Frogman, when I saw your 4’33" link and the video from Alex, I thought for a sec that my speakers went crazy. ;) You two gave me huge laugh though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfsmmk93H3I And yes, I am perfectly aware of the fact that intense debate can improve the entire communication and boost everyone’s creativity so do not worry about that. I just do not want to ’hurt’ anybody in the process. :-) Also, thank you for your words of support, you have so soft and gentle touch in your expressions, as if you play music along. This is you talking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldTIXsCXJhc Few posts before, you have written something what I find very important and what is not to be missed. „Do an artist’s personal controversies diminish the art?“ Smart people say that an artist personal controversies should not diminish it’s work as long as the work itself does not reflect the possible bad character of an artist or as long as the work itself does not contain the amoral or similar stuff which could be found in the life of an artist. This obviously means that the work of an art can stand for itself and exist almost as a non material human being with it’s own ’life’ that is completely separated from it’s creator. But still, if you observe things on extreme examples (mild ones are easy to handle), would you think the same? If I take Hitler for instance, could I admire his paintings even if I am aware of his monstrosity at the same time? Certainly not. Back to music... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCDMQqDUtv4 „Tryin’ to make it real, compared to what? C’mon baby!“ Wish you all nice day... |
orpheus: "Irony of ironies Mary_jo; I don’t guess you knew that you posted one of Rok’s most favorite tunes? Compared to What."
Indeed an irony because I didn’t have a clue. Otherwise I would not post it.
Nice title Rok gave me. Jazz Queen of Croatia. I am impressed.
After few days of conversation he decides to clear the confusion. Wow. The confusion that he started in the first place. What a man.
Clearly I was not trying to mock of Billie and if it sounded like that, I could have been asked to clear the things.
The defense rests it’s case.
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It's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Definitely. |
I so like it what Orpheus has recently posted on Gene Harris. And I have gone through Alex’s Don Sleet again, sharing Frogman’s opinion on this one. Very nice. If beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder, so does music should lie in the ears of the listener. However, it’s always interesting to observe the way other people see ’my kind of a music’, so the beauty lies in the differences as well. And thank you Frogman for the kind words again. Croatia is indeed pretty. But pity that Croatian people have forgotten to appreciate and nurture what they have so constant race for profit has overpowered the need of preserving the beauty. Pretty pity. It’s raining today... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSh11ZzvKOwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOpD8SOAJnM |
0-10, judging by the way how it started (virus), nobody knew for sure how things would turn out to be. But know, (I am referring to our place) almost everything is fine so I see no reason why restrictions, in many ways, could not be cancelled. If it would be necessary one can always impose them again. Squeeze and let go style. Masks, gloves at older people still ok and at younger people if they have older ones or anyone with chronic d. (like I have) around. All in all, at this point, I see no point in further lockdown here.
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Cassandra’s voice. I like it. She has been described by critic Gary Giddins as "a singer blessed with an unmistakable timbre and attack [who has] expanded the playing field" by incorporating blues, country, and folk music into her work. ~ source, Wiki |
That is nice song. Remember.
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***A humorous footnote: at 3:50 check out the two saxophone players in the front row with the Bros dancing on their tables. The alto player on screen left is cool as a cucumber. The tenor player on his left is a little freaked out as if saying “Holy sh#t , don’t hit me”***
:))))))
If the guy who was freaked out, have had a slide saxophone, one could only guess what would have happened to the dancer...
Pity I can’t find the link of the Snub’s ’The man with the funny little horn’... |
0-10, I get your point. So I said that I was referring to our place here.
As for the way of living, people in Croatia certainly do not live in penthouses, but very often 2 to 4 generations live under the same roof (family houses). Talking about close proximity. We also "suffer" from the lack of discipline so if anyone did not care about restrictions and measures when needed, that would certainly be dam* Balkan people.
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pryso, I like that one. I guess one can't be wrong when it comes to honey. :--) |
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:)))))
Noo, do not stop, just keep on joking... |
I've been
following the recent discussion carefully and find All of you important, he**, even the 'irascible uncle' is important.
Orpheus,
I do have my list and haven't mentioned it since I've thought (and still do) that few
would care, I mean, what's newbie has to say, really... But since you have
brought up the subject, here is the list:
First
place again by Paul Desmond
The
Wonderful World of Jazz by John Lewis
Kind of
Blue by Miles Davis
So Much
Guitar by Wes Montgomery
Mercy,
Mercy, Mercy! Live at 'The Club' by Cannonball
Know What I Mean? by
Cannonball
Winter
Moon by Art Pepper
Midnight
Blue by Kenny Burrell
Let's
get lost by Chet Baker
Alone
Together by Chet Baker
Chet by
Chet Baker
The Legendary Sessions by Chet Baker and Bill Evans
But Beautiful by
Bill Evans and Stan Getz
Duke
Ellington & John Coltrane by Duke and John
John
Coltrane and Johnny Hartman by John and Johnny Blue Train by Trane
Time Out
by Dave Brubeck Quartet ...
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I enjoyed both links pryso, thank you and yes you have noticed it well, Chet seems to appear more often on the list I’ve posted. It is not that I do not admire other giants and not that I don’t appreciate other instruments besides the trumpet (after all, the instruments are just the means through which the player’s expression flows) but when I hear a trumpet in jazz, my heart starts to pump a bit faster. A small child tells to his mother: When I grow up, I will be a trumpeter. A mother responds to him: Well my dear, you know you can’t do both. And this is how I see Chet when he plays, as an adult man who nurtures his inner child in everything he does, and at some point refusing to grow up. But this is just ’my version of Chet’ of course. However and as I have already said, this does not prevent me from liking others. For instance, Peppe in his recordings goes beyond words... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYFmUVl_f0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPn7TERvg0Q I could go on and on... Orpheus This is so good, it is bluesy/jazzy. I have to paste it again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCVg1UOADO8&list=RDOCVg1UOADO8 Desmond in blue, have heard it before, great record. Frogman : ), I was hoping one would not notice it, but it would be almost impossible not to agree with the Alex’s taste in music, since he posts beautiful music. Once again, thank you all for the support, jafant, thank you too. |
I agree with Ps, ’cause a statement that a player is not good just because he or she is unknown to a wider audience is in the best case pure generalization, a stereotype by which one underestimates someone’s work. I’ll quote Ps: "If something is "undiscovered" it is precisely that." Very nice Stan Getz & Chick Corea, Frogman, thank you. Chick Corea is new to me. Pryso, Sandoval also new to me... On Dizzy: I was never the fan of Dizzy but if God himself tells me that this is not good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVVc-41D5GQ I would tell him: You are crazy. (Song: the peak at 5:21 in video) Can you please tell me who are the other players with Dizzy on this one? ’Cause I always seem to forget to mention other players when mentioning ’the star’ and this is so wrong of me ’cause everybody else in the process contribute in making the main man, main.
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Frogman,
I have a friend who share your opinion on this subject. The man is extremely smart, and I have no reason to doubt his mind in general. What I want to say that in 90% of the cases I agree with him on various subjects but sometimes and at some point, I disagree with him. Meaning, even though You are smart, we do not have to agree on everything and not entirely here. There could be somebody worth of knowing but remained unknown for various reasons, there could be somebody who simply does not want to be seen. And last but not least, if this unknown man or a woman played 'one single note' differently than for instance Trane, Miles, Getz, Peppe (and so on), then they would be worth of my attention.
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Frogman, ok, good, now I understand you better. Things are much clearer, if not completely.
One more thing:
"Have there been musicians of the artistic caliber of a Satchmo, Bird, Miles, Sonny Rollins, Trane, Bill Evans and, yes, Ornette Coleman, or even the “tier” below (Johnny Griffin) that slipped through the cracks and were never discovered or have been forgotten? Not a chance in hell."
It is as if you are saying: If the unknown one had been good enough (meaning great), we would have heard about him for sure.
And it is also as if we should not ’dig’ any further, ’cause it is already all there what is to listen. I know that you do not mean this but a bit sounded like this. : )
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Alex, I think that you haven’t said anything on which Frogman would not agree. Pity you cannot see it. You and Frogman talk the same but just from other perspectives.
p.s. But your last sentence is somehow, unnecessary.
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While Paul Desmond’s "Taste Of Honey" is so sublime that I must have it, I don’t think it captures the intended spirit of the tune. I think the spirit of the tune should be seductive, like Woody Herman’s; one can not stop with just one taste of that honey, it always calls for just one more taste of honey. It has always been interesting to see how the same music affects us diferently. As much as I like Woody Herman’s Taste of Honey, I agree with pryso here. Melancholy would be the word I am searching for. And this feeling lives in Paul Desmond’s album. Suitable for the ancient history. Well, it is ancient. The seductive tune I would patch to later times or even better, to present time. Something like this is coming to my mind. Hm, good verb though. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EmlOh4uNpLUI saw this tune for the first time when you posted it I think about year ago. Nope, about two years ago... |
Orpheus, my first intention was to use the word ’magic’ at the end of the sentence "I guess the music does the same..." Instead of me, you used that word several times. And I wanted to post the link you posted but thought that somebody else might do it.
And that is a particular moment in time.
A magic. |
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I was following your discussion, great thoughts you have and very interesting links you posted Frogman. I also thought that the use (of course non intentional) of four bars of music is perfectly legal. Must dig more into the subject.
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Thank you Frogman for your reply. Louis sings on this one also, as you would say, with the gravel in his voice but notice the quote from Duke Ellington on the beginning of the clip: "He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way." I haven’t read much of his biography, if you don’t count what I’ve read along the way, but if he has such a reputation, so I admire him more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyLjbMBpGDA On ’new sound and recordings’ I am probably not the right one to make any judgement on this one but looking from my personal perspective (there I can babble as much as I want still staying ’alive’ while doing it), mostly what I hear in ’new jazz’ I find a bit sterile (as if music is too clean). One could say that I haven’t heard much so cannot be competent but still what I hear is that a song sounds as if it could have been completely computer generated without human involvement - this I do not feel when listenin’ ’old jazz’. I guess too much technical work on piece of music kills the fun. |
pryso, thank you for this recommendation, I remember your post mentioning the concert in San Diego... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGsVqF-URXcThe ’content’ (if you allow yourself to be imaginative) on this one is actually similar to the one of J.J. Cale in his Tijuana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub1SGEVP6oA"Just below San Diego Tijuana, land of broken dreams Senoritas dancing in the moonlight Flashing Spanish dark eyes to everyone, it seems They say "Hey, gringo Can you take us across the border Just tell them I’m your daughter Of a local." It is just the way of how the musicians express themselves through the music styles, that differs. Mingus adds on this one the flavor of Spanish flamenco perpetuating Ysabel’s table dance which in a way brings these two songs together if you look upon the lyrics in the work of Cale. Olé! |
orpheus, have not heard for the particular piece (ain’t that a surprise ;) ), enjoyed very much listening and was intrigued by the title that made me wonder about this 27th Man. Thank you for posting it. Another one from Horace, remarkable music if I may say: Horace Silver - Señor Blues (Horace Silver, Blue Mitchell & Junior Cook) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8jFGFwOm7kHorace Silver - piano Blue Mitchell - trumpet Junior Cook - tenor sax Gene Taylor - bass Louis Hayes - drums *** How is your health? I hope you feel better... |
Irascible uncle (code name E.T.), knows something that the rest of us do not know...posted 'War is coming'. Off I go to buy some groceries just to secure myself up. |
True, extraordinary
jam session! :-)
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schubert...I do not think that she is actually playing it. Recuerdos is a challenging piece to perform (well) on a classical guitar. It takes time to learn it on the level of the beginner, more time to learn it on the intermediate level, years to learn it on advance level and many devoted years to master it. The piece is hard because of left hand position which is not easy and right hand tremolo technique which is challenging classical guitar technique for many classical guitarists. In tremolo one plays bass notes with the thumb followed by three (or two depending on the chosen technique) repeated higher notes, plucked with the ring, middle and index finger. Although you must not move your right hand but fingers only, you can see that fingers are dancing at the player that actually performs the tremolo. |
p.s. I like Gene Harris but can't open the links. Is it age restricted content? I am probably under age.
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A few days ago, I read an interesting interview with Goran Tomljenovic, Croatian designer of ultra-high-end loudspeakers and I found in the article some interesting facts that are in some way related to your debate about how different materials affect the sound quality of the saxophone. Goran’s speakers are interesting because they are in principle a horn loudspeaker which as main element uses an acoustic horn, as well as many brass and woodwind musical instruments (link: https://www.facebook.com/Ring-Audio-159138464215165/ ) Those speakers (Ring Audio’s Master Horn Jazz - MH Jazz to acquaintances) are very nice, but also very expensive and cost around 20 thousand US dollars. Asked if the material was important for sound quality, Goran was very clear. He said that their horn loudspeakers are made of different materials - wood, composite materials, ceramics, ... but it does not matter to the sound quality at all. Moreover, he emphasized that it is only important that the material from which the horn is made must be, so to speak, “ACOUSTICALLY DEAD”, i.e. for the material itself it is crucial that its resonant frequency is BELOW THE AUDIBLE LEVEL. Also, the material from which the horn is made, must not affect the resonance of the air INSIDE the horn channel. The only thing that matters to acoustic horn is channel shape, high measuring accuracy, and great precision craftsmanship. This is quite opposite to the many other musical instrument. Usually, the instrument box (body of the instrument) must resonate so that we can hear something at all. For example, the guitar string causes the soundboard (upper and lower plate) and sound box to vibrate, and they strengthen the vibrations of the strings and amplify sound. With the acoustic guitar, the choice of materials is crucial for the sound quality. For saxophone, the material is not important for the sound quality, this is more important for durability, playability, wear resistance, corrosion resistance, etc. And of course, for seller marketing tricks. Here I must quote Stephen Howard who wisely commented on another forum where there is a similar discussion of whether the material affects the sound quality of sax: “After decades of comparing otherwise identical horns - the only difference being the body material - I’ve come to the conclusion that the answer to this thorny question is - Yes...but only if you’ve paid more for it". Same as with wine. If the price on the wine bottle is higher, people like it more. Even when all the bottles that they have tested, contain exactly the same wine. |
orpheus, I like the hypnotic rhythm of dr. John, I feel like he brings us on the path which we simply cannot resist not to follow till the very end. And then, when we finally feel Gris - Gris anesthetized (he is doctor after all), we are ready to wrap our troubles into dreams: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo7l9FgVN34 *.* blink, blink |
@frogman I'm glad you like my last post and thanks
for the positive comment. I agree with your opinion that the execution of the design
is very important. Nice example with vintage Louis Lot flutes. Also, I agree
with you that mouthpiece, reed, and ligature can have a significant effect on
the response and sound of the instrument, much bigger effect than, for example,
a silver or gold plating. After all, those parts are sound generating portion
of the instrument.
“However, I doubt that when a player
(Parker) is looking for money for his next fix that he is worried about the
material used for his ligature. He would use tape or a shoestring if he had to.”
When I read this, could not stop laughing
for five minutes. This just might be the truth. When he needed the money for
the next fix, Charlie probably didn’t care much about the whole saxophone, let
alone the ligature. This was probably the reason why he had pawned his
saxophone and replaced it with the cheap plastic Grafton.
One question arises here related to the Grafton
sax. Why did this strange plastic beast die out? Contrary to popular belief, Grafton’s
sax did not die out due to the bad quality of the tone that it’s plastic body
produces. The Grafton had very good musical properties and therefore was played,
as it is mentioned here before, by some of the biggest legends of Jazz, by
Charlie Parker and Ornette Coleman. Although this cheap sax was never intended
to be used as a professional instrument, it found its way into the professional
'hall of fame' and that was probably much more than the designer could have ever
hoped for. The main reason that these horns disappeared so quickly was in their
fragility and unreliability and they were extremely difficult to repair - very
little seems to want to stick to plastic body. Grafton visionary sax was made
of a plastic that had little better impact-resistance than a wine glass. It was
made from acrylic plastic and it is one of the most brittle plastic ever made. Grafton
designer selected this type of plastic not because this material had some
special musical properties but simply because it was cheap, and it was easy to
work with. Here I have to quote again woodwind repairer Mr. Stephen Howard - TheSaxDoctor:
“There are no any mystical properties of
the body material…………. it really doesn't matter what the body is made from -
rather it's because the flaws in the construction knacker the tone. With much
blood, sweat and tears (and a considerable amount of swearing) I can get a
Grafton to play so well that it's indistinguishable from a decent brass alto.”
And that's exactly what I wanted to say in
the last post. The material from which the sax-body is made of is far less
important than the sax - manufacturers try to convince us.
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Mary Jo,
I tired them all, and they opened. Must be a Balkans thing. Still, I will do what you were doing. Few more hours and they will be exhausted. I just need to stay focused. Great Basie. |
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Ale, thank you for posting more of Hawes... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkvkePuzSzgOrpheus, I am very glad that you like Mona Ki Ngi Xica... Pryso, haven’t noticed that, maybe I have just missed it or registered myself much later. Will surely check that and get back to you afterwards. |
Since we are shortly on this track, due to link of Alex... “It is not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize, accept, and celebrate those differences.” ― Audre Lorde Billie, Strange Fruit... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Web007rzSOI... There where people abandon us, music starts... |
p.s.
pryso, I am lost in the translation. I was browsing through the thread a lot but was not able to find the reference to the Buena Vista Social Club...(I've been following you since last December) |
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I'm not a big band fan, but that was absolutely fantastic; Dizzy Gillespie with the Kenny Clarke / Francy Boland Big Band, Denmark - November 4, 1970. Could not agree with you more 0-10. |
"Two many great white rock and roll artist for that to
be true. Elvis, Early Beatles, Elton John etc...."
True but that was obviously just a phrase.
However, don't let the cover of their skin mislead you.
"Rock&Roll, as I have said before, was mainly about
teenage life and love. Everything from
fast cars to broken hearts to slow drag at the prom."
So what? That's life too. And when we grow old, we sometimes
act like kids again. So what? That's life again with it's ups and downs.
„Rock was always political in nature. The anti music. Violent and cynical. Without Viet Nam and the civil rights
violence, it's possible there would have been no such thing as Rock.“
I think pryso explained that.
„It was not a happy or uplifting music. All your clips show this.“
Nor Jazz is always happy music. I see Rock in a way our lives are and Jazz in a way our lives should be. I cannot explain that. Let's just say that Rock is 'too rocky' and Jazz is exactly how it should be. Case rest.
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Pryso, you
have noticed it well, Child in time from Deep Purple borders with heavy metal. I
haven't thought about this before since the song stays long enough in the range
of the hard rock which is ok for me since I am not fan of the heavy metal. But you
are quite 'an Ear', it seems that hardly anything can pass beyond your radars.
Orpheus,
I am glad you like Carlos Santana. This might be latino rock which is kind of
'soft' in the comparison to the mainly 'hard listing' of mine. I mostly picked rock with strong accent on the guitar and a bit aggressive vocal due
to uncle's comment about the rock of being too noisy.
But Santana
definitely has a touch. You surely have a well cared style.
Santana,
Black magic woman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyQUCYl-ocs
And Frogman,
man, that was absolutely great post, I enjoyed very much reading. You know the stuff. Nothing to add nor subtract there.
You have said it all.
Shaping
the world (music) exclusively according to one's own preferences and seeing it
through one's eyes only, would be leastwise, boring not to say limited.
How can
you not to love this:
Art
Pepper, The Prisoner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5utT5yiQAOo
This
Erik Satie,
Gnossienne
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUAF3abGY2M
This
Mighty
Sam McClain - When The Hurt Is Over
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4YPMiFaPWo
Or this
at the same time
Bob
Dylan - Knockin' On Heaven's Door
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bWzyiU-S_w
Uuuuuu,
uuuu.....
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Hmmm mk2 what? The first link of Santana that Orpheus listed was ’soft’ in comparison to my hard rock listing (if i do not count Beatles). Soft does not mean less good but means less hard, you wise guy.
p.s.
As the answer that you 'requested':
There is nothing wrong with my listing of rock. If you think that you know better, just check Frogman’s post about it. You obviously skipped it. |
I wanted to do the same. Not in military language, of course... |
