Fellow aficionados, I have stated that the output of good jazz was affected by adverse economic events. I see very bad economic events that occurred from 2006 through 2008, and then again from 2010 through 2012. These events were like a fire storm for the lower middle class. Although they affected the "upper middle class", they were able to weather the storm.
These events didn't spare any geographical area. While I observed events that were occurring in my neck of the woods, such as large shopping malls going down, I'm certain these same events happened in your neck of the woods. These events occurred because so many people who kept those malls afloat, were left with very little "discretionary income."
Discretionary income is the amount of an individual's income that is left for spending, investing or saving after paying taxes and paying for personal necessities, such as food, shelter and clothing. Discretionary income includes money spent on luxury items, vacations, and nonessential goods and services.
Places where live jazz is played, are the sources of new musicians income, as well as new ideas for music. I recall a place I went to on the weekends that featured a group that centered around an African finger piano. While the instrument was unusual, the musician's ideas were so creative, that I haven't heard anything like it before nor since. That place had to close because of a business downturn. I have mentioned things that occurred in and around St. Louis, and Rok has countered as though these events just occurred in this area. When I mention these events, I am certain that similar events occurred all over the United States of America, at that same time, that affected the same economic "strata".
Rok, mentioned the news, "Do you watch the evening news"? I used to watch the evening news religiously, but when I realized how rarely it concerns me, I quit watching so much. The news is most important to the wealthy, my economic strata is non existent in a general sort of way.
If you are "upper middle class" economically, you weathered those storms that occurred in the four years I mentioned prior to now, but you should be feeling some of the effects now; a lot of things you didn't replace, need replacing now. I also notice strange things in the"Agoner" community; many are struggling to stay in the "high end", while others can buy a 100K amp as easy as buying a bag of popcorn. Also, high end names have gone way up in price, more than inflation can account for.
What does all of that have to do with music? What does all of that have to do with you? As time goes by you will discover these are not normal times, and all of that will affect you. My time began in 2006, and it's affects are still in play; that's very important to allegations I've made concerning the adverse effects of economics to music. I won't provide examples because all the varied cause and effects speak for themselves.
|
Rok, you and a lot of other people say the same thing; while It's not true for me personally, I can understand the validity of what you say.
In regard to "Bird" and "Diz", it's also true for you as well as me, that's manifested in all the "modern jazz" you like that they are responsible for. Think about all the musicians you like who will give "Bird" or "Diz" credit for their way of thinking about music.
I will go back through your posts of "Pops" if I have time, because your posts were of music that he made, while my awareness of him has been as an entertainer; think about old movie clips.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, this represents some of the best jazz of 2016, and I'm sure, that according to Frogman, if I could live very well without it, there is something wrong with my taste in jazz. I think I have already given a description of this music before I even heard it. Now we can get his take on this music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjWiQIBRBqI&list=PLhgRBYq4z5qxoOJ_KN74IwlldurI-g9teIf this ain't a river looking for an ocean, I don't know what is, it sounds like lost people trying to find their way; lets hear what Frogman has to say about this most current music. |
Rok, you have no idea how sad current music is, until you compare it with that Blue Note DVD.
When I got off topic, that got a quick response; but off topic or on topic, we still have no more regular "aficionados" than we do now. When you look at the music forum, the reasons are quite apparent, plus, this is primarily an "audiophile", hangout, not music. When people have 10 different copies of "Kind Of Blue" and "Waltz with me Debbie" ( that last title might be wrong) but you get my drift.
While I have my faults, it seems to me, that it has been stated that if I bent myself around like a pretzel, we would have more regular contributors. I noticed when I stayed on topic for the longest, there were no new names. Now the present topic is old, and new music. Someone introduced some new music that I thought was good; now I didn't say that it was 100% in regard to old and new music, but the general difference is quite apparent.
Never the less, we continue to express our opinions and plod along.
Enjoy the music.
|
Frogman, the Bru-Ha man; Rok made a short comment about the news, I responded with a "short" comment, Frogman took that opportunity to blame those two comments for the fact that it hasn't rained new contributors to this thread; he was wrong and he had to have a goat to scape.
Rok, has consistently come up with "new-old" music; that's good music by the old masters that eluded me; Gene Harris isn't new, but the music Rok presented by him is new to me. Frogman, you are beating a dead horse, when are you going to bury him.
Maybe you should be president; they are professionals at playing "The Blame Game", but none of them ever roll up their sleeves and solve any problems. Don't misunderstand me, new people for this thread might be a dead horse, but blaming me isn't going to make anything better.
|
I kind of liked that "Bergundy Blues", all I needed was a flat foot floosy doing the floy floy, and I would have been in heaven.
|
All these new members we're suppose to gain on this thread is beginning to remind me of a "snipe hunt". The snipe only come out on a moonless night when it's black dark in the hinterlands beyond the edges of the woods.
My first time in the "country", Bill, Dave, and the fellows invited me to go on a "snipe hunt"; since they didn't invite just anybody to go on this hunt for the elusive snipe, I considered it an honor.
One dark night, they told me the snipe should be running on a night like this; we went out in the woods, way out in the woods. "Say guys, just how far do we have to walk to get to the snipe hunting ground"?
"we're almost there" Dave assured me. "Since you have been elected to be the one who bags the snipe, you take this "snipe bag", and hold it open when we tell you we done spotted one, and chasing him your way".
There I was, in a small clearing way out in the middle of the woods, when Dave yelled out "Snipe on the run".
I had the big bag open, just waiting for the snipe; I was listening too, because he had to make some kind of noise coming my way through the woods. That's when I remembered I forgot to ask how big the snipe was? "If he's too big, the fellows will come and help me", I told myself.
I waited, and waited without hearing a single sound; before I had heard them beating the bushes running the snipe out, but now there wasn't a single sound. After about a half an hour, I began to have serious doubts about the snipe. I know they wouldn't leave me out in the middle of the woods on a dark night holding a bag waiting for the snipe, or would they?
Now, those new members to this thread that Frogman assured me of, are beginning to remind me of the snipe; the only difference is, I'm not in the middle of the woods on a dark night.
|
|
Did I post this quite recently? Egberto Gismonti "Sol Do Mia? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUy7UpLTKEQIt has so many musical elements that really float my boat; while the music is in Brazil, it also has African, Spanish, and Native Brazilian components (people who were there when the Europeans discovered Brazil) I like this complete album because of it's diversity and the fact that it's so together at the same time; the music speaks as a cohesive unit. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, just where are all these people you claimed would be dropping out of the sky if I never got off track? Are they coming from "Agon"? You must have a credible idea of a source. The people who posted under the various artists maybe?
I really don't expect for you to answer this because you are very selective about answering questions, but I thought I would try.
Enjoy the music.
|
Thanks for a choice clip Acman, I'll peruse all my Larry Coryell records tonight.
|
Frogman, you make the most "ludicrous" statements of anybody on this thread. "As far as I am concerned there is no room on a thread like this for making a comment "exclusively" for a specific poster; especially when others have been part of the same discussion". We respond back and forth to different individuals all the time, and I responded to a comment that Rok made. Since when do you determine the rules of engagement on this thread? I just said "Your right" because I could see that you were about to go into another of your very long "diatribes" and I thought I might head it off at the pass. Rok made the statement about the media, and I responded; that should have been the end of that. In support of your position, I respect the heck out of Orpheus' and Rok's depth of knowledge about and enthusiasm for "old school jazz" but seems needlessly restrictive to draw a circle around that and dismiss content that falls outside it...regardless of wardrobe. While I most certainly like a lot of "old school jazz", I most certainly do not dismiss content that falls outside of it...regardless of wardrobe. Seems to me Ghosthouse, that you are using Frogman's evaluations; especially when you say "Rok, and Orpheus"; we are not twins. I was just listening to this by "Chico Hamilton" and wandering how you, Ghosthouse, would classify it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI7T9EMZGYc"Old school", is that a type of jazz, or jazz that's bounded by certain dates? If you say all jazz before 2015 is "old school", that would most certainly mean that I'm "Old school". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdMnwERjG0&list=PLF2393B9681E9451AKick it Chico! Enjoy the music. |
|
|
Rok, go back to 02-19-2017 12:43 PM, and see how the "Bruha-man" used just one sentence I made in response to your statement about the media, to stir things up. I guess you'll have to hunt for that "inappropriate" statement I made that set him off.
I'm enjoying your contributions, keep em comin.
|
Frogman I'm amazed by your knowledge of this music we call "jazz". Another amazing fact is that some jazz artists, and musicians are quite educated, and articulate in the formal sense.
I have been most amazed by the ones that can't read music; it seems they had become professional musicians before they realized that wasn't a good idea. By that time, what else could they do? Think about it.
Professional musicians who can't read music are totally unbelievable; they just get up on stage and blow a whole crowd of people away. I've seen this so many times, and found it unbelievable each time.
Jazz has a wide variety of people and artists in regard to musical education.
|
Frogman, that album seemed to be in everybody's collection. My favorite cut was "Milestones", that was why I bought it. When we choose the same identical LP's, we never choose the same cuts. I noticed this ages ago, but never wanted to mention it because you might get offended. I don't think it's anything that should be offensive, just differences and similarities in two involved and advanced jazz fans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k94zDsJ-JMU Enjoy the music. |
At this time, I was working with an "Anthropologist" and I didn't even know what an anthropologist was, or did. We were working together building wire mock up for aircraft; those are the bundles of circuitry for planes; never mind if you don't understand that, the only relevance is that too diverse people were in the same place at the same time, working the same job, and that was the reason they were there. This guy was the most brilliant person I had ever been around; when he told me he was an "archeologist- anthropologist", I couldn't stop asking him questions; the first one was "What are you doing in this aircraft manufacturing plant."? He told me he was waiting for a "dig"; that's one word, meaning people pay you to dig in Africa, or somewhere when they get funding. (an awfully insecure job), and working to support himself until that happened. He talked like somebody who was born on a college university with old buildings, and any time the work slowed down, I peppered him with questions, and he always had the answers. I had just bought this Mingus album "Pithcanthrupus Erectus", and I asked him if he knew what it meant; when he told me in great detail what this meant, and how that was part of his job, I was floored. pithecanthropus 1. any primitive apelike man of the former genus Pithecanthropus, now included in the genus Homo See Java man, Peking man. When this man stood up, he was "Pithcanthrupus Erectus". Here is Charles Mingus's take on that; Mingus saw this as the first upright human being and assumed that since he was so proud of standing up, he saw himself as the ruler of the world. And as the ruler of the world, he became rather arrogant. And then, this arrogance makes a counterattack with nature, which led him into decline, and eventually he fell into extinction. That is what Charles Mingus intended for you to hear; can you hear it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB6GkA54n_QWhen this dude stood, he felt like ruler of the world. |
|
Definition: There are so many different types of definitions, that we could go crazy just defining the word "Definition". When it comes to the word "Jazz", I always explain what the word means to me "personally", as opposed to any universally acceptable definition of the word. Rok's definition was the acceptable "historical" definition up to a point in time; also, there are some jazz musicians who themselves don't like the word, and prefer "Blues Player".
I have stated "my" definition of the word, and by now, Aficionados, should know it; that should be sufficient for "communications", which is what this thread is all about. This thread is not intended for "Publication", which would mean everything has to be technically accurate.
People who post on a regular basis on this thread, "Live jazz"; it's part of their daily life, and we share what we live with one another; it is not written that we should agree. When people who have lived, and are still living a genre of music, that no one seems to know what to call it, they should not be expected to agree.
I appreciate the most recent contributions, and I will listen in depth, and get back to you on the music.
Enjoy the music.
|
I just woke up, and I see to my pleasant surprise there are a lot of posts to respond to. Frogman, this lockdown is news, been sleep since I got back from the park. Lately, lockdown is my preferred way of life, so that wont matter much. I see everyone posted top notch jazz. Now that I'm almost back to reality, it all sounds good. Unlike some vocalists, Ella never went down, she was at the top of her game throughout her entire life. Dave Brubeck, "Three's a Crowd"; this is my very first time hearing that; from 1962, that was a very good year; it was near the beginning of my decade of partying and I listened to a lot of Brubeck. Irresistible Nancy Wilson, I heard her in my dreams, that's the way I remember her. Diz, Stitt and Rollins; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4mNF1G8g6AClifford Brown and Max Roach https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt_fmhtePocRok, I must admit, there was a time when I smoked rare blends of Turkish tobacco through exotic pipes. I have enjoyed all the cuts, and tell your wife Frogman I especially enjoyed her contribution. Acman, I'm going to put that CD in the player and begin enjoying my "lockdown". Happy Lockdown everyone! |
The last time I saw Albert King was at the Western Union in downtown St. Louis collecting stacks of $100. dollar bills; that was probably 76. He wasn't doing too bad.
|
While we have differences, it's amazing how much we have in common; who would have thought we had so much in common regarding this one tune, "Chelsea Bridge".
Some of us have been wandering why we don't have more regular posters; there are more reasons than we can think of, and many that we never thought of. I communicated with someone a short time ago who told me he had been following this thread since it's beginning. I asked him why he never posted, since he was apparently a jazz "aficionado". He never gave me a straight answer, but reading between the lines, he lacked confidence in his ability to communicate in writing.
That's another reason why we had so many more hit's than posts; people are naturally lazy, and it takes some effort to communicate in writing. Whatever the reason, let me know when yall find out. In the meantime, I'm doing just fine with what we got.
Enjoy the music.
|
Thanks for those different versions of one of my favorite tunes. I liked the Paul Gonzalves version the best; it captured the mood of a bridge on a misty night, but all of them were good.
|
|
Now we're listening at a deeper level and the same music doesn't sound the same anymore, it sounds better.
|
|
Rok, I've been running into records that I'm sure you had in your collection because we used the same reviewer for buying, "Stereo Review". "Shadowfax Too Far to Whisper" was one of them that I think is a really good alternative to "Straight ahead Jazz". I've also got 3 "Cadona" albums that I'm not too sure of, plus "Old And New Dreams" with some of the same people. Just curious to know if you remember any of those albums? "Shadowfax too far to Whisper" is definitely a 4 thumbs up, while one recorded in 75 is 4 thumbs down, but all of "Shadowfax" on Windam Hill are very well recorded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr5j9a5L0A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FESYij5cfKQI found all the cuts on that album to be consistently good music worth listening to. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, shed no tears for those LP's you left in Germany and Korea because 'Stereo Review' must have hit a long dry spell about that time. Every time I down load one of those LP's, I change my mind and delete it.
|
Frogman, you made a very good case, and I am of the same opinion; even more so.
My most popular "George Benson" LP's that I bought in the "disco days", I could live without. Presently I like the self expressive guitar of Wess Montgomery, especially the trio recordings. They have the feeling of being in an intimate club, and hearing it live, plus you can sense that the music is coming from the heart.
Sometime musicians play for themselves, and this is when they sound the best; for example, when Grant Green played those spiritual recordings that are posted here somewhere, he was playing for Grant Green, and you could feel it.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Thank you Frogman, that's the exact information I was looking for; Mel Rhyne on organ adds so much to this project, that it's like Wes was on high overlooking it.
For my money, no other instrument can express so many nuances of emotion than the guitar, and when you add organ, all is complete.
|
Rok, I've discovered something that's extremely relevant to all of our "off thread" conversations; something I hope isn't true. It centers around the word "Kibuki" or to be correct "Kabuki Theater". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KabukiThis centers around what the election drama has been alleged to be, and believe me, it is very important. |
I'm glad you asked that question Mary_jo, I've wondered the same thing but never asked. |
My apologies Rok, it has absolutely nothing to do with "Japanese" theater, that's just a nickname they gave it, for being as phony as Japanese theater. I considered it to be a joke, but now I'm not so sure; there is a lot of theater, and it's for sure that's nothing to laugh about.
I bounced around on a lot of other threads to discover how many people on this forum were politically aware (informed), and I discovered next to zero. When you think about an "upper class" educated population of people who know next to nothing about what's going on in their own country, that's not good.
If there was anything "normal" about these times, I never would have brought these subjects up. I say "these" subjects, because there are many of them, and all relating to Washington DC. "All great empires crumbled from within". While that's not 100% true, it will be in this case.
You and I might be the only two people on this forum, that are even aware of the fact that at the very least, the citizens have to be concerned about what's going on in a Democracy, or it will cease to be a Democracy. When the attitude is "That's somebody else's job, not mine; my job is VTF, VTA and all that other "audiophile stuff". Well my job is "Jazz aficionado" but it also includes being an informed citizen, and when I know for a fact that something is drastically wrong, I wouldn't be a very good citizen if I didn't try to alert someone.
Actually Rok, "Saturday Night Raslin" would be a closer description than "Kabuki"; that's when they made all that noise in the ring, and went out for a drink together after the fight. Everybody has to pay more attention to what's going on.
On the subject of jazz, I liked that Freddie Hubbard; especially Hancock on piano. Most of the "offensive albums" were on the ECM label; they were the very good artists who decided to change drastically.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Frogman, with all due respect, I could not care less if there are no more regular posters on this thread or not. Whether I could care less or not, it won't make any difference. When you and Learsfool did nothing but harass me, day after day, that made no difference, but now my comments make a difference. If you just ignored my comments, they would make much less of a difference; it is you who are drawing attention to my comments. Comments are not meant for everyone who posts, but only those who are interested in such comments. While it would be nice if we had all these posters, it ain't going to happen, not because of my comments, but because it hasn't happened in 3 years; Frogman, you are using my comments as a scapegoat for your dream of all these posters, when your best bet is to ignore my comments or respond to them, but you do neither. Now, I have to respond to your comment about my comment, when if you had made a comment in regard to music, I would respond to that, and we would be on your musical discussion, but now we are a long way from your musical discussion. Ignoring a comment that's only apparently meant for one person is nothing new at all; for example, you and Learsfool could go on for days on a "classical" discussion, when this is a "jazz" thread, and I never objected. That comment would have drawn a short response, plus another comment on music would have been included; but look what we got now? You got my intentions all wrong; they are neither Republican, or Democrat, but what's wrong when they get together behind closed doors. Every body knows what "Law and Order is", but it doesn't apply to the oligarchs who steal billions. Recently, I got a prescription filled that cost over $200. which would have cost $13. not long ago. http://www.aarp.org/health/drugs-supplements/info-2015/prices-spike-for-generic-drugs.htmlThings have gotten completely out of hand, and it's neither Democrat or Republican, it's about corruption and greed; now the rich are robbing the poor, and their doing it perfectly legal like, the way the rich always do everything. Vets were being robbed by high drug prices prescribed by the VA; but as long as the rich are robbing the poor, and doing it legally, because it has been approved by the politicians, it's OK. People like me are called "Whistle Blowers". We didn't get protection from Barak Obama, and I don't think we'll get it from Donald Trump; we pay a high price for what we believe, but that's the cost of Democracy. Thank you Frogman for making this post a necessity. |
Frogman, that Mars/Venus was totally unnecessary; if you stick to the music, you will accomplish your objective.
|
Frogman, that is one beautiful album cover, and the most beautiful music to go along with it.
|
Well Rok, for whatever reason, we both celebrated; let the Frogman figure that one out.
|
Mary_jo, "The Civil Rights Movement" was far broader than anyone will ever know; it was most painful in Mississippi; "Those who talk don't know, and those who know don't talk."
|
Pryso, Eunice Waymon was a concert pianist who became a vocalist by accident.
To make a living, Eunice Waymon started playing piano at a nightclub in Atlantic City. She changed her name to "Nina Simone" to disguise herself from family members, having chosen to play "the devil's music" or so-called "cocktail piano". She was told in the nightclub that she would have to sing to her own accompaniment.
I might be the only person who enjoys her piano to the point where I focus on that as much as her vocals.
|
Frogman, I know you're too young to remember this, but once upon a time there was a thing called a party line; this was when a number of people talked on the same line. If you picked up your phone and heard conversation, you simply hung up your phone. This is kind of the same thing; when somebody is addressing another person on this thread, you know that post isn't for you, and you simply ignore it; would that work for you. Just kidding, I know it won't, but I'm just trying to be creative, maybe you can come up with a better idea.
|
All of Frogman's comments in regard to my comments on politics are moot; if you don't believe me, ask Rok.
If he had stayed out, this wouldn't be going on.
|
Frogman, the only way you're going to quit shooting yourself in the foot, is to run out of bullets.
|
You just got to keep the faith, more "aficionados" than you can shake a stick at are on the way; just got to stick to the script and never get off subject. BTW Alex, keep em comin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiSIQzwIPzQThe sun will come out tomorrow. |
Rok, that was some real honest to goodness "New Music" Chico Freeman is so original; that's on order, and I know it will get a lot of repeat play.
|
I was listening to Etta Jones, "Don't Go To Strangers" and it was sounding so good; that made me think of the fact that good music never gets old. I heard this in 65 for the first time, and it sounds just as good, if not better today, than when I heard it then. Personnel: Etta Jones: vocals; Frank Wess: flute, tenor saxophone; Richard Wyands: piano; Skeeter Best: guitar; George Duvivier: bass; Roy Haynes: drums. Not just the vocals, but every note was singing; that caused me to think about the musicians on that album; they are stellar. Sometime I don't listen to the musicians as much as I did today, but if you focus on the music, the album will sound even better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBLaJtXbpRgEnjoy the music. |
I'm gonna tell Frogman on Yall! This is definitely an "off topic" conversation. Is that you over there Frogman, I know you're not joining in this off topic conversation?
And to think, I just heard there was a herd of aficionados coming this way; no, they don't come in herds, but there was a bunch of em. Now I got it, there is a posse of aficionados riding on a herd of horses coming this way. Should I head them off at the pass, before they see you right in the middle of that "off topic" rig a maro?
What should I do Frogman?
|
I ask you in all honesty aficionados, was the Frogman's last post on, or off track? Was it "Kosure" according to his latest, for lack of a better word, "rantings"? Before I go into a long diatribe, I will wait for your response.
|
