance many times, and each time was so different that it seemed like the first time every time; can you imagine Charlie "Bird" Parker on Hammond B3 organ; my man could play notes on the organ as fast as Bird on alto sax, and they would all be clear, articulate and musical; none of this wild "free jazz stuff"; pure music, the same as "Bird". Improvisatory hard bop is what it was, and after word got around that he was in town, the joint was always packed.

St. Louis was a kind of town with a demand, but no supply; the demand was for improvisatory hard bop, but there was no supply, so when word got around that it was in town, the clubs were packed where ever he played.

He played the biggest stage in St. Louis, that was the 4th of July St. Louis Fair and got a grand write up, that's the only historical black and white evidence that what I'm telling you even occurred, which is why I've hesitated in telling you.

If you can imagine Jimmy Smith playing a little wilder and faster, you'll get an idea of what I was listening to.

I was always seated close enough to where I could see the expressions on his face change as he played; they went from grotesque, to pure ecstasy when he hit a note just right that sounded so good to him that he closed his eyes; I was experiencing the same emotions.

This is the closest I can find to duplicating what I was listening to;


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gobKu4UlxSA


Now that I reflect on it, that was the grandest Summer of my existence.  

Let me conclude our current debate before we move on. That debate concerned "modern jazz" as has been defined as jazz that originated with "bebop" and for our purposes ended in the 70's.

The debate was over whether or not African music had anything to do with the origination of this music, and the conclusion was no it didn't according to the majority of "Aficionados"

Now we are into Cuban music, "Son cubano is a genre of music and dance that originated in the highlands of eastern Cuba during the late 19th century. It is a syncretic genre that amalgamates elements of Spanish and African origin. This is the official definition, and also describes the sound of this music.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpJ4hF8EBZg&list=RDZpJ4hF8EBZg#t=16


This album is an introduction to "Son Cubano"; I hope we can all stay on the same page for awhile. The last time I was able to make a considerable high quality increase in my collection was when we stayed on the same page, and investigated a single musician. I am positive that we have not been exposed to nearly enough of this music, and can make many positive discoveries if we stay into it long enough.

Acman, you seem to have ears for the best in a new genre of music; therefore, I have confidence that you will choose music which I will add to my collection.



Enjoy the music.

Chief Bey put rebop in the bebop, and got religion along the way, can you dig it?


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DHzFOim3Uc&list=PLiGJl0CoGRhttCozknuOVHaCXcUQRY26A

"Bebop" was called everything except a child of God and music; I don't think there were any authoritarians who even considered where "Bebop" came from.

Now if "Bird", Monk, or "Diz" told me they consulted Chief Bey, and got his final stamp of approval on "Bebop", before they could really swing with it, then I would become a believer.

Frogman, I have noticed that every time you have the choice of leading a new segment of jazz, or diving into a "Bruha", you choose going back into the "Bruha" and then blaming me or Rok, for not being able to entangle yourself. No one knows more about Cuban music than you, but yet you choose to point out where "Bebop" was originated in Africa; why do you do that?

Frogman, your objective is not to communicate an idea, but to change the subject and win the argument; that's been pointed out many times. At other times you choose to impress with your long diatribes.

Apparently you and I listen to different Bebop, because what I listen to was not influenced by anything in Africa, and even the influence you're talking about is so minor, you're the only person who can hear it, but the bottom line is the fact that it's so inconsequential.

Modern jazz ended in the 70's, serves to identify what we have been calling "classic jazz", or "jazz jazz". Aficionados can choose to identify and define things within their group that would not fit the universal definition, and that is what we have done, but since you know this, why do you claim otherwise?

The more I think about it, the more ludicrous it sounds, "Bebop influenced by Africa", you must be speaking of "Afrobop"; you win, can we go on to the next thing?

Frogman, I'm capable of communicating with people from various sociological and economic groupings, and quite often express the mood I'm in at the time. Sometime I'm in a hip mood and choose to express myself in a "jazzy" manner.

At other times I'm in a "Southern mood" and attempt to use "good old boy" dialect to communicate ideas unique to the South.

But by now I know it is foolish to communicate to you anything other than that which you wish to be communicated.

Since it's been a long time since I've been to school, please point out any grammatical errors you have found.

Mary_jo, after I heard that album, I wanted to spend the rest of my life on Ipanema beach.

Now back to the Jazz! Bird's the word when we talk about Bebop, and everybody knows that, he is the undisputed King. We are not talking about just a lot of notes played at lightening speed, but music you both hear and feel.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryNtmkfeJk4


This is first of all MUSIC, and second it is Bebop, but first it's music you can listen to and enjoy.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRkZeGFONg


You got it my friend, this is Bebop in between the beautiful music; nobody, but nobody else could do this.

When I first heard "Just Friends", I thought I had discovered something new, that was probably in 59 or 60; when this was done in 49. It still sounds new and fresh to me, as does the whole album "Charlie Parker with Strings".

Thank God I don't hear Africa nowhere in Bird's music.

Rather than for me to take up all the space with my favorite cuts, I prefer you bounce between the album with strings, and "Bird's Best Bop" to find your favorites.

Just one more;
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1bWqViY5F4




Enjoy this music.

Acman, there are things we discussed that are between me, you and the gatepost, and the gatepost don't talk. We'll just have to let everybody else guess about that statement.

When I was going out a lot, it seems that almost everywhere there was live music, there was an organ, and that is the only instrument I can think of that can not be adequately reproduced on recordings, or maybe I'm too aware of the reduction in dynamic range because I became accustomed to live organ.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ch6JA5isa8


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlxxmNP2MKw


The organ solos on these cuts would be mind blowing if you heard them live, but recorded, the dynamic range has to be compressed.

Alex, presently, we are discussing "Bebop" specifically and not jazz in general.

Rok's major complaint is when you talk about jazz currently, anything goes; it's kind of like "Mulligan stew", throw anything in the pot and call it "Mulligan stew".

When it comes to Cuban music, I can not say enough good things about this CD, "Afro-Cuban All-Stars" it covers "Son" which is Afro Cuban music combined in perfect proportion like a perfect cooking recipe.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KODWcrncnUU

Although we went here once, I would like to go again; I'm sure you will find it very rewarding.

Enjoying exquisite music is like enjoying a perfect recipe. I was in Atlanta for a time and discovered a place where they had perfect "bouillabaisse"; every time I went there, having the same dish was an experience, and I had it every day, savoring each spoonful. Nowhere since, have I been able to repeat that experience.

I compare listening to "Son" equivalent to that experience; take your time and let each beat soak in; this music is so perfect; while it says Afro-Cuban, the two are combined to become one, which means you would have to mash the two words together in order to describe it.

This music inspires thoughts of Caribbean fantasy's; one of them I actually lived, but living fantasy's can shorten your life span, they are best left in the realm of fantasies.


Enjoy the music.

Frogman, "Body and Soul" is not "Bebop", nor is Coleman Hawkins a Bebop musician, give me a break.

Music can not, nor should it ever be approached from an intellectual stance. Why would I speak to Billy Taylor or Wynton Marsalis about Bebop? When it was the first corner of jazz I explored.

While Dizzy could be a co-founder of Bebop, Bird was numeral uno.


Don't mean to be harsh, but you have submitted food for the garbage can.

Peter King made a nice tribute to "Bird".

Alex, I thought those posts to be good examples of "Afro-Jazz", while what we were discussing was Afro input into the origination of "Bebop", which is different.

What you have posted is the Afro inclusion after the music had been developed, and it's very good. Diz has included the Afro from Brazil; Bahia specifically.

What does Voodoo have to do with "Bebop"?

Lay it on me dude, I want to hear it too; the afro in the Bebop, before Diz added it onto the Rebop and called it "Afrobop". But since he did it without consulting the "Bird" that would make it "illegitimate", and not worthy of my consideration.

"I just thank God it's all over," said Aaron, who endured months of media interviews, near-constant scrutiny, and death threats and hate mail. He had hired a bodyguard, needed to find temporary living quarters in Atlanta, and registered under a false name at hotels on the road.

Ghosthouse, that reminded me of when I was on this old steam locomotive puffing across the Congo; I can still see the natives waving as we pass and elephants screeching in the distance.

Rok, your post hit the nail dead on the head; there is nothing I can add or subtract.

"Wikiman" I have lived jazz for my entire life, I don't need any musicians to tell me about it; especially bourgeois musicians, regardless how accomplished. I knew African American musicians who could not even read music, but they were able to express the deepest pains of a race of people who at one time did not even belong to themselves.

Although I have never been into any kind of music other than jazz, Chuck Berry has been with me all my life; or every since school when all the other kids were into Rock and Roll, which meant Chuck Berry's "Maybellene".

I recall sneaking into the back door of the "Cosmopolitan", when I was 16, which was a club in E. St. Louis he played often. The only thing I remember is "women", all shapes and colors; where ever there was Chuck Berry, there was women.

While Chuck Berry traveled all over the world, St. Louis was his home, and he always came back.



        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opG44Eqea6g


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1eI4EH-DRg


When somebody like Chuck Berry dies, a person doesn't realize how much Chuck Berry was a part of that person's (my) life as he aged through the years; my eyes are filled with tears now, but I know we shall meet again in a better place.

"Teenage romance and big, fast, over the top American cars. I will always be thankful I was young during those days."

You got that right, I was just thinking of the beautiful "Venita"; those girls will always stay ever so beautiful in your memory; I feel like I can go back there and she will be no less beautiful, still 16.

But I want a different car every other day.

LAY OFF THE "WIKIMAN" JUICE.

Rok, you need some blasting powder and a drill.

Bop that sounds like music, and just any run of the mill sound called Bop are two entirely different things; "Bird's" Bop is listenable.